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	<title>Comments on: A Paradise for Children?</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Alas, a blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Link Farm &#38; Open Thread #46</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/comment-page-1/#comment-188186</link>
		<dc:creator>Alas, a blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Link Farm &#38; Open Thread #46</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Feb 2007 12:26:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/#comment-188186</guid>
		<description>[...] Crooked Timber: Why Are Dutch Children The Happiest, Healthiest Kids In The Industrialized World? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] Crooked Timber: Why Are Dutch Children The Happiest, Healthiest Kids In The Industrialized World? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Far Away</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/comment-page-1/#comment-187590</link>
		<dc:creator>Far Away</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:02:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/#comment-187590</guid>
		<description>Relative poverty in this case is the percentage of children living in households with &quot;equivalised income&quot; less than 50% of the median.  So to reduce relative poverty you have to increase income at the bottom of the income scale.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Relative poverty in this case is the percentage of children living in households with &#8220;equivalised income&#8221; less than 50% of the median.  So to reduce relative poverty you have to increase income at the bottom of the income scale.</p>
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		<title>By: magistra</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/comment-page-1/#comment-187207</link>
		<dc:creator>magistra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Feb 2007 09:25:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/#comment-187207</guid>
		<description>Having looked at the whole report, relative poverty is only one aspect of material well-being that&#039;s being measured (which in turn is only one of 6 different factors). The study of this factor also looks at children living in housholds with no-one in employment (on which the US does relatively well), and measures of specific possessions (where the US is dragged down by a relatively large number of households with almost no books). It seems to me that the report authors are therefore trying quite hard to provide an indicator more realistic than either absolute or relative povery on their own.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Having looked at the whole report, relative poverty is only one aspect of material well-being that&#8217;s being measured (which in turn is only one of 6 different factors). The study of this factor also looks at children living in housholds with no-one in employment (on which the US does relatively well), and measures of specific possessions (where the US is dragged down by a relatively large number of households with almost no books). It seems to me that the report authors are therefore trying quite hard to provide an indicator more realistic than either absolute or relative povery on their own.</p>
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		<title>By: radek</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/comment-page-1/#comment-187171</link>
		<dc:creator>radek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Feb 2007 23:08:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/#comment-187171</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;but relative seems right to me (contra radek et al) if comparing only developed countries&lt;/i&gt;

Even if absolute poverty and relative poverty are NEGATIVELY related? In developed countries?
(which is the case for 2000 data if you look at just continental Europe w/o EE)

&lt;i&gt;since that has been declared verboten&lt;/i&gt;

It has? Anyway there&#039;s no implied relationships between Gini coefficients, relative poverty and absolute poverty. If one of them changes in one way the others may do whatever they want. Furthermore, even if you&#039;re looking at just the Gini and it goes up, you can&#039;t really say that inequality has increased - the Lorenz curves could  cross, unless you&#039;re willing to make stronger assuumptions.
On top of that you can monkey around with the absolute and relative poverty measures by switching the threshold. So two absolute poverty measures can be negatively related. All this basically opens the door wide open to data manipulation in order to score ideological points and screams out for sensitivity analysis (which when you do, you get a big mess and no clear answer, but hey, that&#039;s life)

I might hafta write something up about all this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>but relative seems right to me (contra radek et al) if comparing only developed countries</i></p>

	<p>Even if absolute poverty and relative poverty are <span class="caps">NEGATIVELY</span> related? In developed countries?<br />
(which is the case for 2000 data if you look at just continental Europe w/o EE)</p>

	<p><i>since that has been declared verboten</i></p>

	<p>It has? Anyway there&#8217;s no implied relationships between Gini coefficients, relative poverty and absolute poverty. If one of them changes in one way the others may do whatever they want. Furthermore, even if you&#8217;re looking at just the Gini and it goes up, you can&#8217;t really say that inequality has increased &#8211; the Lorenz curves could  cross, unless you&#8217;re willing to make stronger assuumptions.<br />
On top of that you can monkey around with the absolute and relative poverty measures by switching the threshold. So two absolute poverty measures can be negatively related. All this basically opens the door wide open to data manipulation in order to score ideological points and screams out for sensitivity analysis (which when you do, you get a big mess and no clear answer, but hey, that&#8217;s life)</p>

	<p>I might hafta write something up about all this.</p>
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		<title>By: amcors</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/comment-page-1/#comment-187167</link>
		<dc:creator>amcors</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Feb 2007 22:20:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/#comment-187167</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t want to start a debate on relative poverty in this thread, since that has been declared verboten.  But I&#039;ve been scratching my head about several of the metrics in the UNICEF report since Wednesday, especially relative poverty, and would love to have answers, or links to answers, or whatever is appropariate.

The specific points that I don&#039;t understand are...
- Doesn&#039;t this imply that if we changed a society&#039;s Gini coefficient while keeping family sizes constant, the relative poverty of its children would be unchanged?
- Isn&#039;t it difficult to interpret this stat without a measure of the family resources available to each child in multi-child households?
- Doesn&#039;t relative poverty lend itself to strange composition and decomposition effects?
- Insofar as family size is partially determined by  how much resources a family feels it can devote to raising children, won&#039;t we partially be measuring the resources of below-median families?

Maybe I&#039;m misunderstanding the metric.  &quot;Relative child poverty&quot; is the percentage of children who in families with below median income, correct?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t want to start a debate on relative poverty in this thread, since that has been declared verboten.  But I&#8217;ve been scratching my head about several of the metrics in the <span class="caps">UNICEF</span> report since Wednesday, especially relative poverty, and would love to have answers, or links to answers, or whatever is appropariate.</p>

	<p>The specific points that I don&#8217;t understand are&#8230; &#8211; Doesn&#8217;t this imply that if we changed a society&#8217;s Gini coefficient while keeping family sizes constant, the relative poverty of its children would be unchanged? &#8211; Isn&#8217;t it difficult to interpret this stat without a measure of the family resources available to each child in multi-child households? &#8211; Doesn&#8217;t relative poverty lend itself to strange composition and decomposition effects? &#8211; Insofar as family size is partially determined by  how much resources a family feels it can devote to raising children, won&#8217;t we partially be measuring the resources of below-median families?</p>

	<p>Maybe I&#8217;m misunderstanding the metric.  &#8220;Relative child poverty&#8221; is the percentage of children who in families with below median income, correct?</p>
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		<title>By: PJ</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/comment-page-1/#comment-187134</link>
		<dc:creator>PJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Feb 2007 17:57:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/#comment-187134</guid>
		<description>If you look at the under 19 mortality for Ireland I would imagine that the excess deaths are almost certainly due to the less than safe roads and odd provisional licence system (ah, your second licence because you couldn&#039;t pass on your first - please feel free to drive anyway).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If you look at the under 19 mortality for Ireland I would imagine that the excess deaths are almost certainly due to the less than safe roads and odd provisional licence system (ah, your second licence because you couldn&#8217;t pass on your first &#8211; please feel free to drive anyway).</p>
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		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/comment-page-1/#comment-187129</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Feb 2007 16:55:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/#comment-187129</guid>
		<description>right -- and American kids start driving the day they turn 16, if not earlier, and my understanding is that the fatality rate plummets even between the ages of 16 and 18. This really is a case where the kids&#039; values (they really really want to drive) go against the values of the evaluators. The evaluators are right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>right&#8212;and American kids start driving the day they turn 16, if not earlier, and my understanding is that the fatality rate plummets even between the ages of 16 and 18. This really is a case where the kids&#8217; values (they really really want to drive) go against the values of the evaluators. The evaluators are right.</p>
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		<title>By: jasper emmering</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/comment-page-1/#comment-187125</link>
		<dc:creator>jasper emmering</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Feb 2007 16:16:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/#comment-187125</guid>
		<description>Re: low motor vehicle deaths

A possible explanation could be that in the Netherlands relatively few teenagers drive cars. 

You can&#039;t get your license until you&#039;re 18, taking the exam is expensive, getting the lessons before you take the exam is very expensive, and finally cars are very expensive (high taxes and strict safety checks).

Then there&#039;s the simple fact that Holland is very well suited for cycling, being both compact and flat. Parking, on the other hand, sucks. Also, public transport is pretty good. 

Finally, all Dutch students (used to) have access to &lt;i&gt;free&lt;/i&gt; public transport as part of their student grant. The program has been cut back so these days students have to choose between free transport on weekdays or on weekends.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Re: low motor vehicle deaths</p>

	<p>A possible explanation could be that in the Netherlands relatively few teenagers drive cars.</p>

	<p>You can&#8217;t get your license until you&#8217;re 18, taking the exam is expensive, getting the lessons before you take the exam is very expensive, and finally cars are very expensive (high taxes and strict safety checks).</p>

	<p>Then there&#8217;s the simple fact that Holland is very well suited for cycling, being both compact and flat. Parking, on the other hand, sucks. Also, public transport is pretty good.</p>

	<p>Finally, all Dutch students (used to) have access to <i>free</i> public transport as part of their student grant. The program has been cut back so these days students have to choose between free transport on weekdays or on weekends.</p>
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		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/comment-page-1/#comment-187122</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:32:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/#comment-187122</guid>
		<description>The relative/absolute poverty issue is indeed complex. I&#039;d go for absolute poverty if we were comparing developing countries, but relative seems right to me (contra radek et al) if comparing only developed countries, in which relative position has more impact on one&#039;s life chance than in developing countries, and absolute poverty is rare. I&#039;m not interested in defending that yet again (so will not respond to objections). BUT if you grant me that relative poverty is the right metric, might it be hard to give it the same weight across the countries being compared? In a country where the poor are despised (the US) and in which population sparsity is such that it really is much harder for the (relatively) poor to access certain public goods (parks, polling booths, low-ish price grocery stores where non-poor people shop, half-decent quality subsidised public transportation etc) it might be a good deal worse to be relatively poor than in some others where either the poor are not despised or where, even though they are, publicly funded public goods are more readily accessible to them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The relative/absolute poverty issue is indeed complex. I&#8217;d go for absolute poverty if we were comparing developing countries, but relative seems right to me (contra radek et al) if comparing only developed countries, in which relative position has more impact on one&#8217;s life chance than in developing countries, and absolute poverty is rare. I&#8217;m not interested in defending that yet again (so will not respond to objections). <span class="caps">BUT</span> if you grant me that relative poverty is the right metric, might it be hard to give it the same weight across the countries being compared? In a country where the poor are despised (the US) and in which population sparsity is such that it really is much harder for the (relatively) poor to access certain public goods (parks, polling booths, low-ish price grocery stores where non-poor people shop, half-decent quality subsidised public transportation etc) it might be a good deal worse to be relatively poor than in some others where either the poor are not despised or where, even though they are, publicly funded public goods are more readily accessible to them.</p>
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		<title>By: Brendan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/comment-page-1/#comment-187110</link>
		<dc:creator>Brendan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:41:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/#comment-187110</guid>
		<description>Sorry: multiple posting, but from the report: &#039;the likelihood of a child being injured or killed is
associated with poverty, single parenthood, low maternal education, low maternal age at birth, poor housing, weak family ties, and parental
drug or alcohol abuse.&#039;

Note, however that this relationship must be complex: after all, the UK has terrible (comparatively) relative poverty rates, and yet, except for Sweden, it is the safest of all countries for childhood injuries and accidents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sorry: multiple posting, but from the report: &#8216;the likelihood of a child being injured or killed is<br />
associated with poverty, single parenthood, low maternal education, low maternal age at birth, poor housing, weak family ties, and parental<br />
drug or alcohol abuse.&#8217;</p>

	<p>Note, however that this relationship must be complex: after all, the UK has terrible (comparatively) relative poverty rates, and yet, except for Sweden, it is the safest of all countries for childhood injuries and accidents.</p>
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		<title>By: Brendan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/comment-page-1/#comment-187109</link>
		<dc:creator>Brendan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:34:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/#comment-187109</guid>
		<description>&#039;Out of curiousity, has this reason been proved?&#039;

There is a paper (i don&#039;t have the reference at the moment) but which carried out this research on the airline industry in the States. I could hunt it out if you want. I hope it&#039;s accurate because I used it to develop a key argument in my last book. 

When you see that it&#039;s airlines (and in one country, moreover, a country where health and safety in the industry is fairly highly regulated) you can see why management is not such an issue. In a very high technology industry, generally speaking, the the more modern the technology, the safer it will be. Firms with high profits can afford to buy all these new gizmos and technologies: firms with low profits or which are running at a loss, cannot. 

I am extrapolating wildly to apply this to households, but it might be an interesting topic of research.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8216;Out of curiousity, has this reason been proved?&#8217;</p>

	<p>There is a paper (i don&#8217;t have the reference at the moment) but which carried out this research on the airline industry in the States. I could hunt it out if you want. I hope it&#8217;s accurate because I used it to develop a key argument in my last book.</p>

	<p>When you see that it&#8217;s airlines (and in one country, moreover, a country where health and safety in the industry is fairly highly regulated) you can see why management is not such an issue. In a very high technology industry, generally speaking, the the more modern the technology, the safer it will be. Firms with high profits can afford to buy all these new gizmos and technologies: firms with low profits or which are running at a loss, cannot.</p>

	<p>I am extrapolating wildly to apply this to households, but it might be an interesting topic of research.</p>
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		<title>By: taylor</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/comment-page-1/#comment-187100</link>
		<dc:creator>taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Feb 2007 04:26:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/#comment-187100</guid>
		<description>Re. the boy who stuck his finger in the dike: When I lived in Amsterdam, I asked one or two Dutch friends about this story, and they had never heard of it.  Internet sources say that the story is an invention of an American writer, Mary Mapes Dodge, and is from her novel &quot;Hans Brinker, or The Silver Skates&quot;, published in 1865.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Re. the boy who stuck his finger in the dike: When I lived in Amsterdam, I asked one or two Dutch friends about this story, and they had never heard of it.  Internet sources say that the story is an invention of an American writer, Mary Mapes Dodge, and is from her novel &#8220;Hans Brinker, or The Silver Skates&#8221;, published in 1865.</p>
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		<title>By: Eli Rabett</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/comment-page-1/#comment-187092</link>
		<dc:creator>Eli Rabett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Feb 2007 02:25:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/#comment-187092</guid>
		<description>Let me throw in something that has not been commented on.  The Netherlands has excellent public transport and is very bike friendly.  This means that about from the age of what? 10 or even earlier kids are not dependent on their parents to get everywhere.  

It made a major difference in my life (grew up in NYC) that I could get anywhere I wanted in the city with little effort.  (at that time it was also pretty safe to ride my bike through the streets). Must have driven my mom spare.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Let me throw in something that has not been commented on.  The Netherlands has excellent public transport and is very bike friendly.  This means that about from the age of what? 10 or even earlier kids are not dependent on their parents to get everywhere.</p>

	<p>It made a major difference in my life (grew up in <span class="caps">NYC</span>) that I could get anywhere I wanted in the city with little effort.  (at that time it was also pretty safe to ride my bike through the streets). Must have driven my mom spare.</p>
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		<title>By: radek</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/comment-page-1/#comment-187080</link>
		<dc:creator>radek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Feb 2007 23:29:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/#comment-187080</guid>
		<description>In a category entitled &quot;material well being&quot; you should be looking at absolute poverty. I guess you could put relative poverty in the category &quot;subjective well being&quot; or somethin&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In a category entitled &#8220;material well being&#8221; you should be looking at absolute poverty. I guess you could put relative poverty in the category &#8220;subjective well being&#8221; or somethin&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: C L O S E R &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Children of the world: Unite! (and come to the Netherlands all of you)</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/comment-page-1/#comment-187078</link>
		<dc:creator>C L O S E R &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Children of the world: Unite! (and come to the Netherlands all of you)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Feb 2007 23:12:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/a-paradise-for-children/#comment-187078</guid>
		<description>[...] we can analyze why this is the case but I will leave that to others. Besides the questions asked by Ingrid Robeyns at Crooked Timber, I will leave it at how do you measure happiness and does it mean the same everywhere?      &#160; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] we can analyze why this is the case but I will leave that to others. Besides the questions asked by Ingrid Robeyns at Crooked Timber, I will leave it at how do you measure happiness and does it mean the same everywhere?      &nbsp; [...]</p>
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