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	<title>Comments on: Points of tangency</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Jim Johnson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/comment-page-1/#comment-187285</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Feb 2007 04:00:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/#comment-187285</guid>
		<description>Maybe the best thing I can think to recommend to those who would &quot;reject&quot; formal modelling is parts of Tom Schelling&#039;s Micro-Motives and Macrobehavior - since he claims that models are a way of communicating. His remarks tie in with Rawls&#039; comments about &quot;devices of representation&quot; at the start of Political Liberalism. One could go on from there ... The problem is that many formal modellers need to read Schelling too since they too often have a hair-brained notion of what models are for.

(PS: I think Jodi Dean is correct that many formal modellers - at least in political science - do think that one can only say something intellgible in some formal language. That is silly though.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Maybe the best thing I can think to recommend to those who would &#8220;reject&#8221; formal modelling is parts of Tom Schelling&#8217;s Micro-Motives and Macrobehavior &#8211; since he claims that models are a way of communicating. His remarks tie in with Rawls&#8217; comments about &#8220;devices of representation&#8221; at the start of Political Liberalism. One could go on from there &#8230; The problem is that many formal modellers need to read Schelling too since they too often have a hair-brained notion of what models are for.</p>

	<p>(PS: I think Jodi Dean is correct that many formal modellers &#8211; at least in political science &#8211; do think that one can only say something intellgible in some formal language. That is silly though.)</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/comment-page-1/#comment-187216</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Feb 2007 12:31:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/#comment-187216</guid>
		<description>The opposite of a lightning rod is a house sitting there waiting to be destroyed by lightning. Lightning rods do not cause trouble --they make trouble less likely, or divert trouble in a harmless direction. Perhaps they&#039;re like scapegoats. (I doubt they&#039;re like homo sacer). What Scott probably meant was &quot;the opposite of a red flag to a bull&quot;, i.e. not an inciter or provocateur. 

We will now return to our previously scheduled programming.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The opposite of a lightning rod is a house sitting there waiting to be destroyed by lightning. Lightning rods do not cause trouble&#8212;they make trouble less likely, or divert trouble in a harmless direction. Perhaps they&#8217;re like scapegoats. (I doubt they&#8217;re like homo sacer). What Scott probably meant was &#8220;the opposite of a red flag to a bull&#8221;, i.e. not an inciter or provocateur.</p>

	<p>We will now return to our previously scheduled programming.</p>
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		<title>By: astrongmaybe</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/comment-page-1/#comment-187215</link>
		<dc:creator>astrongmaybe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Feb 2007 12:06:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/#comment-187215</guid>
		<description>Excellent, very important topic and thread. 

I think Dominick LaCapra’s History and Reading: Tocqueville, Foucault, French Studies might be very interesting both as a reflection on just these issues, and as a pretty good primer on the more important ends of neo-hermeneutic and post-structuralist thought (the bibliography is superb). His vocabulary is steeped in psychoanalysis too, which some people may not like (it’s what I like least about his stuff), but his use of it is thought-provoking in any case.

On Foucault, I’m not sure I’d agree on the “Nietzsche, Genealogy, History” essay – it always seemed to me like a quick write-up of his reading notes on Nietzsche. I would recommend the final chapter of “The Archaeology of Knowledge.” Even if you don’t believe a word he says (and, after years, I’m still not sure), it is an intellectual performance of great grandeur and nobility. He is engaging with a particular tradition of intellectual history, arguing (much as he might reject the word), for a structuralist, constructivist approach to the history of ideas. The way in which he summarizes the tradition he opposes is the astonishing thing – he summarizes it, including its strengths, better than most of adherents ever could. Then (and *only* then, that’s the nobility of it)... he demolishes it, or makes a pretty good attempt. Read that, and you realize that, while Foucault can and should criticized on many grounds, many of his critics aren&#039;t in the same league as him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Excellent, very important topic and thread.</p>

	<p>I think Dominick LaCapra&#8217;s History and Reading: Tocqueville, Foucault, French Studies might be very interesting both as a reflection on just these issues, and as a pretty good primer on the more important ends of neo-hermeneutic and post-structuralist thought (the bibliography is superb). His vocabulary is steeped in psychoanalysis too, which some people may not like (it&#8217;s what I like least about his stuff), but his use of it is thought-provoking in any case.</p>

	<p>On Foucault, I&#8217;m not sure I&#8217;d agree on the &#8220;Nietzsche, Genealogy, History&#8221; essay &#8211; it always seemed to me like a quick write-up of his reading notes on Nietzsche. I would recommend the final chapter of &#8220;The Archaeology of Knowledge.&#8221; Even if you don&#8217;t believe a word he says (and, after years, I&#8217;m still not sure), it is an intellectual performance of great grandeur and nobility. He is engaging with a particular tradition of intellectual history, arguing (much as he might reject the word), for a structuralist, constructivist approach to the history of ideas. The way in which he summarizes the tradition he opposes is the astonishing thing &#8211; he summarizes it, including its strengths, better than most of adherents ever could. Then (and <strong>only</strong> then, that&#8217;s the nobility of it)&#8230; he demolishes it, or makes a pretty good attempt. Read that, and you realize that, while Foucault can and should criticized on many grounds, many of his critics aren&#8217;t in the same league as him.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/comment-page-1/#comment-187170</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Feb 2007 23:07:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/#comment-187170</guid>
		<description>Thanks Jodi. Peter - that comment tells me rather more about you than about Ariel Rubinstein&#039;s book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks Jodi. Peter &#8211; that comment tells me rather more about you than about Ariel Rubinstein&#8217;s book.</p>
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		<title>By: radek</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/comment-page-1/#comment-187169</link>
		<dc:creator>radek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Feb 2007 22:57:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/#comment-187169</guid>
		<description>Ay, so much for tangency.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ay, so much for tangency.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/comment-page-1/#comment-187131</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Feb 2007 17:19:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/#comment-187131</guid>
		<description>Regarding Radek&#039;s mention (comment 7) of Rubinstein’s book &quot;Economics and Language&quot;:   I am still amazed that a prominent academic can write a succession of papers, publish these papers, and even compile them into a published book on a topic while completely ignoring the 2300 years of existing literure on the topic. Rubinstein&#039;s book shows an ignorance of argumentation theory that would be failure-inducing were his book a PhD thesis.  Was Rubinstein&#039;s work not peer-reviewed, or are reviewers in economics just as ignorant as authors? 

But, of course, most economists assume that they are the first people to ever consider a problem, so why both looking for any prior literature.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Regarding Radek&#8217;s mention (comment 7) of Rubinstein&#8217;s book &#8220;Economics and Language&#8221;:   I am still amazed that a prominent academic can write a succession of papers, publish these papers, and even compile them into a published book on a topic while completely ignoring the 2300 years of existing literure on the topic. Rubinstein&#8217;s book shows an ignorance of argumentation theory that would be failure-inducing were his book a PhD thesis.  Was Rubinstein&#8217;s work not peer-reviewed, or are reviewers in economics just as ignorant as authors?</p>

	<p>But, of course, most economists assume that they are the first people to ever consider a problem, so why both looking for any prior literature.</p>
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		<title>By: Jodi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/comment-page-1/#comment-187127</link>
		<dc:creator>Jodi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Feb 2007 16:37:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/#comment-187127</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t understand what Scott is talking about, what he has in mind.

Anyway, Henry, I appreciate your questions. As a bridge to poststructuralism, perhaps work in social studies of science and technology, like anything by Latour. Some folks in this thread have already mentioned Foucault, which makes sense, given his self-description as a &#039;happy positivist.&#039; I think his short essay &quot;Nietzsche, Genealogy, History&#039; is clear and persuasive and could be useful to anyone.

Psychoanalysis is a different kettle of fish. Perhaps a starting point is anything by Adam Phillips, who writes beautifully and is not dogmatic. A potential problem, though, is that he is difficult to extend or apply. Eric Santner&#039;s My Own Private Germany could be a good choice--it reads Judge Daniel Schreber&#039;s psychosis in terms of a generalized crisis facing modernity. Finally, I think that the last chapter of Zizek&#039;s Ticklish Subject could be a good bridge because it engages risk society theory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t understand what Scott is talking about, what he has in mind.</p>

	<p>Anyway, Henry, I appreciate your questions. As a bridge to poststructuralism, perhaps work in social studies of science and technology, like anything by Latour. Some folks in this thread have already mentioned Foucault, which makes sense, given his self-description as a &#8216;happy positivist.&#8217; I think his short essay &#8220;Nietzsche, Genealogy, History&#8217; is clear and persuasive and could be useful to anyone.</p>

	<p>Psychoanalysis is a different kettle of fish. Perhaps a starting point is anything by Adam Phillips, who writes beautifully and is not dogmatic. A potential problem, though, is that he is difficult to extend or apply. Eric Santner&#8217;s My Own Private Germany could be a good choice&#8212;it reads Judge Daniel Schreber&#8217;s psychosis in terms of a generalized crisis facing modernity. Finally, I think that the last chapter of Zizek&#8217;s Ticklish Subject could be a good bridge because it engages risk society theory.</p>
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		<title>By: Wade</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/comment-page-1/#comment-187096</link>
		<dc:creator>Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Feb 2007 03:00:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/#comment-187096</guid>
		<description>I should add that I don&#039;t know to what extent Jodi disagrees with you on that level.  But it doesn&#039;t sound like she&#039;s opposed to formal modeling &lt;i&gt;per se&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I should add that I don&#8217;t know to what extent Jodi disagrees with you on that level.  But it doesn&#8217;t sound like she&#8217;s opposed to formal modeling <i>per se</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: Wade</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/comment-page-1/#comment-187095</link>
		<dc:creator>Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Feb 2007 02:55:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/#comment-187095</guid>
		<description>Is this really about methodology?  Because it sounds like we&#039;re dealing with rival definitions of the political actor.  If I think that your ontology fails to capture some fundamental aspect of political life---say, that it neglects how persons are socially constituted---then your choice of method only concerns me to the extent that I accept your theoretical orientation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Is this really about methodology?  Because it sounds like we&#8217;re dealing with rival definitions of the political actor.  If I think that your ontology fails to capture some fundamental aspect of political life&#8212;-say, that it neglects how persons are socially constituted&#8212;-then your choice of method only concerns me to the extent that I accept your theoretical orientation.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Eric Kaufman</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/comment-page-1/#comment-187094</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Eric Kaufman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Feb 2007 02:42:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/#comment-187094</guid>
		<description>(Sorry, you meant on the LS thread.  That&#039;s localized snark, aimed at Craig and Craig alone.  I meant to refer back to my other statements over there, which were snark-free and full of substance.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>(Sorry, you meant on the LS thread.  That&#8217;s localized snark, aimed at Craig and Craig alone.  I meant to refer back to my other statements over there, which were snark-free and full of substance.)</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Eric Kaufman</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/comment-page-1/#comment-187093</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Eric Kaufman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Feb 2007 02:32:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/#comment-187093</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;But would you mind toning down the level of snark a little bit?&lt;/i&gt;

In my earlier comment, you mean?  Because there&#039;s no snark in it as far as I can tell.  As for the distinction between Jodi and Sinthome, well, that&#039;s something they&#039;ve hashed out themselves in the comments on I Cite, so I don&#039;t think my reference to it is particularly snarky.  Fact of the matter is, I&#039;m not the lightning rod in these debates, I&#039;m the...whatever the opposite of the lightning rod is.  (In fact, I just posted a draft of a paper--still the top post on my site--which says much the same thing you do vis-a-vis &quot;points of tangency/bridges/complementarities/whatever.&quot;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>But would you mind toning down the level of snark a little bit?</i></p>

	<p>In my earlier comment, you mean?  Because there&#8217;s no snark in it as far as I can tell.  As for the distinction between Jodi and Sinthome, well, that&#8217;s something they&#8217;ve hashed out themselves in the comments on I Cite, so I don&#8217;t think my reference to it is particularly snarky.  Fact of the matter is, I&#8217;m not the lightning rod in these debates, I&#8217;m the&#8230;whatever the opposite of the lightning rod is.  (In fact, I just posted a draft of a paper&#8212;still the top post on my site&#8212;which says much the same thing you do vis-a-vis &#8220;points of tangency/bridges/complementarities/whatever.&#8221;)</p>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/comment-page-1/#comment-187091</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Feb 2007 02:23:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/#comment-187091</guid>
		<description>Scott - I&#039;ll pass on the event if only b/c I don&#039;t know enough about psychoanalysis to say anything at all useful. But would you mind toning down the level of snark a little bit? I know that there have been a variety of heated arguments surrounding this set of issues, and I&#039;d like, if possible, to see if we can have a conversation on the specific issue of points of tangency/bridges/complementarities/whatever between apparently mutually opposed points of view, if they exist. Not that snark doesn&#039;t have its place at CT, goodness knows, but what I&#039;d like to figure out is whether there is some grounds here for exchange that goes beyond trench warfare, and more specifically to figure out if there is stuff that I should be reading as a pol-sci type that I don&#039;t know about (I&#039;m familiar with Foucault, Bourdieu, and some of the anthropological theory debates; a lot of the other stuff in the post-positivist field I&#039;m sketchy on).

Kieran, that looks fascinating.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Scott &#8211; I&#8217;ll pass on the event if only b/c I don&#8217;t know enough about psychoanalysis to say anything at all useful. But would you mind toning down the level of snark a little bit? I know that there have been a variety of heated arguments surrounding this set of issues, and I&#8217;d like, if possible, to see if we can have a conversation on the specific issue of points of tangency/bridges/complementarities/whatever between apparently mutually opposed points of view, if they exist. Not that snark doesn&#8217;t have its place at CT, goodness knows, but what I&#8217;d like to figure out is whether there is some grounds here for exchange that goes beyond trench warfare, and more specifically to figure out if there is stuff that I should be reading as a pol-sci type that I don&#8217;t know about (I&#8217;m familiar with Foucault, Bourdieu, and some of the anthropological theory debates; a lot of the other stuff in the post-positivist field I&#8217;m sketchy on).</p>

	<p>Kieran, that looks fascinating.</p>
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		<title>By: Kieran Healy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/comment-page-1/#comment-187088</link>
		<dc:creator>Kieran Healy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Feb 2007 02:04:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/#comment-187088</guid>
		<description>A terrific example of what you have in mind is an article by my colleague Ron Breiger: &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://hdl.handle.net/doi:10.1016/S0304-422X(99)00026-1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;A Tool Kit for Practice Theory&lt;/a&gt;,&quot; _Poetics_ 27 (2000): 91-115.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>A terrific example of what you have in mind is an article by my colleague Ron Breiger: &#8220;<a href="http://hdl.handle.net/doi:10.1016/S0304-422X(99)00026-1" rel="nofollow">A Tool Kit for Practice Theory</a>,&#8221; <em>Poetics</em> 27 (2000): 91-115.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/comment-page-1/#comment-187085</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Feb 2007 01:15:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/#comment-187085</guid>
		<description>On Freud, if not, perhaps, psychoanalysis, some people might find Brian Leiter&#039;s &quot;Morality Critics&quot; piece, discussing Nietzsche, Marx, and Freud.  I think there&#039;s a link to it from his home page (his law school one, not his blog.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>On Freud, if not, perhaps, psychoanalysis, some people might find Brian Leiter&#8217;s &#8220;Morality Critics&#8221; piece, discussing Nietzsche, Marx, and Freud.  I think there&#8217;s a link to it from his home page (his law school one, not his blog.)</p>
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		<title>By: Colin Danby</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/comment-page-1/#comment-187082</link>
		<dc:creator>Colin Danby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Feb 2007 23:31:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/15/points-of-tangency/#comment-187082</guid>
		<description>Philip Mirowski&#039;s work is a great example of someone who&#039;s smart and critical across multiple traditions.  For another example check out the critical accounting literature.  There are many, many of us in heterodox econ of all kinds (Austrian, Marxist, Feminist, Post Keynesian etc.) who are critical of particular kinds of models but who take the trouble to learn them, and who also draw on various strains of post-structuralist or hermeneutic thought.  It&#039;s just as silly to reject all formal methods as it is to insist on only formal methods.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Philip Mirowski&#8217;s work is a great example of someone who&#8217;s smart and critical across multiple traditions.  For another example check out the critical accounting literature.  There are many, many of us in heterodox econ of all kinds (Austrian, Marxist, Feminist, Post Keynesian etc.) who are critical of particular kinds of models but who take the trouble to learn them, and who also draw on various strains of post-structuralist or hermeneutic thought.  It&#8217;s just as silly to reject all formal methods as it is to insist on only formal methods.</p>
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