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	<title>Comments on: It&#8217;s &#8230;. alive!</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Crooked Timber &#187; &#187; Pains-taking Plus Metropolis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/comment-page-1/#comment-188022</link>
		<dc:creator>Crooked Timber &#187; &#187; Pains-taking Plus Metropolis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Feb 2007 02:13:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/#comment-188022</guid>
		<description>[...] bemused follow-up to my Frankenstein post. Here&#8217;s the sort of stuff you get tangled in, trying to edit this stuff into shape (plus [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] bemused follow-up to my Frankenstein post. Here&#8217;s the sort of stuff you get tangled in, trying to edit this stuff into shape (plus [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tim McG</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/comment-page-1/#comment-187855</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim McG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Feb 2007 03:50:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/#comment-187855</guid>
		<description>Some errors in above posts (I don&#039;t mean to be snarky, but the facts should be known): 

zozazumi is wrong on a couple of points. &quot;adding value&quot; is not the standard for copyrighting. The actual test is whether a &quot;spark of creativity&quot; has occurred. (Yes, it&#039;s more vague.) Under U.S. law, typesetting or scanning isn&#039;t copyrightable. (Under UK law, and I don&#039;t know where else, typesetting is copyrightable.) Adding value isn&#039;t the same as adding creativity. 

t. gracchus has the principle right but is wrong in saying that you have to publish something with a copyright notice in order for it to be in copyright. This was true before 1978, but works created after that point are protected from the moment of creation.

A lot of these more interesting questions don&#039;t get hashed out because the people interested don&#039;t have the money to take the cases to court.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Some errors in above posts (I don&#8217;t mean to be snarky, but the facts should be known):</p>

	<p>zozazumi is wrong on a couple of points. &#8220;adding value&#8221; is not the standard for copyrighting. The actual test is whether a &#8220;spark of creativity&#8221; has occurred. (Yes, it&#8217;s more vague.) Under U.S. law, typesetting or scanning isn&#8217;t copyrightable. (Under UK law, and I don&#8217;t know where else, typesetting is copyrightable.) Adding value isn&#8217;t the same as adding creativity.</p>

	<p>t. gracchus has the principle right but is wrong in saying that you have to publish something with a copyright notice in order for it to be in copyright. This was true before 1978, but works created after that point are protected from the moment of creation.</p>

	<p>A lot of these more interesting questions don&#8217;t get hashed out because the people interested don&#8217;t have the money to take the cases to court.</p>
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		<title>By: T. Gracchus</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/comment-page-1/#comment-187761</link>
		<dc:creator>T. Gracchus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Feb 2007 15:15:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/#comment-187761</guid>
		<description>On the copyright issue:  if you do not mark the product, it is not under copyright.  You can also just note on the appropriate page that it is public domain.  One cannot bring under copyright a public domain document by changing font or typeface.  One needs to alter the document in some significant way.  What is typically copyrighted in (same language) reprints is the introduction.  It is rather difficult to see how there could be an issue about use of the appendix to check your work as you won&#039;t actually be printing it and you will be using it for its intended purpose.  Acknowledgement is nice but I doubt legally required.  
If you have genuine concerns, you should do one of two things: consult the university&#039;s counsel (they should have someone knoweldgeable on copyright, particuarly if they have a press) or spend $100 to get the opinion of a copyright lawyer.  For those particularly interested in free-riding, there is also the possibility of a local equivalent of Lawyers for the Arts, whcih provides free or very low cost basic legal advice to artists re their practices.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>On the copyright issue:  if you do not mark the product, it is not under copyright.  You can also just note on the appropriate page that it is public domain.  One cannot bring under copyright a public domain document by changing font or typeface.  One needs to alter the document in some significant way.  What is typically copyrighted in (same language) reprints is the introduction.  It is rather difficult to see how there could be an issue about use of the appendix to check your work as you won&#8217;t actually be printing it and you will be using it for its intended purpose.  Acknowledgement is nice but I doubt legally required.<br />
If you have genuine concerns, you should do one of two things: consult the university&#8217;s counsel (they should have someone knoweldgeable on copyright, particuarly if they have a press) or spend $100 to get the opinion of a copyright lawyer.  For those particularly interested in free-riding, there is also the possibility of a local equivalent of Lawyers for the Arts, whcih provides free or very low cost basic legal advice to artists re their practices.</p>
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		<title>By: Slocum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/comment-page-1/#comment-187643</link>
		<dc:creator>Slocum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 09:11:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/#comment-187643</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;A real world example would be a photo agency that acquires copies of public domain photos from the National Archives or Library of Congress.  Once they’ve reprinted or scanned the photos or done any editing to them, they’ve added value and are legally entitled to copyright the images and sell them.&lt;/i&gt;

That is doubtful -- at least in the U.S. in light of the decision in the &#039;Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel&#039; case:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgeman_Art_Library_Ltd._v._Corel_Corporation

The critical issue seems to be whether or not any creativity was involved in the reproduction or whether it was just an example of &#039;slavish copying&#039;.  This leads me to wonder whether scanning a public domain text and changing the typeface or adding minor formatting, punctuation or spelling changes would constitute &#039;creativity&#039; for the purposes of U.S. copyright law.  As far as I know, there hasn&#039;t been a case where the reasoning in Bridgeman is applied to reproduction of public domain texts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>A real world example would be a photo agency that acquires copies of public domain photos from the National Archives or Library of Congress.  Once they&#8217;ve reprinted or scanned the photos or done any editing to them, they&#8217;ve added value and are legally entitled to copyright the images and sell them.</i></p>

	<p>That is doubtful&#8212;at least in the U.S. in light of the decision in the &#8216;Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel&#8217; case:</p>

	<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgeman_Art_Library_Ltd._v._Corel_Corporation" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgeman_Art_Library_Ltd._v._Corel_Corporation</a></p>

	<p>The critical issue seems to be whether or not any creativity was involved in the reproduction or whether it was just an example of &#8216;slavish copying&#8217;.  This leads me to wonder whether scanning a public domain text and changing the typeface or adding minor formatting, punctuation or spelling changes would constitute &#8216;creativity&#8217; for the purposes of U.S. copyright law.  As far as I know, there hasn&#8217;t been a case where the reasoning in Bridgeman is applied to reproduction of public domain texts.</p>
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		<title>By: SG</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/comment-page-1/#comment-187637</link>
		<dc:creator>SG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 05:18:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/#comment-187637</guid>
		<description>Indeed Sophia, but when I said &quot;petty&quot; bourgeois I meant it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Indeed Sophia, but when I said &#8220;petty&#8221; bourgeois I meant it.</p>
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		<title>By: jholbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/comment-page-1/#comment-187627</link>
		<dc:creator>jholbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 00:20:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/#comment-187627</guid>
		<description>Thanks, stacy. I&#039;m almost done with my 1831 edition now, and I figure I&#039;ll give it back to Gutenberg when I&#039;m done - in addition to making any other use of it I decide to. So Gutenberg should have a much-improved Frankenstein soon. (Could use the 1818 edition, though.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks, stacy. I&#8217;m almost done with my 1831 edition now, and I figure I&#8217;ll give it back to Gutenberg when I&#8217;m done &#8211; in addition to making any other use of it I decide to. So Gutenberg should have a much-improved Frankenstein soon. (Could use the 1818 edition, though.)</p>
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		<title>By: Sophia</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/comment-page-1/#comment-187626</link>
		<dc:creator>Sophia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Feb 2007 23:59:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/#comment-187626</guid>
		<description>re: comment 13, the heroines of gothic novels are almost always members of the gentry (at the very least) so their concerns, while frequently annoying, are hardly petit bourgeois :) In fact, the only middle class heroine I can think of in a gothic novel is Mina Harker in Dracula and even she hangs out with aristocrats (not only the Count).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>re: comment 13, the heroines of gothic novels are almost always members of the gentry (at the very least) so their concerns, while frequently annoying, are hardly petit bourgeois :) In fact, the only middle class heroine I can think of in a gothic novel is Mina Harker in Dracula and even she hangs out with aristocrats (not only the Count).</p>
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		<title>By: nick s</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/comment-page-1/#comment-187620</link>
		<dc:creator>nick s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:56:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/#comment-187620</guid>
		<description>Colon-emdash is fairly common, especially in mid-to-late c-19 texts. I don&#039;t know enough MSS to say whether it&#039;s an authorial or typographical convention, but Victorian punctuation in general is pretty damn heavy.

Here&#039;s to PG&#039;s variorum editions, if and when they come. As much as initiatives such as Distributed Proofreaders are fantastic -- and I&#039;ve done some proofing -- I&#039;d love to see a few people with editing skills jump on board with models of how to assemble a good teaching or study text. Admittedly, it challenges the notion of working on a potentially-lucrative scholarly edition (£60 hardback, but a necessary purchase for university libraries) but the web has long been ripe as a medium for such things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Colon-emdash is fairly common, especially in mid-to-late c-19 texts. I don&#8217;t know enough <span class="caps">MSS</span> to say whether it&#8217;s an authorial or typographical convention, but Victorian punctuation in general is pretty damn heavy.</p>

	<p>Here&#8217;s to PG&#8217;s variorum editions, if and when they come. As much as initiatives such as Distributed Proofreaders are fantastic&#8212;and I&#8217;ve done some proofing&#8212;I&#8217;d love to see a few people with editing skills jump on board with models of how to assemble a good teaching or study text. Admittedly, it challenges the notion of working on a potentially-lucrative scholarly edition (&#163;60 hardback, but a necessary purchase for university libraries) but the web has long been ripe as a medium for such things.</p>
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		<title>By: Stacy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/comment-page-1/#comment-187614</link>
		<dc:creator>Stacy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:23:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/#comment-187614</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a volunteer at Distributed Proofreaders. And yes, as susanc points out, we do now include edition information with every book that&#039;s uploaded to Project Gutenberg.  We also have multiple rounds of proofreading to make sure those typos (or, in our case, scannos) are minimized. 

I&#039;ll make a note to our content providers that PG could use the 1818 edition, as well as a better 1831 edition as well.  Unfortunately, there&#039;s no way to tell how long it would take for these to make it through the system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m a volunteer at Distributed Proofreaders. And yes, as susanc points out, we do now include edition information with every book that&#8217;s uploaded to Project Gutenberg.  We also have multiple rounds of proofreading to make sure those typos (or, in our case, scannos) are minimized.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;ll make a note to our content providers that PG could use the 1818 edition, as well as a better 1831 edition as well.  Unfortunately, there&#8217;s no way to tell how long it would take for these to make it through the system.</p>
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		<title>By: zozazumi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/comment-page-1/#comment-187611</link>
		<dc:creator>zozazumi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:57:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/#comment-187611</guid>
		<description>What I think I know about U.S. copyright. One can copyright ANY material in the public domain by adding value to it. Adding value can be as simple as scanning in the text of a novel published in the 1800s and reprinting it with a fresh typeface. You own the copyright to your edition of the novel, but not to the novel itself.

If someone then takes your edition, scans it, and prints their version of the novel, they are in violation of your copyright. Many publishers insert subtle changes into their versions of public domain works to catch copyright violators.

A real world example would be a photo agency that acquires copies of public domain photos from the National Archives or Library of Congress. Once they&#039;ve reprinted or scanned the photos or done any editing to them, they&#039;ve added value and are legally entitled to copyright the images and sell them. That&#039;s why you may see the same Matthew Brady photo on a variety of agency sites and each one bears that agency&#039;s notice of copyright.

I am not a lawyer and this information is in no way presented as legal advice. This is the internet, not the law offices of Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe (apologies to the Tappet Bros.).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What I think I know about U.S. copyright. One can copyright <span class="caps">ANY</span> material in the public domain by adding value to it. Adding value can be as simple as scanning in the text of a novel published in the 1800s and reprinting it with a fresh typeface. You own the copyright to your edition of the novel, but not to the novel itself.</p>

	<p>If someone then takes your edition, scans it, and prints their version of the novel, they are in violation of your copyright. Many publishers insert subtle changes into their versions of public domain works to catch copyright violators.</p>

	<p>A real world example would be a photo agency that acquires copies of public domain photos from the National Archives or Library of Congress. Once they&#8217;ve reprinted or scanned the photos or done any editing to them, they&#8217;ve added value and are legally entitled to copyright the images and sell them. That&#8217;s why you may see the same Matthew Brady photo on a variety of agency sites and each one bears that agency&#8217;s notice of copyright.</p>

	<p>I am not a lawyer and this information is in no way presented as legal advice. This is the internet, not the law offices of Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe (apologies to the Tappet Bros.).</p>
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		<title>By: Tim McG</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/comment-page-1/#comment-187602</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim McG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:16:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/#comment-187602</guid>
		<description>Unless the scholarly appendix you are using reconstructs something that does not exist, then it cannot be copyrighted. There is precious little that can be copyrighted in a scholarly edition of a PD work, but there&#039;s also precious little competition to spur on infringement. 

Yes, you can cede IP to the public domain, by, as you say, a speech act. You can give away property of any kind to anyone you want to (well, excepting guns and convicts and that sort of thing).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Unless the scholarly appendix you are using reconstructs something that does not exist, then it cannot be copyrighted. There is precious little that can be copyrighted in a scholarly edition of a PD work, but there&#8217;s also precious little competition to spur on infringement.</p>

	<p>Yes, you can cede IP to the public domain, by, as you say, a speech act. You can give away property of any kind to anyone you want to (well, excepting guns and convicts and that sort of thing).</p>
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		<title>By: JR</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/comment-page-1/#comment-187599</link>
		<dc:creator>JR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:59:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/#comment-187599</guid>
		<description>(Trollope was fond of the semicolon-dash;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>(Trollope was fond of the semicolon-dash;-)</p>
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		<title>By: SusanC</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/comment-page-1/#comment-187592</link>
		<dc:creator>SusanC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:06:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/#comment-187592</guid>
		<description>The Project Gutenberg edition of Mary Shelley&#039;s Frankenstein is somewhat notorious for being itself a monster cobbled together from different editions.

As I understand it, the current practise of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.pgdp.net/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Distributed Proofreaders&lt;/a&gt; (the largest group submitting books to Project Gutenberg) is to identify which edition of a book was transcribed. But this wasn&#039;t always done in the early days of Project Gutenberg, and Frankenstein - in particular - is regarded as needing to be redone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The Project Gutenberg edition of Mary Shelley&#8217;s Frankenstein is somewhat notorious for being itself a monster cobbled together from different editions.</p>

	<p>As I understand it, the current practise of <a href="http://www.pgdp.net/" rel="nofollow">Distributed Proofreaders</a> (the largest group submitting books to Project Gutenberg) is to identify which edition of a book was transcribed. But this wasn&#8217;t always done in the early days of Project Gutenberg, and Frankenstein &#8211; in particular &#8211; is regarded as needing to be redone.</p>
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		<title>By: Another Damned Medievalist</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/comment-page-1/#comment-187589</link>
		<dc:creator>Another Damned Medievalist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:01:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/#comment-187589</guid>
		<description>Sorry for the OT comment, but I didn&#039;t want to e-mail all the Timberites individually.  I&#039;ve just awarded CT with a &lt;a&gt;http://blogenspiel.blogspot.com/2007/02/thinking-blogger-award.html&quot;&gt;Thinking Blogger Award&lt;/a&gt;, which is meme-ish, but I think deserved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sorry for the OT comment, but I didn&#8217;t want to e-mail all the Timberites individually.  I&#8217;ve just awarded CT with a <a></a><a href="http://blogenspiel.blogspot.com/2007/02/thinking-blogger-award.html" rel="nofollow">http://blogenspiel.blogspot.com/2007/02/thinking-blogger-award.html</a>&#8220;>Thinking Blogger Award, which is meme-ish, but I think deserved.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Weiner</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/comment-page-1/#comment-187588</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Weiner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:49:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/20/its-alive/#comment-187588</guid>
		<description>Nicholson Baker had an essay that devoted considerable space to comashes and such beasts (IIRC an early Updike novel had a dash-comma). It was called &quot;Survival of the Fittest&quot; and was ostensibly a review of a book about punctuation in the &lt;i&gt;New York Review of Books&lt;/i&gt;; in characteristic NYRB fashion the exotic punctuation marks that were most prominent in the essay were those that were &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; discussed in the book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Nicholson Baker had an essay that devoted considerable space to comashes and such beasts (IIRC an early Updike novel had a dash-comma). It was called &#8220;Survival of the Fittest&#8221; and was ostensibly a review of a book about punctuation in the <i>New York Review of Books</i>; in characteristic <span class="caps">NYRB</span> fashion the exotic punctuation marks that were most prominent in the essay were those that were <i>not</i> discussed in the book.</p>
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