Comments on: The New SDS http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sun, 27 May 2012 00:43:58 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Roy Belmont http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/comment-page-1/#comment-192591 Roy Belmont Sat, 07 Apr 2007 21:21:27 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/#comment-192591 Berube- That final period belongs outside the quote. Also, if that laughter you laughed out loud was scornful, I win. Having delivered that compounding series of phrases all intentionally and everything. Because it's fun! But if it was genuine, shared amusement, then I'm a jerk for thinking it was smug, blind, and wannabe semi-elitist sneering. Berube-
That final period belongs outside the quote.
Also, if that laughter you laughed out loud was scornful, I win. Having delivered that compounding series of phrases all intentionally and everything. Because it’s fun!
But if it was genuine, shared amusement, then I’m a jerk for thinking it was smug, blind, and wannabe semi-elitist sneering.

]]> By: Michael Bérubé http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/comment-page-1/#comment-192572 Michael Bérubé Sat, 07 Apr 2007 16:35:30 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/#comment-192572 And I laughed out loud when I came to "It’s absolutely crucial, can’t be stressed too often or too much, that we all remember to keep in mind that in spite of the fact that." And I laughed out loud when I came to “It’s absolutely crucial, can’t be stressed too often or too much, that we all remember to keep in mind that in spite of the fact that.”

]]> By: in translation http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/comment-page-1/#comment-192560 in translation Sat, 07 Apr 2007 10:15:25 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/#comment-192560 I actually laughed out loud when I came to "I've run out of steam." I actually laughed out loud when I came to “I’ve run out of steam.”

]]> By: Roy Belmont http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/comment-page-1/#comment-192535 Roy Belmont Sat, 07 Apr 2007 00:07:30 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/#comment-192535 It's absolutely crucial, can't be stressed too often or too much, that we all remember to keep in mind that in spite of the fact that there was a sudden and total drop-off in leadership of any left or even leftish resistance in the US after 1969 and its covert assassinations and neutralizations, and no one emerged after ever again who wasn't remnant and on the run or turned, so that it looks like some kind of profiling and consequent custodial engineering may have taken place, run on those born in the US after about 1946 or so - possibly through the great catalogs of teh educational system, begun in earnest in the 1950's - although there may be some other explanation for that complete and total void of charismatic and radical leadership figures in a population at the time numbering around 200 million of which many were among the rising tide of the so-called "baby-boom" and yet none, no one, rose up as visibly resistant to anything political between the years of say 1975 and pretty close to right now today - it's vital that we remember that that's okay, it's alright, nothing happened, nothing serious, Fred Hampton was a victim of a procedural error or set of errors, total anomaly, Angela Davis is/was some kind of sado/maochistic Maoist freak, the cartoonishness of most of the public figures on the visible radical left was a direct outgrowth of the cartoonish nature of radical leftists and leftism generally, when they aren't being scary and feral they're just plain comically stupid. So forget about anything that smacks of deeper covert action domestically from a government and its semi-rogue agents and agencies that's documented, substantiated, witnessed, testified to as willing to go the extra dark covert mile in every other country on the planet that fits its self-assigned mandate - they would never have moved against their own people, not even to protect them from the scourge of communist infiltration, not in a million years, and if they had we'd know about it. Although... As to the incessant triangulation of Berube and his erstwhile liberal cohort in their avid push to gain the comfort and safety of the middle of the herd - the explications of that process, so precisely and eloquently delivered by the still-greatly-missed Turbulent Velvet in many an other venue, will have to suffice, I've run out of steam. It’s absolutely crucial, can’t be stressed too often or too much, that we all remember to keep in mind that in spite of the fact that there was a sudden and total drop-off in leadership of any left or even leftish resistance in the US after 1969 and its covert assassinations and neutralizations, and no one emerged after ever again who wasn’t remnant and on the run or turned, so that it looks like some kind of profiling and consequent custodial engineering may have taken place, run on those born in the US after about 1946 or so – possibly through the great catalogs of teh educational system, begun in earnest in the 1950’s – although there may be some other explanation for that complete and total void of charismatic and radical leadership figures in a population at the time numbering around 200 million of which many were among the rising tide of the so-called “baby-boom” and yet none, no one, rose up as visibly resistant to anything political between the years of say 1975 and pretty close to right now today – it’s vital that we remember that that’s okay, it’s alright, nothing happened, nothing serious, Fred Hampton was a victim of a procedural error or set of errors, total anomaly, Angela Davis is/was some kind of sado/maochistic Maoist freak, the cartoonishness of most of the public figures on the visible radical left was a direct outgrowth of the cartoonish nature of radical leftists and leftism generally, when they aren’t being scary and feral they’re just plain comically stupid. So forget about anything that smacks of deeper covert action domestically from a government and its semi-rogue agents and agencies that’s documented, substantiated, witnessed, testified to as willing to go the extra dark covert mile in every other country on the planet that fits its self-assigned mandate – they would never have moved against their own people, not even to protect them from the scourge of communist infiltration, not in a million years, and if they had we’d know about it.
Although…
As to the incessant triangulation of Berube and his erstwhile liberal cohort in their avid push to gain the comfort and safety of the middle of the herd – the explications of that process, so precisely and eloquently delivered by the still-greatly-missed Turbulent Velvet in many an other venue, will have to suffice, I’ve run out of steam.

]]> By: Nell http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/comment-page-1/#comment-192474 Nell Fri, 06 Apr 2007 00:32:13 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/#comment-192474 Just for the historical record: The demonstrator photographed putting flowers in the barrels of National Guardsmen at the Pentagon demo of 1967 was either <a href="http://byneddiejingo.blogspot.com/2006/01/dont-make-em-like-they-used-to.html" rel="nofollow">'Super-Joel' Tornabene</a> (says his brother) or <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/17/AR2007031701300.html" rel="nofollow">George Harris</a>, 'Hibiscus' of the SF Cockettes (says film director David Weissman). Neither is alive today to resolve the question. I doubt that either of them came anywhere near an SDS chapter in their eventful lives. Just for the historical record: The demonstrator photographed putting flowers in the barrels of National Guardsmen at the Pentagon demo of 1967 was either ‘Super-Joel’ Tornabene (says his brother) or George Harris, ‘Hibiscus’ of the SF Cockettes (says film director David Weissman). Neither is alive today to resolve the question. I doubt that either of them came anywhere near an SDS chapter in their eventful lives.

]]> By: Nell http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/comment-page-1/#comment-192220 Nell Tue, 03 Apr 2007 21:30:11 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/#comment-192220 Max: <i>an early pre-marxist vintage, maybe 1963. Think kids putting flowers into National Guard rifles.</i> Which event was considerably post-1963, and not done by SDS-ers. But I quibble, as Max's assessment seems a lot calmer and more realistic than that in the main post. Max: an early pre-marxist vintage, maybe 1963. Think kids putting flowers into National Guard rifles.

Which event was considerably post-1963, and not done by SDS-ers. But I quibble, as Max’s assessment seems a lot calmer and more realistic than that in the main post.

]]> By: Donald Johnson http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/comment-page-1/#comment-192214 Donald Johnson Tue, 03 Apr 2007 20:24:16 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/#comment-192214 Yikes. Yikes.

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/comment-page-1/#comment-192212 abb1 Tue, 03 Apr 2007 20:22:34 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/#comment-192212 <i>“Haters” in post 32 is a bit much...</i> I know I'm voicing the sentiment of the overwhelming majority of posters, readers and commenters here when I say: those who don't recognize the utmost necessity of defending our dear comrade Michael against nasty, malicious hatred-filled attacks by moonbats and wingnuts alike are not welcome here. Yes, that's you, Donald Johnson, if that's your real name. “Haters” in post 32 is a bit much…

I know I’m voicing the sentiment of the overwhelming majority of posters, readers and commenters here when I say: those who don’t recognize the utmost necessity of defending our dear comrade Michael against nasty, malicious hatred-filled attacks by moonbats and wingnuts alike are not welcome here. Yes, that’s you, Donald Johnson, if that’s your real name.

]]> By: Donald Johnson http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/comment-page-1/#comment-192208 Donald Johnson Tue, 03 Apr 2007 19:12:39 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/#comment-192208 "Haters" in post 32 is a bit much, but I agree with poster 28--there is a need somewhere someplace to have a non-snarky (and possibly even semi-polite) discussion about the rights and wrongs of real or alleged humanitarian interventions. The problem isn't just the personal conflicts, but the way people tend to caricature the opponent. Okay, dumb utopian suggestion. Back to snark. “Haters” in post 32 is a bit much, but I agree with poster 28—there is a need somewhere someplace to have a non-snarky (and possibly even semi-polite) discussion about the rights and wrongs of real or alleged humanitarian interventions. The problem isn’t just the personal conflicts, but the way people tend to caricature the opponent. Okay, dumb utopian suggestion. Back to snark.

]]> By: Jon Kay http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/comment-page-1/#comment-192205 Jon Kay Tue, 03 Apr 2007 19:01:37 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/#comment-192205 How is the SDS interested in democracy? An admittedly small minority are interested in autocratic rule, the more contemporary majority are into consensus government, really. Do you see any examples of consensus governments existing in our times? No, and it's not for not having been tried. The reason is that there's at least one voter who votes against war or military funding even in cases of imminent invasion. It's a success from the antiwar perspective, I guess, but hardly for the people. Have democracies done stupid and intolerant things? Have they done those things to minorities? Of course. Democracies have also overruled minorities to extend voter franchise, end slavery, end institutional racism, vote for the Persian, Revolutionary, and Second World Wars, install transport, etc.. Yes, elected leaders have even done things against the wills of majorities. Lincoln's election is an excellent example. He was elected on a plank of limiting slavery in time and place, which was unpopular (Southerners opposed it, others feared rupture of the Union). He succeeded beyond his hopes because 2/3 of the majority in question left the Union. How is the SDS interested in democracy? An admittedly small minority are interested in autocratic rule, the more contemporary majority are into consensus government, really.

Do you see any examples of consensus governments existing in our times? No, and it’s not for not having been tried. The reason is that there’s at least one voter who votes against war or military funding even in cases of imminent invasion. It’s a success from the antiwar perspective, I guess, but hardly for the people.

Have democracies done stupid and intolerant things? Have they done those things to minorities? Of course.

Democracies have also overruled minorities to extend voter franchise, end slavery, end institutional racism, vote for the Persian, Revolutionary, and Second World Wars, install transport, etc..

Yes, elected leaders have even done things against the wills of majorities. Lincoln’s election is an excellent example. He was elected on a plank of limiting slavery in time and place, which was unpopular (Southerners opposed it, others feared rupture of the Union). He succeeded beyond his hopes because 2/3 of the majority in question left the Union.

]]> By: Brad Kerr http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/comment-page-1/#comment-192204 Brad Kerr Tue, 03 Apr 2007 18:48:43 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/#comment-192204 While "The Weather Underground" was at Film Forum in NYC, several Weatherman and Black Liberation Army folks gave a talk at the Gilda's House nearby. Lynne Stewart got a standing ovation. The evening was a blast for a certain type of nerd like myself. Someone upthread doubted that anyone was advocating underground terrorist cells. I don't know if this counts, but one of the BLA members -- tall, female, wrappered -- told the crowd that night that, as "white activists" (her term), we were obligated to do the drudge work of the revolution. She emphasized bank robbery as especially useful. Now that's comedy! While “The Weather Underground” was at Film Forum in NYC, several Weatherman and Black Liberation Army folks gave a talk at the Gilda’s House nearby. Lynne Stewart got a standing ovation. The evening was a blast for a certain type of nerd like myself.

Someone upthread doubted that anyone was advocating underground terrorist cells. I don’t know if this counts, but one of the BLA members—tall, female, wrappered—told the crowd that night that, as “white activists” (her term), we were obligated to do the drudge work of the revolution. She emphasized bank robbery as especially useful.

Now that’s comedy!

]]> By: aaron http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/comment-page-1/#comment-192202 aaron Tue, 03 Apr 2007 18:34:49 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/#comment-192202 The current SDS is learning from the failures of the old. The weatherman faction was not solely responsible for the destruction of the "old" SDS. Rather, it was the leadership hierarchies of the old organization and its peculiar power structure that led enabled a "fringe" group like the weather undergrounds to take control. The current SDS, perhaps due to the influence of its anarchist members, has done its best to avoid hierarchies and "vanguardism" which I think is a promising sign for the organization. As the article points out, this can generate problems when organizing events, and it will be interesting to see what forms the organization takes as time goes on. The current SDS is learning from the failures of the old. The weatherman faction was not solely responsible for the destruction of the “old” SDS. Rather, it was the leadership hierarchies of the old organization and its peculiar power structure that led enabled a “fringe” group like the weather undergrounds to take control. The current SDS, perhaps due to the influence of its anarchist members, has done its best to avoid hierarchies and “vanguardism” which I think is a promising sign for the organization. As the article points out, this can generate problems when organizing events, and it will be interesting to see what forms the organization takes as time goes on.

]]> By: blah http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/comment-page-1/#comment-192200 blah Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:41:28 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/#comment-192200 Michael: Please don't change because of the haters. Michael:

Please don’t change because of the haters.

]]> By: Barry http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/comment-page-1/#comment-192194 Barry Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:13:14 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/#comment-192194 Ditto (excuse my profanity). Humor is nice, as is irony and sarcasm, much in the same way that sweeteners are. And in a similar fashion, too mucy of the former is like trying to eat a meal covered in corn syrup. Ditto (excuse my profanity). Humor is nice, as is irony and sarcasm, much in the same way that sweeteners are. And in a similar fashion, too mucy of the former is like trying to eat a meal covered in corn syrup.

]]> By: ejh http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/comment-page-1/#comment-192190 ejh Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:02:02 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/04/02/the-new-sds/#comment-192190 <i>Oh, ejh, I can't compete with you for moral seriousness.</i> Quite likely: but it is possible that if your engagement with others is made almost exclusively in the form it currently takes, then other people will find it hard to hold as high an opinion of your capabilities as the opinion you hold yourself. Oh, ejh, I can’t compete with you for moral seriousness.

Quite likely: but it is possible that if your engagement with others is made almost exclusively in the form it currently takes, then other people will find it hard to hold as high an opinion of your capabilities as the opinion you hold yourself.

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