Comments on: Footnotes to Plato http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Mon, 13 Feb 2012 05:39:10 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Jim Harrison http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/comment-page-1/#comment-195529 Jim Harrison Mon, 07 May 2007 04:44:50 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/#comment-195529 Yep, that's why I wrote about the Conservative version of the Republic. I don't understand it that way myself. On a vulgar-Straussian reading, Thrasymachus can be said to voice the true, esoteric message of the dialogue while the stuff about the forms put out by Socrates is just the middlebrow version of the holy fiction that underlies the state. The error of Thrasymachus lies in not recognizing the need to maintain the illusion of decency. It isn't enough to dare to be brutal and selfish. You've got to dare to be a hypocrite and liar while your at. Yep, that’s why I wrote about the Conservative version of the Republic. I don’t understand it that way myself.

On a vulgar-Straussian reading, Thrasymachus can be said to voice the true, esoteric message of the dialogue while the stuff about the forms put out by Socrates is just the middlebrow version of the holy fiction that underlies the state. The error of Thrasymachus lies in not recognizing the need to maintain the illusion of decency. It isn’t enough to dare to be brutal and selfish. You’ve got to dare to be a hypocrite and liar while your at.

]]> By: Patrick S. O'Donnell http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/comment-page-1/#comment-195516 Patrick S. O'Donnell Mon, 07 May 2007 01:22:45 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/#comment-195516 erratum: Socrates or Plato erratum: Socrates or Plato

]]> By: Patrick S. O'Donnell http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/comment-page-1/#comment-195515 Patrick S. O'Donnell Mon, 07 May 2007 01:22:25 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/#comment-195515 Jim, That might be said to fairly capture the view of Thrasymachus (at least with regard to justice, but by implication...) but clearly is not the view of either Socrates and Plato. Jim,

That might be said to fairly capture the view of Thrasymachus (at least with regard to justice, but by implication…) but clearly is not the view of either Socrates and Plato.

]]> By: Jim Harrison http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/comment-page-1/#comment-195512 Jim Harrison Mon, 07 May 2007 00:51:13 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/#comment-195512 The Conservative versions of the Republic that I've encoutered omit the bit about the forms. Right and wrong, good and bad, beautiful and ugly, are simply what the ruling group says they are. The Conservative versions of the Republic that I’ve encoutered omit the bit about the forms. Right and wrong, good and bad, beautiful and ugly, are simply what the ruling group says they are.

]]> By: Keith M Ellis http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/comment-page-1/#comment-195479 Keith M Ellis Sun, 06 May 2007 20:16:00 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/#comment-195479 Yes, and the Noble Lie is the Guccis really are better shoes. Yes, and the Noble Lie is the Guccis really are better shoes.

]]> By: Ben Alpers http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/comment-page-1/#comment-195451 Ben Alpers Sun, 06 May 2007 14:43:46 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/#comment-195451 Mike (#19) is, of course, entirely correct. I'm a failure as a geek. Nonetheless, I'm pretty sure that the Excalbians considered Genghis Khan the embodiment of a philosophical principle (pace bi @ #22). Mike (#19) is, of course, entirely correct. I’m a failure as a geek.

Nonetheless, I’m pretty sure that the Excalbians considered Genghis Khan the embodiment of a philosophical principle (pace bi @ #22).

]]> By: Patrick S. O'Donnell http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/comment-page-1/#comment-195436 Patrick S. O'Donnell Sun, 06 May 2007 13:01:02 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/#comment-195436 Actually, it's not about the harmony between the sole and the city, it's the fact that the ideal city is the sole writ large, so as to better illustrate the ideal structure of the sole. I suppose in that case everything hinges upon what kind of shoe you were wearing such that the appetitive part could separate from the rational and spirited parts. notjonathon: The ideal polis is a 'city of words' in a nonpejorative utopian sense and was therefore never intended as any sort of blueprint for political action. Actually, it’s not about the harmony between the sole and the city, it’s the fact that the ideal city is the sole writ large, so as to better illustrate the ideal structure of the sole. I suppose in that case everything hinges upon what kind of shoe you were wearing such that the appetitive part could separate from the rational and spirited parts.

notjonathon: The ideal polis is a ‘city of words’ in a nonpejorative utopian sense and was therefore never intended as any sort of blueprint for political action.

]]> By: bi http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/comment-page-1/#comment-195431 bi Sun, 06 May 2007 11:44:55 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/#comment-195431 Ben Alpers: I don't think Genghis Khan ever tried to present himself as a "philosopher" in any sense of that word. Neither does Karl Rove, for that matter. I think Donald "as we know there are known knowns" Rumsfeld makes a better philosopher-king. Ben Alpers:

I don’t think Genghis Khan ever tried to present himself as a “philosopher” in any sense of that word. Neither does Karl Rove, for that matter. I think Donald “as we know there are known knowns” Rumsfeld makes a better philosopher-king.

]]> By: dearieme http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/comment-page-1/#comment-195429 dearieme Sun, 06 May 2007 11:03:28 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/#comment-195429 When lecturing on Plato, shouldn't one wear sandals? When lecturing on Plato, shouldn’t one wear sandals?

]]> By: jholbo http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/comment-page-1/#comment-195420 jholbo Sun, 06 May 2007 07:18:10 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/#comment-195420 Parable of the harmony between sole and city is good, very good. (Why didn't I think of that?) Parable of the harmony between sole and city is good, very good. (Why didn’t I think of that?)

]]> By: Mike http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/comment-page-1/#comment-195417 Mike Sun, 06 May 2007 05:28:49 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/#comment-195417 <i>And don’t forget Genghis Kahn, Kahless the Vulcan, and Col. Green!</i> Kahless was a Klingon, not a Vulcan. Surak was the Vulcan in that episode, and was one of the good guys, along with Abe Lincoln. Geez, get it right. And don’t forget Genghis Kahn, Kahless the Vulcan, and Col. Green!

Kahless was a Klingon, not a Vulcan. Surak was the Vulcan in that episode, and was one of the good guys, along with Abe Lincoln.

Geez, get it right.

]]> By: Matt http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/comment-page-1/#comment-195403 Matt Sun, 06 May 2007 01:36:27 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/#comment-195403 You can do the republic in much less than a half hour. You can sum up the whole argument in three words: "Of course, Socrates." You can do the republic in much less than a half hour. You can sum up the whole argument in three words: “Of course, Socrates.”

]]> By: Ben Alpers http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/comment-page-1/#comment-195400 Ben Alpers Sun, 06 May 2007 01:23:01 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/#comment-195400 <i>I don’t know what all the fuss is about: isn’t a common interpretive strain just that which argues that The Republic is a parable of the sole?</i> I always thought it was parable of the halibut. I don’t know what all the fuss is about: isn’t a common interpretive strain just that which argues that The Republic is a parable of the sole?

I always thought it was parable of the halibut.

]]> By: Ben Alpers http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/comment-page-1/#comment-195399 Ben Alpers Sun, 06 May 2007 01:21:26 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/#comment-195399 <i>As a model for the totalitarian state, it has its principles have informed not only Lenin and Karl Rove, but the Lee family of Singapore and Shintaro Ishihara, governor of Tokyo, a weather-vane for the ruling “Liberal Democratic” Party (I put the “Liberal Democratic” in quotes because the party is neither).</i> And don't forget <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savage_Curtain" rel="nofollow">Genghis Kahn, Kahless the Vulcan, and Col. Green</a>! As a model for the totalitarian state, it has its principles have informed not only Lenin and Karl Rove, but the Lee family of Singapore and Shintaro Ishihara, governor of Tokyo, a weather-vane for the ruling “Liberal Democratic” Party (I put the “Liberal Democratic” in quotes because the party is neither).

And don’t forget Genghis Kahn, Kahless the Vulcan, and Col. Green!

]]> By: Joel Turnipseed http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/comment-page-1/#comment-195398 Joel Turnipseed Sun, 06 May 2007 01:18:05 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/05/footnotes-to-plato/#comment-195398 I don't know what all the fuss is about: isn't a common interpretive strain just that which argues that <em>The Republic</em> is a parable of the sole? I don’t know what all the fuss is about: isn’t a common interpretive strain just that which argues that The Republic is a parable of the sole?

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