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	<title>Comments on: Annals of Annoying Students</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: jprime</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/comment-page-2/#comment-196241</link>
		<dc:creator>jprime</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 12:28:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/#comment-196241</guid>
		<description>I think you/we might be taking that student&#039;s email too seriously. The student might merely have thought &quot;I know this email is lame, but why not take a shot? The worst the professor can do is to say &#039;no&#039;&quot;

My students always test my boundaries where there are low costs and no potential penalties for doing so. After all, what do they have to lose by it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think you/we might be taking that student&#8217;s email too seriously. The student might merely have thought &#8220;I know this email is lame, but why not take a shot? The worst the professor can do is to say &#8216;no&#8217;&#8221;</p>

	<p>My students always test my boundaries where there are low costs and no potential penalties for doing so. After all, what do they have to lose by it?</p>
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		<title>By: cm</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/comment-page-2/#comment-196220</link>
		<dc:creator>cm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 07:11:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/#comment-196220</guid>
		<description>While I can&#039;t find it in me to be sympathetic to the student&#039;s request... I do find myself tempted to start a blog posting unprofessional, ungrammatical and simply ludicrous correspondence from professors.  Students do have a lot of nerve, or gall if you prefer, but there are plenty of professors out there who reward, and exemplify, misbehavior.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>While I can&#8217;t find it in me to be sympathetic to the student&#8217;s request&#8230; I do find myself tempted to start a blog posting unprofessional, ungrammatical and simply ludicrous correspondence from professors.  Students do have a lot of nerve, or gall if you prefer, but there are plenty of professors out there who reward, and exemplify, misbehavior.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: grad student</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/comment-page-2/#comment-196214</link>
		<dc:creator>grad student</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 05:19:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/#comment-196214</guid>
		<description>As an undergrad at a first-tier university to remain nameless, a first-year professor had a student in two of his classes who stopped attending classes after the midterm, and did not complete the final or the paper.  This professor pulled me and another senior/good student aside after class asking if he can just fail the guy, or if he has to jump through certain hoops, what consequences he might face, and whether this was typically done.  We both said &quot;Fail him, he didn&#039;t bother to do most of the coursework.  You have both the power and justification to do so.&quot;

However, I think there is a difference between people asking for a better grade when they don&#039;t bother to do the work, and people who are trying hard asking for extensions or makeups.  When I eventually TA (to the extent to which TAs have discretion over these things, and on deadlines they often do in practice at my institution, especially on minor assignments) and if I eventually become a professor, that distinction will probably remain important to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>As an undergrad at a first-tier university to remain nameless, a first-year professor had a student in two of his classes who stopped attending classes after the midterm, and did not complete the final or the paper.  This professor pulled me and another senior/good student aside after class asking if he can just fail the guy, or if he has to jump through certain hoops, what consequences he might face, and whether this was typically done.  We both said &#8220;Fail him, he didn&#8217;t bother to do most of the coursework.  You have both the power and justification to do so.&#8221;</p>

	<p>However, I think there is a difference between people asking for a better grade when they don&#8217;t bother to do the work, and people who are trying hard asking for extensions or makeups.  When I eventually <span class="caps">TA </span>(to the extent to which TAs have discretion over these things, and on deadlines they often do in practice at my institution, especially on minor assignments) and if I eventually become a professor, that distinction will probably remain important to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/comment-page-2/#comment-196200</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 03:09:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/#comment-196200</guid>
		<description>Friends, I such good memories from 30 years of university level instruction of many inventive methods of gaming the system, well beyond my student who seduced the ombudsman.

Ombudsmen are easy to deal with.

My first experience came during an anti-communist, witch-hunting period, in the late 1950’s. 

I was a new assistant professor.

An adult student came to my office at the start of the course to “discuss” his expectations of receiving an “A.”

He opened his briefcase, moved aside the cocked and locked Colt M1911A1 pistol and handed me a piece of stationary for his very own private church. 

“This is a completely legal organization,” he said, “the state knows about it.”

On the right side of the letterhead I saw the names of every organization on the government’s subversive list, starting with the American Communist Party. 

On the left side of the letterhead he had a list of names of with himself as “Head Priest,” his spouse as “Vestal Virgin,” and a dozen names as “Significant Contributors.”

“I write crank letters to J. Edgar Hoover,” he said, “on a run of letterhead with the names of people who piss me off as my Significant Contributors.”

He smiled, told me it was a pleasure to meet me, and he looked forward to the course.

The student was quite bright and easily finished at the head of the class, but he brought his briefcase to every class, perhaps just in case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Friends, I such good memories from 30 years of university level instruction of many inventive methods of gaming the system, well beyond my student who seduced the ombudsman.</p>

	<p>Ombudsmen are easy to deal with.</p>

	<p>My first experience came during an anti-communist, witch-hunting period, in the late 1950&#8217;s.</p>

	<p>I was a new assistant professor.</p>

	<p>An adult student came to my office at the start of the course to &#8220;discuss&#8221; his expectations of receiving an &#8220;A.&#8221;</p>

	<p>He opened his briefcase, moved aside the cocked and locked Colt <span class="caps">M1911A1</span> pistol and handed me a piece of stationary for his very own private church.</p>

	<p>&#8220;This is a completely legal organization,&#8221; he said, &#8220;the state knows about it.&#8221;</p>

	<p>On the right side of the letterhead I saw the names of every organization on the government&#8217;s subversive list, starting with the American Communist Party.</p>

	<p>On the left side of the letterhead he had a list of names of with himself as &#8220;Head Priest,&#8221; his spouse as &#8220;Vestal Virgin,&#8221; and a dozen names as &#8220;Significant Contributors.&#8221;</p>

	<p>&#8220;I write crank letters to J. Edgar Hoover,&#8221; he said, &#8220;on a run of letterhead with the names of people who piss me off as my Significant Contributors.&#8221;</p>

	<p>He smiled, told me it was a pleasure to meet me, and he looked forward to the course.</p>

	<p>The student was quite bright and easily finished at the head of the class, but he brought his briefcase to every class, perhaps just in case.</p>
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		<title>By: Antti Nannimus</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/comment-page-2/#comment-196187</link>
		<dc:creator>Antti Nannimus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 01:10:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/#comment-196187</guid>
		<description>Hi,

In the real world, you either do the work well and turn it in on time, or you&#039;ll probably flunk out. 

Sorry, no appeal, no mercy. 

That&#039;s why we call it the real world.

If you don&#039;t flunk out, you lucked out, even though you didn&#039;t deserve it. Somebody screwed up. Don&#039;t count on it ever happening again.

Have a nice day!

Antti</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hi,</p>

	<p>In the real world, you either do the work well and turn it in on time, or you&#8217;ll probably flunk out.</p>

	<p>Sorry, no appeal, no mercy.</p>

	<p>That&#8217;s why we call it the real world.</p>

	<p>If you don&#8217;t flunk out, you lucked out, even though you didn&#8217;t deserve it. Somebody screwed up. Don&#8217;t count on it ever happening again.</p>

	<p>Have a nice day!</p>

	<p>Antti</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Burt Likko</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/comment-page-2/#comment-196179</link>
		<dc:creator>Burt Likko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 23:22:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/#comment-196179</guid>
		<description>I make a little bit of extra money facilitating classes for the University of Phoenix Online.  I get requests like this about once a class.  I call these sorts my &quot;special needs&quot; students.  They all have some kind of a &quot;special need&quot; that they think should grant them a dispensation from the syllabus or otherwise doing what the class requires of them.  For instance:

1.  I accidentally did the wrong test; please let me re-take it even though you&#039;ve now posted the answer key.  (No.)

2.  I accidentally forgot to take the final exam; please grade me as though I were not required to have done so.  (No.)

3.  I have great difficulty writing good research papers because you&#039;re the first instructor I&#039;ve ever had who required me to use the APA citation format.  Please give my paper an &quot;A&quot; because of my inexperience with this standard.  (No.)

4.  I should get an &quot;A&quot; on my research paper because no professor has ever asked me to use good grammar and speling before so i didn&#039;t know that was a requirement.  (I don&#039;t think so.)

5.  Please give me an &quot;A&quot; on the final exam even though I turned it in to the wrong instructor in the wrong class.  (No.)

6.  Please submit a grade change card raising my grade from a &quot;D&quot; to an &quot;A&quot; because no instructor has ever given me less than an &quot;A&quot; before in my entire time at this school.  I paid my money, I deserve the grade.  (I beg your pardon?  No.)

The only time I&#039;ve ever granted such a &quot;special request&quot; like this was when I got this one for a quiz turned in half an hour late:

7.  Please accept my quiz even though it is submitted half an hour late.  The power went out because the Taliban cut off the electricity to the bunker and my unit had to be dispatched to neutralize the enemy.  I was able to reconstruct my work, but unfortunately HQ had to file a report of these events first and that ate up most of our bandwidth as the deadline for the quiz was passing.  /s/ Sgt. [Student&#039;s name omitted], somewhere near Kabul, Afghanistan.

That last one seemed like a pretty good excuse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I make a little bit of extra money facilitating classes for the University of Phoenix Online.  I get requests like this about once a class.  I call these sorts my &#8220;special needs&#8221; students.  They all have some kind of a &#8220;special need&#8221; that they think should grant them a dispensation from the syllabus or otherwise doing what the class requires of them.  For instance:</p>

	<p>1.  I accidentally did the wrong test; please let me re-take it even though you&#8217;ve now posted the answer key.  (No.)</p>

	<p>2.  I accidentally forgot to take the final exam; please grade me as though I were not required to have done so.  (No.)</p>

	<p>3.  I have great difficulty writing good research papers because you&#8217;re the first instructor I&#8217;ve ever had who required me to use the <span class="caps">APA</span> citation format.  Please give my paper an &#8220;A&#8221; because of my inexperience with this standard.  (No.)</p>

	<p>4.  I should get an &#8220;A&#8221; on my research paper because no professor has ever asked me to use good grammar and speling before so i didn&#8217;t know that was a requirement.  (I don&#8217;t think so.)</p>

	<p>5.  Please give me an &#8220;A&#8221; on the final exam even though I turned it in to the wrong instructor in the wrong class.  (No.)</p>

	<p>6.  Please submit a grade change card raising my grade from a &#8220;D&#8221; to an &#8220;A&#8221; because no instructor has ever given me less than an &#8220;A&#8221; before in my entire time at this school.  I paid my money, I deserve the grade.  (I beg your pardon?  No.)</p>

	<p>The only time I&#8217;ve ever granted such a &#8220;special request&#8221; like this was when I got this one for a quiz turned in half an hour late:</p>

	<p>7.  Please accept my quiz even though it is submitted half an hour late.  The power went out because the Taliban cut off the electricity to the bunker and my unit had to be dispatched to neutralize the enemy.  I was able to reconstruct my work, but unfortunately HQ had to file a report of these events first and that ate up most of our bandwidth as the deadline for the quiz was passing.  /s/ Sgt. [Student&#8217;s name omitted], somewhere near Kabul, Afghanistan.</p>

	<p>That last one seemed like a pretty good excuse.</p>
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		<title>By: D Lacey</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/comment-page-2/#comment-196150</link>
		<dc:creator>D Lacey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 20:32:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/#comment-196150</guid>
		<description>I have the nightmares too.  Except most of the time, I&#039;m teaching the classes rather than attending them, and I miss several.  When I really taught at a college, I didn&#039;t miss classes.  No idea why that particular recurring dream is so common, but it sure seems to be.

I think the extreme humorous shock stance taken here at the request is too much.  Sure, you can say no, but what&#039;s the real problem with accepting late work at a lower credit rate?  Maybe for every year late it has to be 20% better to get the same grade ;)  

Late, but well done, work in real life, is often far more valuable than on time, adequately but slipshodly done work.  In real life you have to maintain your code, you have the potential of second and third and subsequent printings of your book... the endeavors that favor doing it adequately on time are relatively limited.  

I agree that the rhetoric in the letter is inappropriate to the situation.  Maybe I&#039;ve just been out of academia too long to see the point in the generalized rejection.  What would be wrong, in theory, of giving students unlimited time to turn in work, and withholding their grades till it was all turned in?  I&#039;m probably missing something terribly obvious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I have the nightmares too.  Except most of the time, I&#8217;m teaching the classes rather than attending them, and I miss several.  When I really taught at a college, I didn&#8217;t miss classes.  No idea why that particular recurring dream is so common, but it sure seems to be.</p>

	<p>I think the extreme humorous shock stance taken here at the request is too much.  Sure, you can say no, but what&#8217;s the real problem with accepting late work at a lower credit rate?  Maybe for every year late it has to be 20% better to get the same grade ;)</p>

	<p>Late, but well done, work in real life, is often far more valuable than on time, adequately but slipshodly done work.  In real life you have to maintain your code, you have the potential of second and third and subsequent printings of your book&#8230; the endeavors that favor doing it adequately on time are relatively limited.</p>

	<p>I agree that the rhetoric in the letter is inappropriate to the situation.  Maybe I&#8217;ve just been out of academia too long to see the point in the generalized rejection.  What would be wrong, in theory, of giving students unlimited time to turn in work, and withholding their grades till it was all turned in?  I&#8217;m probably missing something terribly obvious.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Mosher</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/comment-page-2/#comment-196139</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Mosher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 19:50:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/#comment-196139</guid>
		<description>Re: 51--the two are often related.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Re: 51&#8212;the two are often related.</p>
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		<title>By: Kate</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/comment-page-2/#comment-196138</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 19:49:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/#comment-196138</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve had plenty of professors who seemingly welcomed late papers as it allowed them more time to &quot;grade.&quot; And I&#039;ve never met a professor who didn&#039;t offer extensions, though I know they exist.  Changing grade is another matter entirely, however.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;ve had plenty of professors who seemingly welcomed late papers as it allowed them more time to &#8220;grade.&#8221; And I&#8217;ve never met a professor who didn&#8217;t offer extensions, though I know they exist.  Changing grade is another matter entirely, however.</p>
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		<title>By: Keith Thompson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/comment-page-2/#comment-196136</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith Thompson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 19:48:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/#comment-196136</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;That kid isn’t less smart because he failed to turn in a paper, or because he was insufficiently humble towards a professor.&lt;/i&gt;

No, he failed to turn in a paper because he&#039;s less smart.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>That kid isn&#8217;t less smart because he failed to turn in a paper, or because he was insufficiently humble towards a professor.</i></p>

	<p>No, he failed to turn in a paper because he&#8217;s less smart.</p>
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		<title>By: squsie</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/comment-page-2/#comment-196135</link>
		<dc:creator>squsie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 19:48:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/#comment-196135</guid>
		<description>What’s the purpose of “education” anyway, turning in papers or increasing knowledge?



Well, if you decide that you want the certification of education represented by a university degree, you might just have to play the game by the rules.  Otherwise, run wild, run free, you autodidact you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What&#8217;s the purpose of &#8220;education&#8221; anyway, turning in papers or increasing knowledge?</p>



	<p>Well, if you decide that you want the certification of education represented by a university degree, you might just have to play the game by the rules.  Otherwise, run wild, run free, you autodidact you!</p>
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		<title>By: An individual</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/comment-page-2/#comment-196131</link>
		<dc:creator>An individual</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 19:22:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/#comment-196131</guid>
		<description>What&#039;s the purpose of &quot;education&quot; anyway, turning in papers or increasing knowledge?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What&#8217;s the purpose of &#8220;education&#8221; anyway, turning in papers or increasing knowledge?</p>
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		<title>By: An individual</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/comment-page-1/#comment-196130</link>
		<dc:creator>An individual</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 19:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/#comment-196130</guid>
		<description>The character in the movie is called Pink. I always assumed his full name was Pink Floyd.

If you ask Mr. Abe Lincoln, he might tell you that there used to be a place for the self-educated. Today you need an Official Document™.

That kid isn&#039;t less smart because he failed to turn in a paper, or because he was insufficiently humble towards a professor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The character in the movie is called Pink. I always assumed his full name was Pink Floyd.</p>

	<p>If you ask Mr. Abe Lincoln, he might tell you that there used to be a place for the self-educated. Today you need an Official Document&#8482;.</p>

	<p>That kid isn&#8217;t less smart because he failed to turn in a paper, or because he was insufficiently humble towards a professor.</p>
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		<title>By: bud</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/comment-page-1/#comment-196127</link>
		<dc:creator>bud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 19:04:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/#comment-196127</guid>
		<description>&quot;bloix&quot; in #17 has obviously never heard of the &quot;Wally Period&quot;.

Scott Adams certainly exagerates for comic effect, but _Dilbert_ maps much more closely to the real world than most college courses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;bloix&#8221; in #17 has obviously never heard of the &#8220;Wally Period&#8221;.</p>

	<p>Scott Adams certainly exagerates for comic effect, but <em>Dilbert</em> maps much more closely to the real world than most college courses.</p>
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		<title>By: Tully</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/comment-page-1/#comment-196122</link>
		<dc:creator>Tully</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 18:31:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/09/annals-of-annoying-students/#comment-196122</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Posted by An individual: “To quote Mr. Floyd, “I don’t need no ‘education’”.”

Uh, Pink Floyd is a band, not a man.&lt;/i&gt;

Oh by the way, which one&#039;s Pink?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Posted by An individual: &#8220;To quote Mr. Floyd, &#8220;I don&#8217;t need no &#8216;education&#8217;&#8221;.&#8221;</i></p>

	<p>Uh, Pink Floyd is a band, not a man.</p>

	<p>Oh by the way, which one&#8217;s Pink?</p>
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