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	<title>Comments on: The myth of Tulipmania</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Valuethinker</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/comment-page-1/#comment-196639</link>
		<dc:creator>Valuethinker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 May 2007 10:57:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/#comment-196639</guid>
		<description>33

Unfortunately I was left with the impression from Garber&#039;s book that in the sequel he will deny that there was ever a dot com/TMT bubble and crash.  

There *was* a South Sea Bubble and it had big political impacts.  And John Law&#039;s invention of paper money (the French Louisiana Bubble) was also very real.

Economists like to say there are no bubbles, and if it was a bubble, we would only know afterwards.

But there&#039;s a wealth of evidence there *are* bubbles.  Everyone remembers the dot com one, (although in fact the media-telecommunications one was far, far larger), but this is only one of many-- see John Brooks &#039;The Go Go Years&#039; for the tech bubble - of 1960 to 1964.  Any stock with &#039;tech&#039; in the company name went through the roof.

Or see Shanghai&#039;s stockmarket right now.  Or the Saudi Arabian one until the middle of last year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>33</p>

	<p>Unfortunately I was left with the impression from Garber&#8217;s book that in the sequel he will deny that there was ever a dot com/TMT bubble and crash.</p>

	<p>There <strong>was</strong> a South Sea Bubble and it had big political impacts.  And John Law&#8217;s invention of paper money (the French Louisiana Bubble) was also very real.</p>

	<p>Economists like to say there are no bubbles, and if it was a bubble, we would only know afterwards.</p>

	<p>But there&#8217;s a wealth of evidence there <strong>are</strong> bubbles.  Everyone remembers the dot com one, (although in fact the media-telecommunications one was far, far larger), but this is only one of many&#8212;see John Brooks &#8216;The Go Go Years&#8217; for the tech bubble &#8211; of 1960 to 1964.  Any stock with &#8216;tech&#8217; in the company name went through the roof.</p>

	<p>Or see Shanghai&#8217;s stockmarket right now.  Or the Saudi Arabian one until the middle of last year.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: trialsanderrors</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/comment-page-1/#comment-196507</link>
		<dc:creator>trialsanderrors</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 May 2007 22:04:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/#comment-196507</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I doubt you have read this book&lt;/i&gt;

No I haven&#039;t. It&#039;s perfectly possible that the book is an accurate and in-depth investigation of the events, but I don&#039;t see any evidence that either the FT reviewer or Chris probed this. If a core message of the book is &quot;Don&#039;t take exemplary stories on faith alone&quot; it seems to have fallen on deaf ears.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I doubt you have read this book</i></p>

	<p>No I haven&#8217;t. It&#8217;s perfectly possible that the book is an accurate and in-depth investigation of the events, but I don&#8217;t see any evidence that either the FT reviewer or Chris probed this. If a core message of the book is &#8220;Don&#8217;t take exemplary stories on faith alone&#8221; it seems to have fallen on deaf ears.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/comment-page-1/#comment-196501</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 May 2007 19:22:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/#comment-196501</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;“The last charge you [can] make against this book is shoddiness.”&lt;/i&gt;

or: “The last charge you make against this book is [itself a mark of] shoddiness.”

careful with that interpolating iron.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8220;The last charge you [can] make against this book is shoddiness.&#8221;</i></p>

	<p>or: &#8220;The last charge you make against this book is [itself a mark of] shoddiness.&#8221;</p>

	<p>careful with that interpolating iron.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: jarvis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/comment-page-1/#comment-196494</link>
		<dc:creator>jarvis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 May 2007 17:54:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/#comment-196494</guid>
		<description>This book does different things from Garber&#039;s one because it talks about the way the tulip craze fits into Dutch history and culture of the time. From what I&#039;ve read of it, the debunking aspect is only a piece of what Goldgar is trying to do. There&#039;s a lot there about relationship of tulips to art and the art market, a study of the way local communities worked, material on what the Dutch were worried about in this period (social change, for example).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This book does different things from Garber&#8217;s one because it talks about the way the tulip craze fits into Dutch history and culture of the time. From what I&#8217;ve read of it, the debunking aspect is only a piece of what Goldgar is trying to do. There&#8217;s a lot there about relationship of tulips to art and the art market, a study of the way local communities worked, material on what the Dutch were worried about in this period (social change, for example).</p>
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		<title>By: Bob B</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/comment-page-1/#comment-196476</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 May 2007 15:57:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/#comment-196476</guid>
		<description>#32: &quot;The last charge you [can] make against this book is shoddiness.&quot;

Great. As a quick dip into this literature soon demonstrates, crucial subtext issues in all this relate to whether asset price bubbles are irrational and whether the Efficient Market Hypothesis holds up.

I&#039;m entirely prepared to accept that claims about Dutch Tulipmania in the early 17th century owe more to myth than historical fact. But I&#039;m far less willing to write-off the possibility of &quot;irrational exuberance&quot; in asset prices.

The South Sea Bubble literature reverts to that topical debate more starkly, starting with a famous contemporary commentary by Daniel Defoe:

&quot;A year before the world’s first great stockmarket crash in 1720, Daniel Defoe wrote his famous condemnation of the broking community. The Anatomy of Exchange Alley (1719) describes in detail various alleged market manipulations and sham reports generated to push up stock prices to the advantage of the perpetrators. &#039;Tis a compleat system of knavery; that ’tis a trade founded in fraud, born of deceit, and nourished by trick, cheat, wheedle, forgeries, falsehoods,&#039; he blustered.&quot;
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/82e34474-f4b4-11db-b748-000b5df10621.html

Sadly, I can&#039;t find an online link to Defoe&#039;s tract.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#32: &#8220;The last charge you [can] make against this book is shoddiness.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Great. As a quick dip into this literature soon demonstrates, crucial subtext issues in all this relate to whether asset price bubbles are irrational and whether the Efficient Market Hypothesis holds up.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m entirely prepared to accept that claims about Dutch Tulipmania in the early 17th century owe more to myth than historical fact. But I&#8217;m far less willing to write-off the possibility of &#8220;irrational exuberance&#8221; in asset prices.</p>

	<p>The South Sea Bubble literature reverts to that topical debate more starkly, starting with a famous contemporary commentary by Daniel Defoe:</p>

	<p>&#8220;A year before the world&#8217;s first great stockmarket crash in 1720, Daniel Defoe wrote his famous condemnation of the broking community. The Anatomy of Exchange Alley (1719) describes in detail various alleged market manipulations and sham reports generated to push up stock prices to the advantage of the perpetrators. &#8216;Tis a compleat system of knavery; that &#8217;tis a trade founded in fraud, born of deceit, and nourished by trick, cheat, wheedle, forgeries, falsehoods,&#8217; he blustered.&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://www.ft.com/cms/s/82e34474-f4b4-11db-b748-000b5df10621.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.ft.com/cms/s/82e34474-f4b4-11db-b748-000b5df10621.html</a></p>

	<p>Sadly, I can&#8217;t find an online link to Defoe&#8217;s tract.</p>
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		<title>By: eudoxis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/comment-page-1/#comment-196467</link>
		<dc:creator>eudoxis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 May 2007 13:21:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/#comment-196467</guid>
		<description>Peter Garber debunked the myth of tulipmania in his &lt;i&gt;Famous First Bubbles:  The Fundamentals of Early Manias&lt;/i&gt;, published in 2000.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Peter Garber debunked the myth of tulipmania in his <i>Famous First Bubbles:  The Fundamentals of Early Manias</i>, published in 2000.</p>
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		<title>By: fansnoli</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/comment-page-1/#comment-196456</link>
		<dc:creator>fansnoli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 May 2007 10:57:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/#comment-196456</guid>
		<description>bq. this is evidenced by what? Shoddy rebunkings of shoddy myths are almost as ubiquitous as shoddy myths,

I doubt you have read this book, let alone the notes or you would realise that Goldgar has gone back to the original documents in Haarlem, Amsterdam, Enkhuizen, Leiden and elsewhere to examine what they actually say. 

It is shoddy to repeat mistakes made by people who read the documents in the 1920s. It is shoddy to repeat hoary myths that go back to Mayhew and beyond without substantiating them from the primary sources. The last charge you make against this book is shoddiness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<blockquote>this is evidenced by what? Shoddy rebunkings of shoddy myths are almost as ubiquitous as shoddy myths,</blockquote>

	<p>I doubt you have read this book, let alone the notes or you would realise that Goldgar has gone back to the original documents in Haarlem, Amsterdam, Enkhuizen, Leiden and elsewhere to examine what they actually say.</p>

	<p>It is shoddy to repeat mistakes made by people who read the documents in the 1920s. It is shoddy to repeat hoary myths that go back to Mayhew and beyond without substantiating them from the primary sources. The last charge you make against this book is shoddiness.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/comment-page-1/#comment-196441</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 May 2007 06:14:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/#comment-196441</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;this is evidenced by what? Shoddy rebunkings of shoddy myths are almost as ubiquitous as shoddy myths,&lt;/i&gt;

I imagine there may be some evidence in the book, which I&#039;m disinclined to praise or damn until I&#039;ve read it. If you like, I can point to my own review when I&#039;ve done so.

BTW: &quot;rebunking&quot; strikes me as a useful term, possibly relevant to the conservapedia chatter upstream. Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>this is evidenced by what? Shoddy rebunkings of shoddy myths are almost as ubiquitous as shoddy myths,</i></p>

	<p>I imagine there may be some evidence in the book, which I&#8217;m disinclined to praise or damn until I&#8217;ve read it. If you like, I can point to my own review when I&#8217;ve done so.</p>

	<p><span class="caps">BTW</span>: &#8220;rebunking&#8221; strikes me as a useful term, possibly relevant to the conservapedia chatter upstream. Thanks.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/comment-page-1/#comment-196431</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 May 2007 04:18:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/#comment-196431</guid>
		<description>Far from it, Daniel.  I found your defence of Budweiser so inspiring that I &lt;i&gt;want&lt;/i&gt; it to be true.  The next time I have a party, I&#039;m going to subject the guests to a blind taste test to find out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Far from it, Daniel.  I found your defence of Budweiser so inspiring that I <i>want</i> it to be true.  The next time I have a party, I&#8217;m going to subject the guests to a blind taste test to find out.</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/comment-page-1/#comment-196425</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 May 2007 02:07:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/#comment-196425</guid>
		<description>We&#039;re just waiting for your proof that Budweiser is better than Hamms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>We&#8217;re just waiting for your proof that Budweiser is better than Hamms.</p>
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		<title>By: dsquared</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/comment-page-1/#comment-196411</link>
		<dc:creator>dsquared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 May 2007 23:59:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/#comment-196411</guid>
		<description>everyone fucking hates me now because of that Budweiser thing, don&#039;t they?  It&#039;s a quite unpleasant, if not exactly unfamiliar, sensation.  Wait till the Wrexham local newspaper gets wind of it and we get a few dozen outraged Wrexhamites visting, then my misery will be complete.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>everyone fucking hates me now because of that Budweiser thing, don&#8217;t they?  It&#8217;s a quite unpleasant, if not exactly unfamiliar, sensation.  Wait till the Wrexham local newspaper gets wind of it and we get a few dozen outraged Wrexhamites visting, then my misery will be complete.</p>
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		<title>By: trialsanderrors</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/comment-page-1/#comment-196404</link>
		<dc:creator>trialsanderrors</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 May 2007 22:37:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/#comment-196404</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Disappointingly, it turns out that most of the stories are false.&lt;/i&gt;

And this is evidenced by what? Shoddy rebunkings of shoddy myths are almost as ubiquitous as shoddy myths, as the QWERTY dust-up or D²&#039;s flawed retelling of the flawed history of the Budweiser brand has amply demonstrated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Disappointingly, it turns out that most of the stories are false.</i></p>

	<p>And this is evidenced by what? Shoddy rebunkings of shoddy myths are almost as ubiquitous as shoddy myths, as the <span class="caps">QWERTY</span> dust-up or D&#178;&#8217;s flawed retelling of the flawed history of the Budweiser brand has amply demonstrated.</p>
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		<title>By: Bernard Yomtov</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/comment-page-1/#comment-196392</link>
		<dc:creator>Bernard Yomtov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 May 2007 19:52:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/#comment-196392</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;“The prize must surely go to the unknown soul who started ‘A Company for carrying on undertaking of great advantage, but nobody knows what it is.’ &lt;/i&gt;

Isn&#039;t this essentially the prospectus for some hedge funds?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8220;The prize must surely go to the unknown soul who started &#8216;A Company for carrying on undertaking of great advantage, but nobody knows what it is.&#8217; </i></p>

	<p>Isn&#8217;t this essentially the prospectus for some hedge funds?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Alan Kellogg</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/comment-page-1/#comment-196389</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Kellogg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 May 2007 19:05:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/#comment-196389</guid>
		<description>I once sold $24.00 in Magic The Gathering cards for $200.00. The man who bought them said he expected to get $2,000.00 for them. Five payments of $40.00 each.

The day of the last payment he wanted to know if I&#039;d be interested in buying the cards back. The bubble had just burst, and he was now expecting to get $40.00 for the lot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I once sold $24.00 in Magic The Gathering cards for $200.00. The man who bought them said he expected to get $2,000.00 for them. Five payments of $40.00 each.</p>

	<p>The day of the last payment he wanted to know if I&#8217;d be interested in buying the cards back. The bubble had just burst, and he was now expecting to get $40.00 for the lot.</p>
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		<title>By: dsquared</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/comment-page-1/#comment-196360</link>
		<dc:creator>dsquared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 May 2007 15:20:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/12/the-myth-of-tulipmania/#comment-196360</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t really like chocolate so this is all quite academic to me.  &quot;Does your mother know you&#039;re out?&quot; as they apparently used to say all day long in eighteenth century London.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t really like chocolate so this is all quite academic to me.  &#8220;Does your mother know you&#8217;re out?&#8221; as they apparently used to say all day long in eighteenth century London.</p>
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