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	<title>Comments on: Justice as Fun-ness</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: C. L. Ball</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/comment-page-1/#comment-197298</link>
		<dc:creator>C. L. Ball</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2007 13:17:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/#comment-197298</guid>
		<description>Re #21, Yan:

You spoiled my fun reading this post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Re #21, Yan:</p>

	<p>You spoiled my fun reading this post.</p>
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		<title>By: Glorious Godfrey</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/comment-page-1/#comment-197255</link>
		<dc:creator>Glorious Godfrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 May 2007 20:42:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/#comment-197255</guid>
		<description>With your permission, I’ll follow up on Joel’s post at #25 and go off on a useless tangent.

One can get very, very pissed after losing a game of go:

&lt;i&gt; It seems that Yurugi Motoharu, governor of the fief of Tamba, a region near Osaka, was not only accomplished in swordsmanship and literature but also was extremely fond of go. Hearing that a certain blind monk in his domain was a skillful player, Motoharu invited him to have a game. The monk played well but tactlessly, even jeering at some of Motoharu&#039;s moves. The result was that the young lord lost his temper, drew his sword, and decapitated the monk with one blow -- thus, as the text says, punning on technical go terms, finding the vital spot with a move that proved more decisive than all the kos and ladders that the other had been able to think up, with the result that even though his stones had eyes, the eyeless monk lost the game.

After this, the monk&#039;s ghost began to make a nuisance of itself by poking its head over the garden wall and whining How about another game? Just one more game? Finally one of Motoharu&#039;s retainers arranged for a solemn burial service for the monk. With his spirit thus placated, the ghost appeared no more. &lt;/i&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.kiseido.com/printss/ukiyoedx.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; this site &lt;/a&gt; has several nice woodblock prints (ukiyo-e) depicting sore losers at go and other related scenes (&quot;go-Board Tadanobu&quot; is a personal favourite).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>With your permission, I&#8217;ll follow up on Joel&#8217;s post at #25 and go off on a useless tangent.</p>

	<p>One can get very, very pissed after losing a game of go:</p>

	<p><i> It seems that Yurugi Motoharu, governor of the fief of Tamba, a region near Osaka, was not only accomplished in swordsmanship and literature but also was extremely fond of go. Hearing that a certain blind monk in his domain was a skillful player, Motoharu invited him to have a game. The monk played well but tactlessly, even jeering at some of Motoharu&#8217;s moves. The result was that the young lord lost his temper, drew his sword, and decapitated the monk with one blow&#8212;thus, as the text says, punning on technical go terms, finding the vital spot with a move that proved more decisive than all the kos and ladders that the other had been able to think up, with the result that even though his stones had eyes, the eyeless monk lost the game.</i></p>

	<p>After this, the monk&#8217;s ghost began to make a nuisance of itself by poking its head over the garden wall and whining How about another game? Just one more game? Finally one of Motoharu&#8217;s retainers arranged for a solemn burial service for the monk. With his spirit thus placated, the ghost appeared no more. </p>

	<p><a href="http://www.kiseido.com/printss/ukiyoedx.html" rel="nofollow"> this site </a> has several nice woodblock prints (ukiyo-e) depicting sore losers at go and other related scenes (&#8220;go-Board Tadanobu&#8221; is a personal favourite).</p>
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		<title>By: a</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/comment-page-1/#comment-197161</link>
		<dc:creator>a</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 May 2007 16:38:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/#comment-197161</guid>
		<description>Connect Four :  first player wins (i.e. first player should win)

My four-year old&#039;s current favorites are Uno and Junior Stratego.  There&#039;s some strategy, but there&#039;s also some luck.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Connect Four :  first player wins (i.e. first player should win)</p>

	<p>My four-year old&#8217;s current favorites are Uno and Junior Stratego.  There&#8217;s some strategy, but there&#8217;s also some luck.</p>
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		<title>By: Belle Waring</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/comment-page-1/#comment-197068</link>
		<dc:creator>Belle Waring</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 May 2007 05:23:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/#comment-197068</guid>
		<description>I think Zoë inherited this fair and square from me. I can&#039;t get good at chess, because you have to lose a lot to better players first. John always beats me, which I hate, so I quit playing (drawing the homer conclusion). this is so even though I feel pretty confident I could get as good as John if I practiced and was willing to lose. I still think chess problems are fun though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think Zo&#235; inherited this fair and square from me. I can&#8217;t get good at chess, because you have to lose a lot to better players first. John always beats me, which I hate, so I quit playing (drawing the homer conclusion). this is so even though I feel pretty confident I could get as good as John if I practiced and was willing to lose. I still think chess problems are fun though.</p>
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		<title>By: Kieran Healy&#8217;s Weblog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Elementary Structures of Kinship</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/comment-page-1/#comment-197048</link>
		<dc:creator>Kieran Healy&#8217;s Weblog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Elementary Structures of Kinship</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 May 2007 01:21:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/#comment-197048</guid>
		<description>[...] as the kids are on the front page, indulge me a bit. My wife had a baby boy early yesterday morning (hurray!) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] as the kids are on the front page, indulge me a bit. My wife had a baby boy early yesterday morning (hurray!) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Crooked Timber &#187; &#187; The Elementary Structures of Kinship</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/comment-page-1/#comment-197044</link>
		<dc:creator>Crooked Timber &#187; &#187; The Elementary Structures of Kinship</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 May 2007 00:41:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/#comment-197044</guid>
		<description>[...] as the kids are on the front page, indulge me a bit. My wife gave birth early yesterday morning (hurray!) and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] as the kids are on the front page, indulge me a bit. My wife gave birth early yesterday morning (hurray!) and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: bob mcmanus</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/comment-page-1/#comment-197043</link>
		<dc:creator>bob mcmanus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 May 2007 00:35:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/#comment-197043</guid>
		<description>Although 1. g3?! h5! with opposite side castling, since White has almost abandoned thw initiative, can open up the game. What was his name, the schmuck who placed last in all those 20s tournaments? Thomas?

No. I am not returning to chess. Never again. Horrible masochism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Although 1. g3?! h5! with opposite side castling, since White has almost abandoned thw initiative, can open up the game. What was his name, the schmuck who placed last in all those 20s tournaments? Thomas?</p>

	<p>No. I am not returning to chess. Never again. Horrible masochism.</p>
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		<title>By: bob mcmanus</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/comment-page-1/#comment-197042</link>
		<dc:creator>bob mcmanus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 May 2007 00:22:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/#comment-197042</guid>
		<description>&quot;because the winning strategy for one side is to play in such a way that the other side doesn’t have fun.&quot;

Opening 1. g3 as White. I hated those bastards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;because the winning strategy for one side is to play in such a way that the other side doesn&#8217;t have fun.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Opening 1. g3 as White. I hated those bastards.</p>
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		<title>By: tpjim</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/comment-page-1/#comment-196999</link>
		<dc:creator>tpjim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 May 2007 14:44:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/#comment-196999</guid>
		<description>bi, #37:

Only very loosely (though I speak as someone with very little experience within a typical corporate hierarchy).  Progress is only personal if it&#039;s toward personally chosen goals, not the ones imposed from without by the hierarchy.  You can organize your work itself so that it provides you progressive challenges that are fun to meet; or you can view your performance on the job as part of striving toward a larger self-set goal -- furthering a good cause, providing for the family you love, keeping your belly full while you explore the possibilities of your deeply unprofitable art.

Too many jobs provide neither of these opportunities, of course. To me that&#039;s a violation of one&#039;s right to the pursuit of happiness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>bi, #37:</p>

	<p>Only very loosely (though I speak as someone with very little experience within a typical corporate hierarchy).  Progress is only personal if it&#8217;s toward personally chosen goals, not the ones imposed from without by the hierarchy.  You can organize your work itself so that it provides you progressive challenges that are fun to meet; or you can view your performance on the job as part of striving toward a larger self-set goal&#8212;furthering a good cause, providing for the family you love, keeping your belly full while you explore the possibilities of your deeply unprofitable art.</p>

	<p>Too many jobs provide neither of these opportunities, of course. To me that&#8217;s a violation of one&#8217;s right to the pursuit of happiness.</p>
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		<title>By: bi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/comment-page-1/#comment-196982</link>
		<dc:creator>bi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 May 2007 12:21:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/#comment-196982</guid>
		<description>loren, tpjim:

&quot;we should encourage kids to take up activities that are less about interpersonal competition and more about personal challenge&quot;

Right on. Losing only &quot;builds character&quot; (#14) or makes one &quot;stronger&quot; (#19) if there&#039;s personal progress involved.

The real question of course is this: how does this tie in with competition within a typical corporate hierarchy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>loren, tpjim:</p>

	<p>&#8220;we should encourage kids to take up activities that are less about interpersonal competition and more about personal challenge&#8221;</p>

	<p>Right on. Losing only &#8220;builds character&#8221; (#14) or makes one &#8220;stronger&#8221; (#19) if there&#8217;s personal progress involved.</p>

	<p>The real question of course is this: how does this tie in with competition within a typical corporate hierarchy?</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Saunders</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/comment-page-1/#comment-196974</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Saunders</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 May 2007 10:53:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/#comment-196974</guid>
		<description>As Homer Simpson says, &quot;The lesson is never try&quot;. Given that the complaint seems to be not about losing, but not having fun - despite trying - I&#039;m surprised you haven&#039;t introduced her to the paradox of hedonism...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>As Homer Simpson says, &#8220;The lesson is never try&#8221;. Given that the complaint seems to be not about losing, but not having fun &#8211; despite trying &#8211; I&#8217;m surprised you haven&#8217;t introduced her to the paradox of hedonism&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: ed</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/comment-page-1/#comment-196946</link>
		<dc:creator>ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 May 2007 02:21:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/#comment-196946</guid>
		<description>Try playing &quot;Connect Four&quot; instead of &quot;Tic Tac Toe&quot;.  The two games are mostly the same, but &quot;Connect Four&quot; properly uses an 9 x 9 board, instead of a 3 x 3 board, allowing for the use of strategy.

There is an art to designing games where it is fun to lose.  The loser has to lose quickly, at least once they have no chance of losing, and not feel as if the deck has been stacked against him or her.  Its very important if you lose to think that your own decisions played a part in it.  This is also probably important with larger issues of social justice.

A recent issue of the New Yorker had an excellent article on board games, for example informing their readers of the deep religious origins of &quot;Snakes and Ladders&quot; (no, I&#039;m not making this up).  Its well worth looking up, if you have any interest in games.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Try playing &#8220;Connect Four&#8221; instead of &#8220;Tic Tac Toe&#8221;.  The two games are mostly the same, but &#8220;Connect Four&#8221; properly uses an 9&#215;9 board, instead of a 3&#215;3 board, allowing for the use of strategy.</p>

	<p>There is an art to designing games where it is fun to lose.  The loser has to lose quickly, at least once they have no chance of losing, and not feel as if the deck has been stacked against him or her.  Its very important if you lose to think that your own decisions played a part in it.  This is also probably important with larger issues of social justice.</p>

	<p>A recent issue of the New Yorker had an excellent article on board games, for example informing their readers of the deep religious origins of &#8220;Snakes and Ladders&#8221; (no, I&#8217;m not making this up).  Its well worth looking up, if you have any interest in games.</p>
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		<title>By: vivian</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/comment-page-1/#comment-196935</link>
		<dc:creator>vivian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 May 2007 00:28:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/#comment-196935</guid>
		<description>My just-6 yr old is learning to tolerate not always winning, because the fun of some tricky moves is like a mini-victory. He only plays tic-tac-toe with adults if he hides the board (from us), and we have to describe each square we choose, and take his word for it that he drew it correctly. 

The kindergarten teacher says that all the kids arrive in the morning, and try to surreptitiously stack the deck for candyland, and then try to maneuver people into playng it. Adults are under strict orders to always shuffle the cards first. 

Some social skills seem to come easier than others. John, since Zoe seems way out in front on this, encourage her to rewrite the rules to make it more fun. The urge to win/cheat, coopted, can be a good motivator.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>My just-6 yr old is learning to tolerate not always winning, because the fun of some tricky moves is like a mini-victory. He only plays tic-tac-toe with adults if he hides the board (from us), and we have to describe each square we choose, and take his word for it that he drew it correctly.</p>

	<p>The kindergarten teacher says that all the kids arrive in the morning, and try to surreptitiously stack the deck for candyland, and then try to maneuver people into playng it. Adults are under strict orders to always shuffle the cards first.</p>

	<p>Some social skills seem to come easier than others. John, since Zoe seems way out in front on this, encourage her to rewrite the rules to make it more fun. The urge to win/cheat, coopted, can be a good motivator.</p>
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		<title>By: bemused</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/comment-page-1/#comment-196933</link>
		<dc:creator>bemused</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 May 2007 23:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/#comment-196933</guid>
		<description>In my experience kids begin to be &quot;good losers&quot; as they enter school and have more opportunities to play board and card games with their peers.  They learn that noone wants to play with a sore loser, and develop the ability to keep their disappointment to themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In my experience kids begin to be &#8220;good losers&#8221; as they enter school and have more opportunities to play board and card games with their peers.  They learn that noone wants to play with a sore loser, and develop the ability to keep their disappointment to themselves.</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/comment-page-1/#comment-196926</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 May 2007 22:21:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/17/justice-as-fun-ness/#comment-196926</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;There is one game in particular that I will never play and regret buying because the winning strategy for one side is to play in such a way that the other side doesn’t have fun.&lt;/i&gt;

If that game is Puerto Rico, as you link to, is the strategy to deliberately mess up the ships (by loading a single coffee/whatever the brown good is per turn into the largest ships whenever possible), and use factory (and similar buildings) to get down lots of buildings and finish the game really fast by filling all 12 squares?

If so thats the tactics I found that caused us to stop playing the game almost entirely...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>There is one game in particular that I will never play and regret buying because the winning strategy for one side is to play in such a way that the other side doesn&#8217;t have fun.</i></p>

	<p>If that game is Puerto Rico, as you link to, is the strategy to deliberately mess up the ships (by loading a single coffee/whatever the brown good is per turn into the largest ships whenever possible), and use factory (and similar buildings) to get down lots of buildings and finish the game really fast by filling all 12 squares?</p>

	<p>If so thats the tactics I found that caused us to stop playing the game almost entirely&#8230;</p>
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