Comments on: The second reliberation of Iraq http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Mon, 13 Feb 2012 09:04:17 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Barry http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-201623 Barry Sat, 23 Jun 2007 04:14:57 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/#comment-201623 My major point, joel, is that anything that the generals say in support of the administration is lies until proven otherwise. Any general who is in high enough position that the Bush administration had to select him is just as corrupt as any civilian Bush appointee. We're seen that proven with Petraeus's recent BS (i.e., the 9-10 years of the N. Irish guerilla war, the 're-liberation' of Iraq). As for 'secret push-back', I'll file that with the idea that the Bush administration is actually doing a good job, based on secret information that only they know. My major point, joel, is that anything that the generals say in support of the administration is lies until proven otherwise. Any general who is in high enough position that the Bush administration had to select him is just as corrupt as any civilian Bush appointee.

We’re seen that proven with Petraeus’s recent BS (i.e., the 9-10 years of the N. Irish guerilla war, the ‘re-liberation’ of Iraq).

As for ‘secret push-back’, I’ll file that with the idea that the Bush administration is actually doing a good job, based on secret information that only they know.

]]> By: Jonathan Edelstein http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-201622 Jonathan Edelstein Sat, 23 Jun 2007 03:49:11 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/#comment-201622 Grab clusters, brother, and mind the giant rabbits. Grab clusters, brother, and mind the giant rabbits.

]]> By: joel turnipseed http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-201612 joel turnipseed Sat, 23 Jun 2007 00:40:38 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/#comment-201612 Barry, Surely, these guys are <em>not</em> the Smedley Butler or David Shoup I'd like to see (or even: Anthony Zinni). And yes, Pace's performance has left a lot to be desired (the Rumsfeld remark was particularly bad--though Pace has also put up some between the lines public resistance, too). Nevertheless, we're still happily in possession of a military that defers to the civilian government & <em>that's</em> where the ire should really be directed, no? And honestly, we just <em>don't</em> know the full story of whether and how and what kinds of resistance the general ranks have put up (not, certainly, <em>enough</em>). Anyway, no need to derail the thread--if the Tenn is as good as the Alfred Bester I was turned onto last winter, I just may become a sci-fi fan yet. Barry,

Surely, these guys are not the Smedley Butler or David Shoup I’d like to see (or even: Anthony Zinni). And yes, Pace’s performance has left a lot to be desired (the Rumsfeld remark was particularly bad—though Pace has also put up some between the lines public resistance, too).

Nevertheless, we’re still happily in possession of a military that defers to the civilian government & that’s where the ire should really be directed, no? And honestly, we just don’t know the full story of whether and how and what kinds of resistance the general ranks have put up (not, certainly, enough).

Anyway, no need to derail the thread—if the Tenn is as good as the Alfred Bester I was turned onto last winter, I just may become a sci-fi fan yet.

]]> By: Barry http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-201578 Barry Fri, 22 Jun 2007 15:49:29 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/#comment-201578 joel, nobody made those guys sign up for the positions that they had. They're generals; they have enough time in to retire. By the time that Petraeus took the job, Bush's character was quite clear, as well as the sheer impossibility of the job. In Pace's case, of course, the man was a wh*re, pure and simple. Anybody who says that 'Rumsfeld is doing the Good Lord's work' gets no sympathy from me. joel, nobody made those guys sign up for the positions that they had. They’re generals; they have enough time in to retire. By the time that Petraeus took the job, Bush’s character was quite clear, as well as the sheer impossibility of the job.

In Pace’s case, of course, the man was a wh*re, pure and simple. Anybody who says that ‘Rumsfeld is doing the Good Lord’s work’ gets no sympathy from me.

]]> By: Ken Houghton http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-201568 Ken Houghton Fri, 22 Jun 2007 15:20:27 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/#comment-201568 "William Tenn" is still alive, just fyi. “William Tenn” is still alive, just fyi.

]]> By: joel turnipseed http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-201566 joel turnipseed Fri, 22 Jun 2007 15:11:50 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/#comment-201566 Too bad Petraeus can't have the Marines out singing songs with the Iraqi's... one I fondly recall singing myself went like this: F-U-C, See--I told you they'd go an do it K-E-D, 'D' for real deep, my brothers A-G-A-I-N Insert ex tempore lyrics set to Mickey Mouse Club Song for general fucking of the day. It's too bad, really, that guys like Pace and Petraeus and many of the other brass are themselves getting bent over by the BushCo. As for Tenn: wow, that's definitely something I've got to pick up. Thx for the rec. Too bad Petraeus can’t have the Marines out singing songs with the Iraqi’s… one I fondly recall singing myself went like this:

F-U-C, See—I told you they’d go an do it
K-E-D, ‘D’ for real deep, my brothers
A-G-A-I-N

Insert ex tempore lyrics set to Mickey Mouse Club Song for general fucking of the day.

It’s too bad, really, that guys like Pace and Petraeus and many of the other brass are themselves getting bent over by the BushCo.

As for Tenn: wow, that’s definitely something I’ve got to pick up. Thx for the rec.

]]> By: Randolph Fritz http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-201563 Randolph Fritz Fri, 22 Jun 2007 14:43:09 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/#comment-201563 Edis, I believe the story you are referring to is Arthur C. Clarke's, <i>Superiority</i>. Edis, I believe the story you are referring to is Arthur C. Clarke’s, Superiority.

]]> By: Shelley Belsky http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-201560 Shelley Belsky Fri, 22 Jun 2007 14:28:17 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/#comment-201560 Henry Kuttner wrote the best analysis of our involvement around the world (and specificly in the middle east. It was a piece called "Or Else" or as I call it, "Political Science and Imperialism 101" Henry Kuttner wrote the best analysis of our involvement around the world (and specificly in the middle east.
It was a piece called “Or Else” or as I call it, “Political Science and Imperialism 101”

]]> By: Edis http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-201554 Edis Fri, 22 Jun 2007 13:37:50 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/#comment-201554 Read this way back in the 1960's and it stuck powerfully in my mind. Thanks for the author's name. Now I can look up other things of his. A hatfull of lendi for you! Now who wrote the story about the US being defeated in a war against some bush power because the US weapons were to complex to use? Read this way back in the 1960’s and it stuck powerfully in my mind. Thanks for the author’s name. Now I can look up other things of his. A hatfull of lendi for you!

Now who wrote the story about the US being defeated in a war against some bush power because the US weapons were to complex to use?

]]> By: Chris Williams http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-201552 Chris Williams Fri, 22 Jun 2007 13:29:00 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/#comment-201552 Suck air! Suck air! Suck air! Suck air!

]]> By: Cheryl http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-201550 Cheryl Fri, 22 Jun 2007 13:07:55 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/#comment-201550 You can buy the story in the collection <i>Immodest Proposals</i> from <a href="http://www.nesfa.org/press/" rel="nofollow">NESFA Press</a> And if you also buy the companion volume, <i>Here Comes Civilization</i>, you will have all of Tenn's science fiction stories. You can buy the story in the collection Immodest Proposals from NESFA Press And if you also buy the companion volume, Here Comes Civilization, you will have all of Tenn’s science fiction stories.

]]> By: chris y http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-201548 chris y Fri, 22 Jun 2007 13:06:07 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/#comment-201548 Tenn was a genius. His "Null-P" should be the subject of a written exam for anyone presuming to run for office anywhere. Tenn was a genius. His “Null-P” should be the subject of a written exam for anyone presuming to run for office anywhere.

]]> By: Charlie Murtaugh http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-201547 Charlie Murtaugh Fri, 22 Jun 2007 12:53:02 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/#comment-201547 I really loved this story when I read it, as a teenager in the mid-'80s -- I read it in a big anthology of various sci-fi stories, and didn't know the year it was published, so I assumed it was a Vietnam allegory. It's amazing how well the satire holds up, and chilling to think about how long it has been relevant -- long before Vietnam and even longer after. I really loved this story when I read it, as a teenager in the mid-’80s—I read it in a big anthology of various sci-fi stories, and didn’t know the year it was published, so I assumed it was a Vietnam allegory. It’s amazing how well the satire holds up, and chilling to think about how long it has been relevant—long before Vietnam and even longer after.

]]> By: ejh http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-201545 ejh Fri, 22 Jun 2007 12:41:02 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/#comment-201545 It's a marvellous story and it can be read in a collection called <a href="http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/s/james-sallis/war-book.htm" rel="nofollow">The War Book</a> edited by James Sallis which is out of print but available (one assumes) via various book-purchase websites. It’s a marvellous story and it can be read in a collection called The War Book edited by James Sallis which is out of print but available (one assumes) via various book-purchase websites.

]]> By: Hidari http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-201541 Hidari Fri, 22 Jun 2007 12:10:09 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/22/the-second-reliberation-of-iraq/#comment-201541 I'm a SF geek: why have I never heard of this guy? 'Visualize our ancestors scurrying about their primitive intricacies: playing ice-hockey, televising, smashing atoms, red-baiting, conducting giveaway shows, and signing affidavits -- all the incredible minutiae that made the olden times such a frightful mass of cumulative detail in which to live -- as compared with the breathless and majestic simplicity of the present'. That last phrase really has Swiftian echoes: it would seem to work not just with our current 'liberation' of previously 'intricate' civilisations, but with any 'liberation' (invasion, revolution, whatever) anywhere. I’m a SF geek: why have I never heard of this guy?

‘Visualize our ancestors scurrying about their primitive intricacies: playing ice-hockey, televising, smashing atoms, red-baiting, conducting giveaway shows, and signing affidavits—all the incredible minutiae that made the olden times such a frightful mass of cumulative detail in which to live—as compared with the breathless and majestic simplicity of the present’.

That last phrase really has Swiftian echoes: it would seem to work not just with our current ‘liberation’ of previously ‘intricate’ civilisations, but with any ‘liberation’ (invasion, revolution, whatever) anywhere.

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