Comments on: The crisis in Australian indigenous communities http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sun, 27 May 2012 05:54:54 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: SG http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/comment-page-1/#comment-201914 SG Tue, 26 Jun 2007 09:04:22 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/#comment-201914 Discussion of employment for Indigenous people when they don't have access to housing, running water, medical care or decent transport is just stupid. There is no business on earth that can function in many of these remote communities, and if Aboriginal people in the outback were paid wages which industry could afford in the circumstances, they would be paid tobacco and sugar (which is how they were paid during earlier years). Those of you who don't live in Australia need to understand - most of these communities are several hours' drive on unsealed roads from tiny towns, which themselves straddle a road linking a town of 300,000 people to a town of a million people on a 24 hour journey through nowhere. Instead of thinking of these communities as the "rural fringe" they need to be thought of more as camps for displaced persons. They are Australia's internally displaced by genocidal design, and their conditions today match that situation. They live in overcrowded houses or humpies, often without sewage or running water, suffering diseases of overcrowding (like glue ear) which have been eliminated in the rest of Australia. Some of these places have so few decent homes that people are living a family a room, and the "communities" themselves have a large transient population. Everyone knows that these kinds of situations breed child abuse, violence and drug dependence; the environment needs to be repaired before interventions can be successful. The Herald pointed out in an article yesterday that when the "much-needed" police turn up to these communities they will have to camp by the river beds and cook over fires because <i>there is no accomodation</i>. Where will they hold people they arrest, living 6 or 8 hours' drive from the nearest police station? The same Herald article also pointed out that an estimated 1.4 billion dollars is needed to provide sufficient housing to reduce overcrowding. Howard has had 11 years to provide that money as part of his much-vaunted "practical reconciliation" program. Why now? The reason for "why now", and the reason that this response is going to do more harm than good, is that it has nothing to do with Aboriginal kiddies. Howard has blown his dog whistle. Recently the tory working class who voted him in in 2001 have returned to the labour opposition. Howard wants to remind them that it is him, and only him, who speaks their hidden racist language. His response to this "emergency" is couched in the doublespeak of dog whistle politics. When Howard speaks this way, it is not because he believes the "tough love" politics of Noel Pearson - he doesn't, because Noel Pearson is black and therefore hated - but because contained in it is the hidden message to the racist Aussie horde. He is reminding them that labour is the party of "special interests" and self-determination, which they hate, and he will destroy it. To analyse his response as if it has any value is to fall for his trap. Argue on his terms, and the racist underclass will be more strongly reminded that only Howard can "protect" them from the "privileged" Aborigine, so long given "special treatment" by "do-gooders" instead of being treated how the urban fringe wants - ignored, abandoned and preferably eliminated, or at best assimilated. This response will do more harm for Aboriginal people than good. It is the concentration camp trap. Take decent people, take away their rights and their ability to look after themselves, and then when they turn into savages say "see, they can't be treated the same as us, they're savages." This is how the "rural fringe" views Aborigines, and John Howard wants to blame the Aborigines for the savagery which we witness. No response based on this will do anything but hasten their descent. And in fact unless John Howard is blowing his dog whistle, he never has anything to say about Aboriginal issues - to him and his kind they don't and shouldn't exist. Discussion of employment for Indigenous people when they don’t have access to housing, running water, medical care or decent transport is just stupid. There is no business on earth that can function in many of these remote communities, and if Aboriginal people in the outback were paid wages which industry could afford in the circumstances, they would be paid tobacco and sugar (which is how they were paid during earlier years). Those of you who don’t live in Australia need to understand – most of these communities are several hours’ drive on unsealed roads from tiny towns, which themselves straddle a road linking a town of 300,000 people to a town of a million people on a 24 hour journey through nowhere.

Instead of thinking of these communities as the “rural fringe” they need to be thought of more as camps for displaced persons. They are Australia’s internally displaced by genocidal design, and their conditions today match that situation. They live in overcrowded houses or humpies, often without sewage or running water, suffering diseases of overcrowding (like glue ear) which have been eliminated in the rest of Australia. Some of these places have so few decent homes that people are living a family a room, and the “communities” themselves have a large transient population. Everyone knows that these kinds of situations breed child abuse, violence and drug dependence; the environment needs to be repaired before interventions can be successful. The Herald pointed out in an article yesterday that when the “much-needed” police turn up to these communities they will have to camp by the river beds and cook over fires because there is no accomodation. Where will they hold people they arrest, living 6 or 8 hours’ drive from the nearest police station? The same Herald article also pointed out that an estimated 1.4 billion dollars is needed to provide sufficient housing to reduce overcrowding. Howard has had 11 years to provide that money as part of his much-vaunted “practical reconciliation” program. Why now?

The reason for “why now”, and the reason that this response is going to do more harm than good, is that it has nothing to do with Aboriginal kiddies. Howard has blown his dog whistle. Recently the tory working class who voted him in in 2001 have returned to the labour opposition. Howard wants to remind them that it is him, and only him, who speaks their hidden racist language. His response to this “emergency” is couched in the doublespeak of dog whistle politics. When Howard speaks this way, it is not because he believes the “tough love” politics of Noel Pearson – he doesn’t, because Noel Pearson is black and therefore hated – but because contained in it is the hidden message to the racist Aussie horde. He is reminding them that labour is the party of “special interests” and self-determination, which they hate, and he will destroy it. To analyse his response as if it has any value is to fall for his trap. Argue on his terms, and the racist underclass will be more strongly reminded that only Howard can “protect” them from the “privileged” Aborigine, so long given “special treatment” by “do-gooders” instead of being treated how the urban fringe wants – ignored, abandoned and preferably eliminated, or at best assimilated.

This response will do more harm for Aboriginal people than good. It is the concentration camp trap. Take decent people, take away their rights and their ability to look after themselves, and then when they turn into savages say “see, they can’t be treated the same as us, they’re savages.” This is how the “rural fringe” views Aborigines, and John Howard wants to blame the Aborigines for the savagery which we witness. No response based on this will do anything but hasten their descent. And in fact unless John Howard is blowing his dog whistle, he never has anything to say about Aboriginal issues – to him and his kind they don’t and shouldn’t exist.

]]> By: roy belmont http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/comment-page-1/#comment-201901 roy belmont Tue, 26 Jun 2007 03:54:35 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/#comment-201901 The "argument for alcohol" is it gets you through the immediate weight of unbearable living. Thus "water of life". Thus "whiskey" or "usquebaugh" and "aquavit". The difficulty is it diverts, or can and often does, outrage and rebellion, and allows the dominating culture its slow triumphs. Thus removing it as immediate outlet for rage and self-harming futility as effective solutions. But when Noel Pearson says in the cite by o.schwarz: <i>Our culture of reciprocity had been a source of strength during the lean and mean times of discrimination, but in the passive welfare era...</i> the tacit goal is non-discriminatory assimilation. The difference between discrimination against a culture and discrimination of members of a culture is subtle for a time. Thus the "Puritan" accusation. Because what's behind that Mrs. Grundy b.s. is good little wogs putting on their skirts and suits and ties and trooping off through through the morning mist to work. Alcohol isn't the problem there, as it often isn't in a lot of people's lives who come up against that facile diagnosis. Getting the indigenes good jobs gives them as well a complicity in the predation against what they really are and still could be. And it's a complicity with something that increasingly proves itself to be unworthy of any cooperation whatsoever, even as it runs the world and places most of us squarely in the midst of the dilemma of survive by compromise with it, or face extinction of one kind or another. The “argument for alcohol” is it gets you through the immediate weight of unbearable living. Thus “water of life”. Thus “whiskey” or “usquebaugh” and “aquavit”.
The difficulty is it diverts, or can and often does, outrage and rebellion, and allows the dominating culture its slow triumphs. Thus removing it as immediate outlet for rage and self-harming futility as effective solutions.
But when Noel Pearson says in the cite by o.schwarz:
Our culture of reciprocity had been a source of strength during the lean and mean times of discrimination, but in the passive welfare era…
the tacit goal is non-discriminatory assimilation. The difference between discrimination against a culture and discrimination of members of a culture is subtle for a time.
Thus the “Puritan” accusation. Because what’s behind that Mrs. Grundy b.s. is good little wogs putting on their skirts and suits and ties and trooping off through through the morning mist to work.
Alcohol isn’t the problem there, as it often isn’t in a lot of people’s lives who come up against that facile diagnosis. Getting the indigenes good jobs gives them as well a complicity in the predation against what they really are and still could be. And it’s a complicity with something that increasingly proves itself to be unworthy of any cooperation whatsoever, even as it runs the world and places most of us squarely in the midst of the dilemma of survive by compromise with it, or face extinction of one kind or another.

]]> By: Tracy W http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/comment-page-1/#comment-201885 Tracy W Mon, 25 Jun 2007 21:50:34 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/#comment-201885 <i>I’m not arguing for any such thing, but actually asking you how your theory includes and justifies the pornography ban. </i> I don't think my theory includes or justifies the pornography ban. I was merely commenting on alcoholism. <i>If alchoholism is something such groups haven’t evolved a tolerance to, than is that the justification also for the porn ban?</i> I don't know. I don't know of any evidence that the consumption of pornography in extreme amounts is correlated with a family genetic history of consumption of pornography in extreme amounts. Nor do I know of any evidence that it doesn't. Plus, as I said before, I am skeptical about how effective any alcohol ban would be in practice, given US experience of their Prohibition. <i>Look, my point about misusing evolutionary theory is not whether a genetic predisposition can be found, it is that it has dangerous consequences for public policy and tends to get used as a posteriori explanations and defenses for policies that derive from entirely different bases.</i> Can you name a scientific theory that has policy implications that has't been misused? People make bad arguments for policy all the time. And there's pretty much always two reasons people have for advocating a policy - the reason they state and their actual reason. There's nothing special about misuse of evolutionary theory. I’m not arguing for any such thing, but actually asking you how your theory includes and justifies the pornography ban.

I don’t think my theory includes or justifies the pornography ban. I was merely commenting on alcoholism.

If alchoholism is something such groups haven’t evolved a tolerance to, than is that the justification also for the porn ban?

I don’t know. I don’t know of any evidence that the consumption of pornography in extreme amounts is correlated with a family genetic history of consumption of pornography in extreme amounts. Nor do I know of any evidence that it doesn’t.

Plus, as I said before, I am skeptical about how effective any alcohol ban would be in practice, given US experience of their Prohibition.

Look, my point about misusing evolutionary theory is not whether a genetic predisposition can be found, it is that it has dangerous consequences for public policy and tends to get used as a posteriori explanations and defenses for policies that derive from entirely different bases.

Can you name a scientific theory that has policy implications that has’t been misused?

People make bad arguments for policy all the time. And there’s pretty much always two reasons people have for advocating a policy – the reason they state and their actual reason. There’s nothing special about misuse of evolutionary theory.

]]> By: Carlos http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/comment-page-1/#comment-201874 Carlos Mon, 25 Jun 2007 19:23:42 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/#comment-201874 We need a bit more context in this discussion: hoWARd's arrogant, paternalistic and racist plans are more about "political show" and electioneering" only months before an election - <strong>even recalling parliament</strong> from the winter break to create more hype and tv coverage - than any long term change. Nor are we using an evidence based approach to achieve real solutions rather than simply masking symptoms without even dealing with their deeper causes. After 11 years, the hoWARd government having done nothing but vilify and blame Aboriginal people themselves for their problems - using clearly racist attacks such as Pauline Hanson's - now and only now, months out from an election is willing to send in <strong>the army</strong>, extra police from other states, and extra federal police... funded for... wait for it.... with funding for <strong>a whole 6 months!</strong> After <strike>years</strike> decades of local groups and reports calling for significant improvements in Aboriginal health and education funding, crisis-prevention, this is now such a crisis that 6 months worth of dough should do it! No other funding nor other details have been specified, not even for the very basic health and education programs that are indeed required. Many of such programs, especially the locally developed ones with community involvement, have constantly struggled to attract any funding from either states or federal sources, even if proven and successful. Next: hoWARd wants to <strong>force</strong> extensive medical examinations for <strong>all children</strong>, to ascertain if they have any "STDs" or have been victims to abuse. No bloody idea about the trauma that this policy can of itself create?! Even worsening the cases of those that have indeed been affected already... This bit is a massive can of worms, even for the nursing and medical practitioners involved and their own ethics! Would hoWARd or any other politician be willing to carry out such a extreme and radical interventionist act in a white suburban population with any similar problems? Now, as far as the alcohol and pornographic material is concerned, the hoWARd government has refused to restrict take-away sales of these in the major towns that are the very source of an extensive distribution network (some even hundreds of kilometers away), since it would affect some very large supermarket chains and retailers, as well as the wider white population. I guess some sacred cows are more sacred than others. Especially if they happen to be white sacred cows. Of course, there is a huge and well documented "trade" of such problematic materials, like drugs, alcohol, and petrol (also used as a drug for sniffing). This illegal "trade" of grog for sex and worse, may even involve inter-state boundaries, <strong>white men</strong>, miners, truckies, farmers and even the police. At least <strong>60% of all Australian mines are surrounded by Aboriginal communities.</strong> Hence hoWARd will meet and coordinate this whole intervention with the Minerals Council [ http://www.minerals.org.au ] and other industry lobby groups. Yet not even a minister, let alone hoWARd himself have meet with the affected communities. Importantly, hoWARd is only picking on the Northern Territory including a greedy Native Title <strong>land grab</strong> simply because he can, due to our Constitution: Federal legislation overriding the Territorian legislative assembly. Hence the recent previous Federal Government decision to base uranium waste storage sites in the Northern Territory in defense force land and in Aboriginal land. Meanwhile the states have decidedly opposed any such moves, with South Australia even legislating to ensure any similar moves by the Federal government would automatically trigger a plebiscite. This is more about having a <strong>new wedge issue</strong>, to divide the ALP and to paint hoWARd's government as the "saviour of poor abused Aboriginal children" just 4-5 months before an election. If it also delivers more uranium mines, waste depots and a greedy federal land grab, all the better. [Now there's also the new Adelaide to Darwin railway, 20% controlled by a subsidiary of Halliburton Australia:"..from the USA, Mr.David J. Lesar, Chairman of the Board, President and Chief Executive Officer of Halliburton addresses the large crowd. Adelaide, Jan 15th, 2004" [ http://www.touradelaide.com/adelaide_news/adelaide_darwin_first_train.html http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Halliburton_Australia ] One of the few Aboriginal leaders that have been consulted, is Noel Pearson, perhaps the most hardcore pro-capitalist pro-intervention Aboriginal figure head. [http://www.thewest.com.au/aapstory.aspx?StoryName=393038] At best he is being very naive and paternalistic, aligning himself with a government whose ideology that has helped fund Pearson's Cape York Institute through grants and programs. At worse he is being a tool of division for a racist government 4 months before an election. Or simply a tool. Another prominent Aboriginal leader involved is the hoWARd appointed Chairwoman of the National Indigenous Council (2004), the West Australian Children's Court Magistrate, Sue Gordon. Understandably her focus and priority is the protection of children, and her approach is also highly interventionist. [ http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2007/s1959824.htm AM - Co-architect defends Indigenous plan ] What's key to the electoral effect of this hoWARd "emergency" is our reaction in Australia and the more critical analysis that he's already being subjected to. Most important of all is what the wide range of Aboriginal voices have to tell us, what the very communities have to decide and live with, so let's be humble and listen to the Aboriginal people! We might even learn something! As far as the ALP is concerned, it just sits in the fence doing little, scared to piss-off some imagined marginal seat voters. Do not make this another TAMPA! Let's take a solid coherent stand to protect abused children and improve community outcomes. This starts by funding proven successful local programs that involve the very communities affected and <strong>empower</strong> them to improve their own education, health and justice. And not by shoving in arrogant, paternalistic and racist plans without any care or understanding. Let's call a spade a bloody shovel: hoWARd has a tract record for arrogant greedy lies and 11 years of inaction and racist neglect towards Aboriginal people. Using and abusing our indigenous brothers and sisters is what most governments do, not just in Australia but world-wide. Coming from someone like hoWARd, with such a well known racist and manipulative track record, this is simply more of the same. More Info: Are Aborigines Howard's Tampa 2? - Margo Kingston on June 22, 2007 5:11pm. http://webdiary.com.au/cms/?q=node/1926 Howard's Aboriginal plan 'racist' http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,2195675-2,00.html Greens challenge Howard's neglect on grog, sex abuse - 22nd Jun 07 http://www.rachelsiewert.org.au/600_media_sub.php?deptItemID=343 30 years of reports into Aboriginal Australia - Friday, 22 June 2007 http://www.crikey.com.au/Politics/20070622-30-years-of-reports-into-Aboriginal-Australia.html Another tricky Howard ruse - Gregory Phillips. June 23, 2007 http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/another-tricky-howard-ruse/2007/06/22/1182019361459.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1 Greg Barns: There goes the rule of law - Thursday, 21 June 2007 http://www.crikey.com.au/Politics/20070621-There-goes-the-rule-of-law.html We need a bit more context in this discussion:

hoWARd’s arrogant, paternalistic and racist plans are more about “political show” and electioneering” only months before an election – even recalling parliament from the winter break to create more hype and tv coverage – than any long term change. Nor are we using an evidence based approach to achieve real solutions rather than simply masking symptoms without even dealing with their deeper causes.

After 11 years, the hoWARd government having done nothing but vilify and blame Aboriginal people themselves for their problems – using clearly racist attacks such as Pauline Hanson’s – now and only now, months out from an election is willing to send in the army, extra police from other states, and extra federal police… funded for… wait for it…. with funding for a whole 6 months!

After years decades of local groups and reports calling for significant improvements in Aboriginal health and education funding, crisis-prevention, this is now such a crisis that 6 months worth of dough should do it!

No other funding nor other details have been specified, not even for the very basic health and education programs that are indeed required. Many of such programs, especially the locally developed ones with community involvement, have constantly struggled to attract any funding from either states or federal sources, even if proven and successful.

Next: hoWARd wants to force extensive medical examinations for all children, to ascertain if they have any “STDs” or have been victims to abuse.

No bloody idea about the trauma that this policy can of itself create?! Even worsening the cases of those that have indeed been affected already… This bit is a massive can of worms, even for the nursing and medical practitioners involved and their own ethics!

Would hoWARd or any other politician be willing to carry out such a extreme and radical interventionist act in a white suburban population with any similar problems?

Now, as far as the alcohol and pornographic material is concerned, the hoWARd government has refused to restrict take-away sales of these in the major towns that are the very source of an extensive distribution network (some even hundreds of kilometers away), since it would affect some very large supermarket chains and retailers, as well as the wider white population.

I guess some sacred cows are more sacred than others. Especially if they happen to be white sacred cows.

Of course, there is a huge and well documented “trade” of such problematic materials, like drugs, alcohol, and petrol (also used as a drug for sniffing). This illegal “trade” of grog for sex and worse, may even involve inter-state boundaries, white men, miners, truckies, farmers and even the police.

At least 60% of all Australian mines are surrounded by Aboriginal communities.
Hence hoWARd will meet and coordinate this whole intervention with the Minerals Council [ http://www.minerals.org.au ] and other industry lobby groups. Yet not even a minister, let alone hoWARd himself have meet with the affected communities.

Importantly, hoWARd is only picking on the Northern Territory including a greedy Native Title land grab simply because he can, due to our Constitution: Federal legislation overriding the Territorian legislative assembly. Hence the recent previous Federal Government decision to base uranium waste storage sites in the Northern Territory in defense force land and in Aboriginal land.

Meanwhile the states have decidedly opposed any such moves, with South Australia even legislating to ensure any similar moves by the Federal government would automatically trigger a plebiscite.

This is more about having a new wedge issue, to divide the ALP and to paint hoWARd’s government as the “saviour of poor abused Aboriginal children” just 4-5 months before an election.

If it also delivers more uranium mines, waste depots and a greedy federal land grab, all the better. [Now there’s also the new Adelaide to Darwin railway, 20% controlled by a subsidiary of Halliburton Australia:”..from the USA, Mr.David J. Lesar, Chairman of the Board, President and Chief Executive Officer of Halliburton addresses the large crowd. Adelaide, Jan 15th, 2004” [ http://www.touradelaide.com/adelaide_news/adelaide_darwin_first_train.html http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Halliburton_Australia ]

One of the few Aboriginal leaders that have been consulted, is Noel Pearson, perhaps the most hardcore pro-capitalist pro-intervention Aboriginal figure head. [http://www.thewest.com.au/aapstory.aspx?StoryName=393038]

At best he is being very naive and paternalistic, aligning himself with a government whose ideology that has helped fund Pearson’s Cape York Institute through grants and programs. At worse he is being a tool of division for a racist government 4 months before an election. Or simply a tool.

Another prominent Aboriginal leader involved is the hoWARd appointed Chairwoman of the National Indigenous Council (2004), the West Australian Children’s Court Magistrate, Sue Gordon. Understandably her focus and priority is the protection of children, and her approach is also highly interventionist. [ http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2007/s1959824.htm AM - Co-architect defends Indigenous plan ]

What’s key to the electoral effect of this hoWARd “emergency” is our reaction in Australia and the more critical analysis that he’s already being subjected to. Most important of all is what the wide range of Aboriginal voices have to tell us, what the very communities have to decide and live with, so let’s be humble and listen to the Aboriginal people! We might even learn something!

As far as the ALP is concerned, it just sits in the fence doing little, scared to piss-off some imagined marginal seat voters. Do not make this another TAMPA!

Let’s take a solid coherent stand to protect abused children and improve community outcomes. This starts by funding proven successful local programs that involve the very communities affected and empower them to improve their own education, health and justice. And not by shoving in arrogant, paternalistic and racist plans without any care or understanding.

Let’s call a spade a bloody shovel: hoWARd has a tract record for arrogant greedy lies and 11 years of inaction and racist neglect towards Aboriginal people.

Using and abusing our indigenous brothers and sisters is what most governments do, not just in Australia but world-wide.

Coming from someone like hoWARd, with such a well known racist and manipulative track record, this is simply more of the same.

More Info:

Are Aborigines Howard’s Tampa 2? – Margo Kingston on June 22, 2007 5:11pm.
http://webdiary.com.au/cms/?q=node/1926

Howard’s Aboriginal plan ‘racist’
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,2195675-2,00.html

Greens challenge Howard’s neglect on grog, sex abuse – 22nd Jun 07
http://www.rachelsiewert.org.au/600_media_sub.php?deptItemID=343

30 years of reports into Aboriginal Australia – Friday, 22 June 2007
http://www.crikey.com.au/Politics/20070622-30-years-of-reports-into-Aboriginal-Australia.html

Another tricky Howard ruse – Gregory Phillips. June 23, 2007
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/another-tricky-howard-ruse/2007/06/22/1182019361459.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1

Greg Barns: There goes the rule of law – Thursday, 21 June 2007
http://www.crikey.com.au/Politics/20070621-There-goes-the-rule-of-law.html

]]> By: Omri Schwarz http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/comment-page-1/#comment-201867 Omri Schwarz Mon, 25 Jun 2007 18:05:53 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/#comment-201867 This thread would probably be more useful if folks went and read what Aborigine activist Noel Pearson has to say about this. <a href="http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/printpage/0,5942,21715025,00.html" rel="nofollow">Here's a good start.</a> This thread would probably be more useful if folks went and read what Aborigine activist Noel Pearson has to say about this. Here’s a good start.

]]> By: H. E. Baber http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/comment-page-1/#comment-201862 H. E. Baber Mon, 25 Jun 2007 16:57:21 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/#comment-201862 Real question, not entirely rhetorical: do they really want to live out in the backside of beyond--with or without "sacred sites" and traditional culture? Isn't it possible that lots would rather the lives of middle-class Australians in cities and suburbs if that were feasible? People in outlying rural areas where there were no opportunities, where life was dull and poor, have always flooded to cities. Serfs escaped the manor to make their way in the towns, villages emptied out during the industrial revolution, etc. These people had no interest in preserving, or recreating, a traditional way of life--they wanted a better life. Why assume that indigenous peoples want anything different? Real question, not entirely rhetorical: do they really want to live out in the backside of beyond—with or without “sacred sites” and traditional culture? Isn’t it possible that lots would rather the lives of middle-class Australians in cities and suburbs if that were feasible?

People in outlying rural areas where there were no opportunities, where life was dull and poor, have always flooded to cities. Serfs escaped the manor to make their way in the towns, villages emptied out during the industrial revolution, etc. These people had no interest in preserving, or recreating, a traditional way of life—they wanted a better life. Why assume that indigenous peoples want anything different?

]]> By: Michael D http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/comment-page-1/#comment-201835 Michael D Mon, 25 Jun 2007 13:05:00 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/#comment-201835 BW: where would such govt jobs be predominately located? wouldn't they need to be in the cities? or do you think there would perhaps education/health opportunities in the more remote communities? say for example (pulling out of a hat here...) providing training for locals to become nurses and conduct the medical exams howard's now forced on every kid? and re: "what is drinking a poor substitute for" - (no expert here) but perhaps a loss of sacred sites and traditional land, younger generations lack of education/awareness in traditional ways, fundamental breakdown in communities through white man's presence and 'good intentions' (stolen children), and perhaps a general feeling that no one really cares all that much about your histories.... BW: where would such govt jobs be predominately located? wouldn’t they need to be in the cities? or do you think there would perhaps education/health opportunities in the more remote communities? say for example (pulling out of a hat here…) providing training for locals to become nurses and conduct the medical exams howard’s now forced on every kid?

and re: “what is drinking a poor substitute for” – (no expert here) but perhaps a loss of sacred sites and traditional land, younger generations lack of education/awareness in traditional ways, fundamental breakdown in communities through white man’s presence and ‘good intentions’ (stolen children), and perhaps a general feeling that no one really cares all that much about your histories….

]]> By: ajay http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/comment-page-1/#comment-201812 ajay Mon, 25 Jun 2007 10:31:51 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/#comment-201812 <i>a Queensland policeman was acquitted of manslaughter in a case in which (on the defence account) he fell on a man he had just arrested, breaking four of his ribs and cleaving his liver in two.</i> The problem of obesity in the Queensland police force is clearly not being taken seriously enough. a Queensland policeman was acquitted of manslaughter in a case in which (on the defence account) he fell on a man he had just arrested, breaking four of his ribs and cleaving his liver in two.

The problem of obesity in the Queensland police force is clearly not being taken seriously enough.

]]> By: Lang Mack http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/comment-page-1/#comment-201804 Lang Mack Mon, 25 Jun 2007 08:13:31 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/#comment-201804 One thing that strikes me is that most of the posters don't know just how big Australia is, and I include Australians in that remark, all this talk of employment and social reform, do people actually know just how isolated most of these communities are? Howard has been flying over them on his way to ponce on the worlds stage without a bloody thought, sipping on his tax payer wine he's so fond of , and now "Eureka" it's an election and I need a "war" or any crisis to find some votes. So, here we go. There is no "employment" locally in most of these remote areas, there are no medical centers, no librarys , no shops, no nothing in some cases within a ten or fifteen hour drive to a large centre. If Howard brings in the Army, and that looks likely, what, helicopters? , planes?,nice little two or three hour flying trip,fly in medical and boffin head scratchers, fly out again?,now that's how to show your sincere to the isolated, ignored (well not now ,psst"ELECTION" ),and all this for one mans ego. Why do you 'recon that these people live where they live, mostly because thats where they have always lived, sad for them that us whitey's know better and have decimated and destroyed their culture over the past two hundred years, but wait, there's hope, Howard has 'discovered' another whitey cure, ban the grog, porn, incest, bludging,handouts, that these people we afflicted with, send in the heavy artillery. Did I mention it's an election year?. They got along without us very well for some thousands of years, then we came along and put 'em on the right track, now thank heavens , as they have strayed, Howard is going to fix 'em up. Sweet. Did I mention it's an, Oh yes!. One thing that strikes me is that most of the posters don’t know just how big Australia is, and I include Australians in that remark, all this talk of employment and social reform, do people actually know just how isolated most of these communities are? Howard has been flying over them on his way to ponce on the worlds stage without a bloody thought, sipping on his tax payer wine he’s so fond of , and now “Eureka” it’s an election and I need a “war” or any crisis to find some votes. So, here we go.
There is no “employment” locally in most of these remote areas, there are no medical centers, no librarys , no shops, no nothing in some cases within a ten or fifteen hour drive to a large centre. If Howard brings in the Army, and that looks likely, what, helicopters? , planes?,nice little two or three hour flying trip,fly in medical and boffin head scratchers, fly out again?,now that’s how to show your sincere to the isolated, ignored (well not now ,psst”ELECTION” ),and all this for one mans ego. Why do you ‘recon that these people live where they live, mostly because thats where they have always lived, sad for them that us whitey’s know better and have decimated and destroyed their culture over the past two hundred years, but wait, there’s hope, Howard has ‘discovered’ another whitey cure, ban the grog, porn, incest, bludging,handouts, that these people we afflicted with, send in the heavy artillery. Did I mention it’s an election year?.
They got along without us very well for some thousands of years, then we came along and put ‘em on the right track, now thank heavens , as they have strayed, Howard is going to fix ‘em up. Sweet. Did I mention it’s an, Oh yes!.

]]> By: Rhyd http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/comment-page-1/#comment-201750 Rhyd Sun, 24 Jun 2007 23:50:41 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/#comment-201750 (and please forgive the bad mark-up) (and please forgive the bad mark-up)

]]> By: Rhyd http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/comment-page-1/#comment-201749 Rhyd Sun, 24 Jun 2007 23:49:54 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/#comment-201749 <i>Presumably an interest in pornography so intense that it gets in the way of actually having sex or raising kids would be evolutionarily disadvantageous. This does not seem to be a problem in Aborigine communities judging by the number of children. Can you please explain why you think an extreme interest in porn would be evolved out of Europeans?</i> I'm not arguing for any such thing, but actually asking you how your theory includes and justifies the pornography ban. The ban is not just on alchohol, and a significant aspect of the study concerns pornography in aboriginal communities. If alchoholism is something such groups haven't evolved a tolerance to, than is that the justification also for the porn ban? Look, my point about <i>misusing evolutionary theory</i> is not whether a genetic predisposition can be found, it is that it has dangerous consequences for public policy and tends to get used as a posteriori explanations and defenses for policies that derive from entirely different bases. I don't know if Arendt is okay to mention in these kinds of discussions, but her analysis of the development of race theory as a posteriori defense for practices of subjugation (eg. slavery) (Burden of our Times) seems very relevant. Do we not see the same sort of thing happening with evolutionary theory? Its (mis?)uses in the realm of indigenous relations seems exactly the kind of thing we ought to concern ourselves with. Sometimes, one suspects that it isn't <i><b>mis</b></i>-use at all and is instead--at least from a historical perspective--a natural outgrowth of "the white man's burden." Presumably an interest in pornography so intense that it gets in the way of actually having sex or raising kids would be evolutionarily disadvantageous. This does not seem to be a problem in Aborigine communities judging by the number of children. Can you please explain why you think an extreme interest in porn would be evolved out of Europeans?

I’m not arguing for any such thing, but actually asking you how your theory includes and justifies the pornography ban. The ban is not just on alchohol, and a significant aspect of the study concerns pornography in aboriginal communities. If alchoholism is something such groups haven’t evolved a tolerance to, than is that the justification also for the porn ban?

Look, my point about misusing evolutionary theory is not whether a genetic predisposition can be found, it is that it has dangerous consequences for public policy and tends to get used as a posteriori explanations and defenses for policies that derive from entirely different bases.

I don’t know if Arendt is okay to mention in these kinds of discussions, but her analysis of the development of race theory as a posteriori defense for practices of subjugation (eg. slavery) (Burden of our Times) seems very relevant.

Do we not see the same sort of thing happening with evolutionary theory? Its (mis?)uses in the realm of indigenous relations seems exactly the kind of thing we ought to concern ourselves with.
Sometimes, one suspects that it isn’t misuse at all and is instead-at least from a historical perspective—a natural outgrowth of “the white man’s burden.”

]]> By: Tracy W http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/comment-page-1/#comment-201741 Tracy W Sun, 24 Jun 2007 21:45:54 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/#comment-201741 <i>Mis-uses of evolutionary theory have had great consequences in the past, and i was hoping our experiences with eugenics would have taught us this is a bloody path. </i> This is irrelevant to the questions of whether alcoholism has a genetic component and if so, if the frequency of that genetic component varies across different population groups. <i>If the Australian government was really non-racist about prohibiting alcohol (and don’t forget porn in this equation), than they’d ban it everywhere. If it isn’t good for native communities, why should it be okay for everyone else? Because they’ve built up a long biological tolerance for it?</i> You got it. Of course alcoholism causes a lot of damage when it occurs in anyone, regardless of their genetic history. But the level of social problems are going to be higher the higher the rate of alcoholism. And high social problems means more support from the local community for *something* to be done. Whether that is effective is another question entirely. I am suspicious of the effectiveness of any alcohol ban in any community, regardless of ethnic group. <i>And how do you explain the porn? Do men of european ancestry (and really, try tracing that!) react to depictions of sex more moderately?</i> In my experience, sex is necessary for children, so I'm not sure what evolutionary argument you are running as to why an interest in sex would get "bred out" of any population. The argument for alcoholism being bred out is that alcoholics are unattractive spouses, and bad parents (eg spending resources on alcohol rather than food for the kids). Presumably an interest in pornography so intense that it gets in the way of actually having sex or raising kids would be evolutionarily disadvantageous. This does not seem to be a problem in Aborigine communities judging by the number of children. Can you please explain why you think an extreme interest in porn would be evolved out of Europeans? And I don't ignore the influences of environment. I've just noticed that we all have bodies and our brains are as much part of our bodies as our livers and thus will be affected by what is going on in our bodies. And what is going on in our bodies is affected by our genes responding what is going on in our environment. Not everything is a matter of moral fiber. Mis-uses of evolutionary theory have had great consequences in the past, and i was hoping our experiences with eugenics would have taught us this is a bloody path.

This is irrelevant to the questions of whether alcoholism has a genetic component and if so, if the frequency of that genetic component varies across different population groups.

If the Australian government was really non-racist about prohibiting alcohol (and don’t forget porn in this equation), than they’d ban it everywhere. If it isn’t good for native communities, why should it be okay for everyone else? Because they’ve built up a long biological tolerance for it?

You got it. Of course alcoholism causes a lot of damage when it occurs in anyone, regardless of their genetic history. But the level of social problems are going to be higher the higher the rate of alcoholism. And high social problems means more support from the local community for something to be done. Whether that is effective is another question entirely. I am suspicious of the effectiveness of any alcohol ban in any community, regardless of ethnic group.

And how do you explain the porn? Do men of european ancestry (and really, try tracing that!) react to depictions of sex more moderately?

In my experience, sex is necessary for children, so I’m not sure what evolutionary argument you are running as to why an interest in sex would get “bred out” of any population. The argument for alcoholism being bred out is that alcoholics are unattractive spouses, and bad parents (eg spending resources on alcohol rather than food for the kids).

Presumably an interest in pornography so intense that it gets in the way of actually having sex or raising kids would be evolutionarily disadvantageous. This does not seem to be a problem in Aborigine communities judging by the number of children. Can you please explain why you think an extreme interest in porn would be evolved out of Europeans?

And I don’t ignore the influences of environment. I’ve just noticed that we all have bodies and our brains are as much part of our bodies as our livers and thus will be affected by what is going on in our bodies. And what is going on in our bodies is affected by our genes responding what is going on in our environment. Not everything is a matter of moral fiber.

]]> By: Rhyd http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/comment-page-1/#comment-201740 Rhyd Sun, 24 Jun 2007 21:44:11 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/#comment-201740 BW: I'm familiar both with head start programs (my mother worked for one and both my sisters benefited from them) and community policing (I sat on a Community Policing board for two years). I have nothing favorable to say about the latter. The point is, though, that urban policies are never limited to these, and child-removal rates in minority neighbourhoods are very, very real. But again, why not draw the parallel instead between indigenous peoples on different continents, victims of the same processes? Why avoid this much more obvious parallel? When First Nations have been given back full control of their lands, cultures, and government, the results have been incredibly positive. I'm not just talking about Casinos, either. Let them have their sacred places back. Don't force them to accept anglo-capitalist models. Instead of putting them on the dole, give them the entire sum owed to them by governments and corporations who have taken their land. Include interest. Allow them to make their own decisions, even (especially) if this includes sovereignty and statehood. respect that any resources on those lands belong to them, not to the state. Let them develop treaties with other nations (other indigenous groups or other nation-states). Don't sabotage their attempts to regain their culture and political voice (i refer particularly to the FBI/ATF in the states, though Canada is just as guilty;i know nothing of Australian covert political manipulations, but the anglo-model is well know, so i doubt Howard hasn't been tempted). BW: I’m familiar both with head start programs (my mother worked for one and both my sisters benefited from them) and community policing (I sat on a Community Policing board for two years). I have nothing favorable to say about the latter. The point is, though, that urban policies are never limited to these, and child-removal rates in minority neighbourhoods are very, very real.

But again, why not draw the parallel instead between indigenous peoples on different continents, victims of the same processes? Why avoid this much more obvious parallel?

When First Nations have been given back full control of their lands, cultures, and government, the results have been incredibly positive. I’m not just talking about Casinos, either.

Let them have their sacred places back. Don’t force them to accept anglo-capitalist models. Instead of putting them on the dole, give them the entire sum owed to them by governments and corporations who have taken their land. Include interest. Allow them to make their own decisions, even (especially) if this includes sovereignty and statehood. respect that any resources on those lands belong to them, not to the state. Let them develop treaties with other nations (other indigenous groups or other nation-states). Don’t sabotage their attempts to regain their culture and political voice (i refer particularly to the FBI/ATF in the states, though Canada is just as guilty;i know nothing of Australian covert political manipulations, but the anglo-model is well know, so i doubt Howard hasn’t been tempted).

]]> By: martin Wisse http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/comment-page-1/#comment-201738 martin Wisse Sun, 24 Jun 2007 21:20:14 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/#comment-201738 I thought Howard's plan sounded like one of <a href="http://www.cloggie.org/wissewords/index.php?entry=/20070623-howard-has-plans.txt" rel="nofollow">Tonuy Blair's crime initiatives</a>: though on symptoms, not so tough on the causes of those symptoms... I thought Howard’s plan sounded like one of Tonuy Blair’s crime initiatives: though on symptoms, not so tough on the causes of those symptoms…

]]> By: Bruce Western http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/comment-page-1/#comment-201727 Bruce Western Sun, 24 Jun 2007 17:34:15 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/06/23/the-crisis-in-australian-indigenous-communities/#comment-201727 <i> THe aboriginal situation is very different from the black ghettoes in the U.S. that Bruce Western discusses. The level of physical remoteness and cultural isolation is far greater, and educational attainment is less. </i> I'd be interested to know how big the gap is. Just thinking about the young men in the US prison system, they average a 10th grade education, and a seventh grade reading level. How much different is the situation of young men in indigenous communities in NT or FNQ? Anyway, my point was not that poor urban communities in the US are generally similar to indigenous communities in rural Australia. Rather, I'm thinking that the several respects in which they are similar (high crime and unemployment) suggest that a combination of policing, employment, and early child programs would help in Australia. Why would the US-Australia differences rule out these measures? And if not measures like these, then what? THe aboriginal situation is very different from the black ghettoes in the U.S. that Bruce Western discusses. The level of physical remoteness and cultural isolation is far greater, and educational attainment is less.

I’d be interested to know how big the gap is. Just thinking about the young men in the US prison system, they average a 10th grade education, and a seventh grade reading level. How much different is the situation of young men in indigenous communities in NT or FNQ?

Anyway, my point was not that poor urban communities in the US are generally similar to indigenous communities in rural Australia. Rather, I’m thinking that the several respects in which they are similar (high crime and unemployment) suggest that a combination of policing, employment, and early child programs would help in Australia. Why would the US-Australia differences rule out these measures? And if not measures like these, then what?

]]>