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	<title>Comments on: Should feminists support basic income?</title>
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	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Alas, a blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Link Farm &#38; Open Thread #50</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/comment-page-1/#comment-203781</link>
		<dc:creator>Alas, a blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Link Farm &#38; Open Thread #50</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2007 17:44:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/#comment-203781</guid>
		<description>[...] Crooked Timber: Why Feminists Should Not Support The Basic Income I don&#8217;t think I agree, but it&#8217;s certainly interesting enough to link to. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] Crooked Timber: Why Feminists Should Not Support The Basic Income I don&#8217;t think I agree, but it&#8217;s certainly interesting enough to link to. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ingrid Robeyns</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/comment-page-1/#comment-203437</link>
		<dc:creator>Ingrid Robeyns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2007 06:21:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/#comment-203437</guid>
		<description>h.e.baber: to my mind poor working conditions are only in part a feminist issue, but rather an issue of the labour movement - it&#039;s also a problem for many disadvantaged men. I&#039;ve responded in #30 why I doubt that a basic income (which, in order to be feasible, I take it will be at a low level, most likely not even reaching what counts as the relative poverty treshold in the USA) will increase poor women&#039;s bargaining power on the labour market, since the level will be too low to really allow them to opt out of the labour market. To change their bargaing condition you need modern labour unions or politicians who understand the need of a regulated (which does not have to equal inflexible) labour market. So I&#039;d say: In the US, first fight for decent working conditions and minimum wages, and then think about basic income. Chances are real that if you have the second, it will be used to argue that people no longer need the former.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>h.e.baber: to my mind poor working conditions are only in part a feminist issue, but rather an issue of the labour movement &#8211; it&#8217;s also a problem for many disadvantaged men. I&#8217;ve responded in #30 why I doubt that a basic income (which, in order to be feasible, I take it will be at a low level, most likely not even reaching what counts as the relative poverty treshold in the <span class="caps">USA</span>) will increase poor women&#8217;s bargaining power on the labour market, since the level will be too low to really allow them to opt out of the labour market. To change their bargaing condition you need modern labour unions or politicians who understand the need of a regulated (which does not have to equal inflexible) labour market. So I&#8217;d say: In the US, first fight for decent working conditions and minimum wages, and then think about basic income. Chances are real that if you have the second, it will be used to argue that people no longer need the former.</p>
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		<title>By: H. E. Baber</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/comment-page-1/#comment-203305</link>
		<dc:creator>H. E. Baber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2007 15:11:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/#comment-203305</guid>
		<description>A basic income would give women bargaining chips and a cushion so that they wouldn&#039;t be forced into exploitative, boring, dead-end pink-collar jobs in the service sector--where overcrowding keeps wages down. The &quot;end of welfare as we know it&quot; has been a bonanza for employers of unskilled female workers: without financial support from husbands, without state support and without access to traditionally male blue-collar jobs women queue up for this miserable, underpaid, boring drudge work. I wonder if it&#039;s an accident that Walmart took off just when women&#039;s safety nets disintegrated.

There may be disadvantages that offset this enormous benefit to women. I&#039;m amazed though that this one hasn&#039;t figured significantly in the discussion. It strongly suggests the skewed interest of some feminists in promoting the interests of relatively privileged women for whom the danger of ending up behind the Walmart checkstand isn&#039;t a real concern.

In fact, I&#039;m furious that it isn&#039;t. The most important feminist issue is making it possible for women to avoid boring, dead-end, poorly paid women&#039;s work--possibly by providing some financial cushion so that they aren&#039;t forced to do it and certainly by fighting sex discrimination in employment so that working class women can get guy jobs--in construction, in skilled blue-collar trades and the like.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>A basic income would give women bargaining chips and a cushion so that they wouldn&#8217;t be forced into exploitative, boring, dead-end pink-collar jobs in the service sector&#8212;where overcrowding keeps wages down. The &#8220;end of welfare as we know it&#8221; has been a bonanza for employers of unskilled female workers: without financial support from husbands, without state support and without access to traditionally male blue-collar jobs women queue up for this miserable, underpaid, boring drudge work. I wonder if it&#8217;s an accident that Walmart took off just when women&#8217;s safety nets disintegrated.</p>

	<p>There may be disadvantages that offset this enormous benefit to women. I&#8217;m amazed though that this one hasn&#8217;t figured significantly in the discussion. It strongly suggests the skewed interest of some feminists in promoting the interests of relatively privileged women for whom the danger of ending up behind the Walmart checkstand isn&#8217;t a real concern.</p>

	<p>In fact, I&#8217;m furious that it isn&#8217;t. The most important feminist issue is making it possible for women to avoid boring, dead-end, poorly paid women&#8217;s work&#8212;possibly by providing some financial cushion so that they aren&#8217;t forced to do it and certainly by fighting sex discrimination in employment so that working class women can get guy jobs&#8212;in construction, in skilled blue-collar trades and the like.</p>
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		<title>By: sanbikinoraion</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/comment-page-1/#comment-203290</link>
		<dc:creator>sanbikinoraion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2007 14:12:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/#comment-203290</guid>
		<description>I know that this is a radical proposal but &lt;i&gt;how about people pay to support their own children that they&#039;ve chosen to have&lt;/i&gt;? Subsidizing the production of babies in the UK over the last ten years seems to be to have given rise to an underclass of poor single mothers who live on benefits because doing so is better than the alternative (not having baby and working in shitty call centre 40hrs pw).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I know that this is a radical proposal but <i>how about people pay to support their own children that they&#8217;ve chosen to have</i>? Subsidizing the production of babies in the UK over the last ten years seems to be to have given rise to an underclass of poor single mothers who live on benefits because doing so is better than the alternative (not having baby and working in shitty call centre 40hrs pw).</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Wadsworth</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/comment-page-1/#comment-203283</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Wadsworth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:36:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/#comment-203283</guid>
		<description>&quot;The monthly cost of a full-time child care place in the Netherlands is over 1.000 Euro; so the basic income for children will not cover that cost&quot;

How about if we have nursery vouchers on top? Speaking for the UK, there are several different overlapping schemes, some means tested, some flat rate and some tax breaks, which add up to about £80 per week, enough to pay for three days nursery per week.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;The monthly cost of a full-time child care place in the Netherlands is over 1.000 Euro; so the basic income for children will not cover that cost&#8221;</p>

	<p>How about if we have nursery vouchers on top? Speaking for the UK, there are several different overlapping schemes, some means tested, some flat rate and some tax breaks, which add up to about &#163;80 per week, enough to pay for three days nursery per week.</p>
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		<title>By: sanbikinoraion</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/comment-page-1/#comment-203269</link>
		<dc:creator>sanbikinoraion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2007 10:58:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/#comment-203269</guid>
		<description>katherine @ 26 &amp; 18:

I think you&#039;re thinking more deeply about my comment than is really necessary. All I mean about &quot;replacing a parents&#039; duties with paid labour&quot; is that you&#039;re paying someone else to change the nappies. My point was really that I don&#039;t think that childcare costs are relevant to a discussion on the pros and cons of basic income to women, when it is other effects that are, imarhacotyvm*, leading to the prevalence of women taking time off to care for children instead of men.

To answer your last question, I don&#039;t really believe my opinion is worth that much (but typing things on the Internet is cheap, so I do it), which is why I&#039;m for reform of the UK parental leave system to allow parents to choose for themselves how much parental leave each parent chooses to take.

[* In My Actually Rather Humble And Correctable Opinion Thank You Very Much]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>katherine @ 26 &#038; 18:</p>

	<p>I think you&#8217;re thinking more deeply about my comment than is really necessary. All I mean about &#8220;replacing a parents&#8217; duties with paid labour&#8221; is that you&#8217;re paying someone else to change the nappies. My point was really that I don&#8217;t think that childcare costs are relevant to a discussion on the pros and cons of basic income to women, when it is other effects that are, imarhacotyvm*, leading to the prevalence of women taking time off to care for children instead of men.</p>

	<p>To answer your last question, I don&#8217;t really believe my opinion is worth that much (but typing things on the Internet is cheap, so I do it), which is why I&#8217;m for reform of the UK parental leave system to allow parents to choose for themselves how much parental leave each parent chooses to take.</p>

	<p>[* In My Actually Rather Humble And Correctable Opinion Thank You Very Much]</p>
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		<title>By: sanbikinoraion</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/comment-page-1/#comment-203264</link>
		<dc:creator>sanbikinoraion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2007 10:35:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/#comment-203264</guid>
		<description>terence @ 36:

Yes, I believe that it&#039;s really easily attainable. For the half of the country that are working already, taxing an additional £2-3k on average, &lt;i&gt;when you&#039;re giving them £6k in return&lt;/i&gt; would surely not be contentious?

In terms of political capital for persuading the general public that this would be a good thing, I&#039;m less convinced. Most people who I talk to about it have the instant reaction that it would be a terrible idea, and I&#039;m not entirely sure why.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>terence @ 36:</p>

	<p>Yes, I believe that it&#8217;s really easily attainable. For the half of the country that are working already, taxing an additional &#163;2-3k on average, <i>when you&#8217;re giving them &#163;6k in return</i> would surely not be contentious?</p>

	<p>In terms of political capital for persuading the general public that this would be a good thing, I&#8217;m less convinced. Most people who I talk to about it have the instant reaction that it would be a terrible idea, and I&#8217;m not entirely sure why.</p>
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		<title>By: Katherine</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/comment-page-1/#comment-203260</link>
		<dc:creator>Katherine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:29:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/#comment-203260</guid>
		<description>Slocum @ 22 - you are joking right?  I&#039;m sure that whilst socialists would wish long term for the attainment of equalisation of wealth, that doesn&#039;t mean they are going to be campaigning for the rights of the rich until then.  Similarly, whilst I&#039;m sure a feminist will tell you the ultimate goal is some form of equality between the sexes, I&#039;m pretty sure the focus is going to be on the oppressed group overall (ie the women) in the meantime.

And I love your North American college graduate example, because that neatly segues into the point about feminism being/not being about middle class, rich, women.  I&#039;m sure if you want a conversation about higher education in North American colleges you could get one.  But I&#039;m pretty sure also that in the field of education, since the US of A isn&#039;t in fact the entire world, a feminist might want to talk about the denial of primary education to girl children in the Third World.  Or they might want you to take a gander at, say, Iran, where the large number of female graduates doesn&#039;t seem to have translated into an equal power structure in the country.  Just for example.

I&#039;m noting also the phenomenon quite well known amongst feminists that, in an open conversation about women or a subject pertaining to them, the chances are that someone, somehow, will manage to turn the conversation around to not being about women after all.  The feminist equivalent of Godwin&#039;s Law, if you will.  You&#039;ve succeeded admirably on that.  Bravo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Slocum @ 22 &#8211; you are joking right?  I&#8217;m sure that whilst socialists would wish long term for the attainment of equalisation of wealth, that doesn&#8217;t mean they are going to be campaigning for the rights of the rich until then.  Similarly, whilst I&#8217;m sure a feminist will tell you the ultimate goal is some form of equality between the sexes, I&#8217;m pretty sure the focus is going to be on the oppressed group overall (ie the women) in the meantime.</p>

	<p>And I love your North American college graduate example, because that neatly segues into the point about feminism being/not being about middle class, rich, women.  I&#8217;m sure if you want a conversation about higher education in North American colleges you could get one.  But I&#8217;m pretty sure also that in the field of education, since the US of A isn&#8217;t in fact the entire world, a feminist might want to talk about the denial of primary education to girl children in the Third World.  Or they might want you to take a gander at, say, Iran, where the large number of female graduates doesn&#8217;t seem to have translated into an equal power structure in the country.  Just for example.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m noting also the phenomenon quite well known amongst feminists that, in an open conversation about women or a subject pertaining to them, the chances are that someone, somehow, will manage to turn the conversation around to not being about women after all.  The feminist equivalent of Godwin&#8217;s Law, if you will.  You&#8217;ve succeeded admirably on that.  Bravo.</p>
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		<title>By: reuben</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/comment-page-1/#comment-203256</link>
		<dc:creator>reuben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2007 08:01:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/#comment-203256</guid>
		<description>Harry - sorry, that&#039;s just something I pulled out of my behind (though not without a bit of thought). I haven&#039;t seen it worked through anywhere, so am really looking forward to your post and paper.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Harry &#8211; sorry, that&#8217;s just something I pulled out of my behind (though not without a bit of thought). I haven&#8217;t seen it worked through anywhere, so am really looking forward to your post and paper.</p>
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		<title>By: terence</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/comment-page-1/#comment-203218</link>
		<dc:creator>terence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jul 2007 21:08:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/#comment-203218</guid>
		<description>To the first commentor, way up thread: Even with your numbers you&#039;re still looking at a 16% increase in government spending. Does any party in England have the political capital to raise this? And, even if they did, are you sure that you wouldn&#039;t want it spent on the NHS and schools?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>To the first commentor, way up thread: Even with your numbers you&#8217;re still looking at a 16% increase in government spending. Does any party in England have the political capital to raise this? And, even if they did, are you sure that you wouldn&#8217;t want it spent on the <span class="caps">NHS</span> and schools?</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/comment-page-1/#comment-203211</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jul 2007 20:29:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/#comment-203211</guid>
		<description>In the US now it&#039;s essentially required to have a BS in nursing to be a nurse in a good paying position.  That doesn&#039;t seem unreasonable to me giving that the job has become significantly more complex over the years.  Many nurses have an MS (and some have an MS in nursing with a different BA or BS altogether.)  When my mother started as a nurse nearly 35 years ago (though she didn&#039;t work for about 12 or 13 years) most nurses (including her) had only AA (two year) degrees in nursing, though at least that has been required in the US for a very long time.  

I know a bit about the situation in Russia, where nurses study for 4 years, but it&#039;s a poorly paid job that&#039;s not well respected.  (Also, you can start in nursing school after the 9th year of eduction, and if you go for all 10 years of regular education you only go for 3 years.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In the US now it&#8217;s essentially required to have a BS in nursing to be a nurse in a good paying position.  That doesn&#8217;t seem unreasonable to me giving that the job has become significantly more complex over the years.  Many nurses have an <span class="caps">MS </span>(and some have an MS in nursing with a different BA or BS altogether.)  When my mother started as a nurse nearly 35 years ago (though she didn&#8217;t work for about 12 or 13 years) most nurses (including her) had only <span class="caps">AA </span>(two year) degrees in nursing, though at least that has been required in the US for a very long time.</p>

	<p>I know a bit about the situation in Russia, where nurses study for 4 years, but it&#8217;s a poorly paid job that&#8217;s not well respected.  (Also, you can start in nursing school after the 9th year of eduction, and if you go for all 10 years of regular education you only go for 3 years.)</p>
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		<title>By: Ingrid Robeyns</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/comment-page-1/#comment-203207</link>
		<dc:creator>Ingrid Robeyns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jul 2007 20:01:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/#comment-203207</guid>
		<description>matt, admittedly I&#039;m not informed by the most recent statistics but rather by what I see around me, and in only two countries where I&#039;m watching these kind of social issues. I would in fact be very happy to be wrong, and to be corrected. I think, though, that the degree requirements for carers (nurses, child minders, elderly carers) in different countries differ drastically. For example, in some countries nursing requires a university degree, whereas in the Netherlands and Belgium that is not the case (what about other EU countries?)
I recently saw a local add for an elderly carer in an offical institution paying less than 6 Euro before tax. I think these are horribly low wages. But if a CT reader has more general and reliable and internatinoally comparible info, I&#039;d be very grateful if you&#039;d share it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>matt, admittedly I&#8217;m not informed by the most recent statistics but rather by what I see around me, and in only two countries where I&#8217;m watching these kind of social issues. I would in fact be very happy to be wrong, and to be corrected. I think, though, that the degree requirements for carers (nurses, child minders, elderly carers) in different countries differ drastically. For example, in some countries nursing requires a university degree, whereas in the Netherlands and Belgium that is not the case (what about other EU countries?)<br />
I recently saw a local add for an elderly carer in an offical institution paying less than 6 Euro before tax. I think these are horribly low wages. But if a CT reader has more general and reliable and internatinoally comparible info, I&#8217;d be very grateful if you&#8217;d share it.</p>
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		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/comment-page-1/#comment-203204</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:42:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/#comment-203204</guid>
		<description>I think the same is true in the UK as the US -- pay going up for nurses. Though it is also true that the barriers to entry have been going up, and the job has been changing a good deal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think the same is true in the UK as the <span class="caps">US </span>&#8212;pay going up for nurses. Though it is also true that the barriers to entry have been going up, and the job has been changing a good deal.</p>
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		<title>By: matt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/comment-page-1/#comment-203195</link>
		<dc:creator>matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:07:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/#comment-203195</guid>
		<description>Ingrid,

I looked at Alsott&#039;s paper in the Van Parijs volume again briefly before going out this morning and I think you&#039;re right that it&#039;s not particularly strong on the gender analysis.  (In fairness it&#039;s only 5 pages long, I guess.)  I was struck by one comment you make: 
_&quot;in many countries there are constantly large number of vacancies for nurses and other kind of carers, and still the wages don’t go up._&quot;  
I&#039;m more than happy to take your word for it, but it&#039;s surprising to me because, in the US, being a nurse, at least at a hospital, is a quite well paying job, and pay has only been rising for many years.  It&#039;s one of the few jobs I can think of where, with just a 4-year degree, one is nearly guarenteed to find a good paying job with lots of prospects of wage increases right after graduation.  (My mother is a nurse who has slowly moved into management so I hear about such things quite a lot.)  Odd that it would be so different in other countries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ingrid,</p>

	<p>I looked at Alsott&#8217;s paper in the Van Parijs volume again briefly before going out this morning and I think you&#8217;re right that it&#8217;s not particularly strong on the gender analysis.  (In fairness it&#8217;s only 5 pages long, I guess.)  I was struck by one comment you make:<br />
<em>&#8220;in many countries there are constantly large number of vacancies for nurses and other kind of carers, and still the wages don&#8217;t go up.</em>&#8221;<br />
I&#8217;m more than happy to take your word for it, but it&#8217;s surprising to me because, in the US, being a nurse, at least at a hospital, is a quite well paying job, and pay has only been rising for many years.  It&#8217;s one of the few jobs I can think of where, with just a 4-year degree, one is nearly guarenteed to find a good paying job with lots of prospects of wage increases right after graduation.  (My mother is a nurse who has slowly moved into management so I hear about such things quite a lot.)  Odd that it would be so different in other countries.</p>
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		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/comment-page-1/#comment-203183</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jul 2007 18:31:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/10/should-feminists-support-basic-income/#comment-203183</guid>
		<description>reuben -- I&#039;ve just finished a draft of a paper advocating the reform you describe in #17. Did you get it from somewhere? We got it from fiddling around with ideas, but we&#039;d love to cite soemone proposing it in print. I&#039;ll do a post on the paper once its up on the web.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>reuben&#8212;I&#8217;ve just finished a draft of a paper advocating the reform you describe in #17. Did you get it from somewhere? We got it from fiddling around with ideas, but we&#8217;d love to cite soemone proposing it in print. I&#8217;ll do a post on the paper once its up on the web.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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