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	<title>Comments on: Denby on Sicko</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Pete</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/comment-page-2/#comment-204134</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2007 16:57:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/#comment-204134</guid>
		<description>Oops - &quot;controversy over what treatments will be paid for&quot;, I should have said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oops &#8211; &#8220;controversy over what treatments will be paid for&#8221;, I should have said.</p>
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		<title>By: Pete</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/comment-page-1/#comment-204133</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2007 16:56:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/#comment-204133</guid>
		<description>Google &quot;nhs herceptin&quot; for a good example of the controversy over 

Also, http://randomreality.blogware.com/ and the NHS blog doctor for what the NHS looks like from the inside. It&#039;s an organisation that provides excellent medical care - when it is allowed to do so, and when it&#039;s not having its time wasted by the public.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Google &#8220;nhs herceptin&#8221; for a good example of the controversy over</p>

	<p>Also, <a href="http://randomreality.blogware.com/" rel="nofollow">http://randomreality.blogware.com/</a> and the <span class="caps">NHS</span> blog doctor for what the <span class="caps">NHS</span> looks like from the inside. It&#8217;s an organisation that provides excellent medical care &#8211; when it is allowed to do so, and when it&#8217;s not having its time wasted by the public.</p>
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		<title>By: glenn</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/comment-page-1/#comment-204105</link>
		<dc:creator>glenn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2007 13:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/#comment-204105</guid>
		<description>One certainly doesn&#039;t have to be a right winger to dislike Michael Moore and/or his movies. Part of it is his &#039;tude, the condescension, the smarter/better/holier and more righteous than thou, and patronizing attitude.

There are those on the left, or at least agrees with much of MM is trying to accomplish, who believe his sledgehammer-and-smirk is probably more counter-productive since he&#039;s sooooo willing to offend the mighty (to afflict the comfortable ---- which is his #1 modus operandi), rather than comfort the afflicted, which is what his guise it. Whether it&#039;s true or not, he certainly comes across as having much more fun throwing the stones than picking up the downtrodden.

And I&#039;ve made these similar comments on other blogs, so some will recognize them ... but two hours with coke and a popcorn is really the only and appropriate venue for MM.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>One certainly doesn&#8217;t have to be a right winger to dislike Michael Moore and/or his movies. Part of it is his &#8216;tude, the condescension, the smarter/better/holier and more righteous than thou, and patronizing attitude.</p>

	<p>There are those on the left, or at least agrees with much of MM is trying to accomplish, who believe his sledgehammer-and-smirk is probably more counter-productive since he&#8217;s sooooo willing to offend the mighty (to afflict the comfortable&#8212;&#8212;which is his #1 modus operandi), rather than comfort the afflicted, which is what his guise it. Whether it&#8217;s true or not, he certainly comes across as having much more fun throwing the stones than picking up the downtrodden.</p>

	<p>And I&#8217;ve made these similar comments on other blogs, so some will recognize them &#8230; but two hours with coke and a popcorn is really the only and appropriate venue for MM.</p>
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		<title>By: PJ</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/comment-page-1/#comment-203974</link>
		<dc:creator>PJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 22:15:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/#comment-203974</guid>
		<description>I disagree, the advances are made when they push the envelope and try and cure a disease as part of a clinical trial - anything else is just pissing in the wind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I disagree, the advances are made when they push the envelope and try and cure a disease as part of a clinical trial &#8211; anything else is just pissing in the wind.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Finkelstein</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/comment-page-1/#comment-203968</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Finkelstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 21:54:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/#comment-203968</guid>
		<description>FYI:

http://oracknows.blogspot.com/2005/12/when-is-cancer-care-futile.html

&quot;Part of the problem is, of course, that there are limited resources, and the public health question is whether we should be putting so many resources into &quot;hopeless&quot; cases. The reality is that Sontag underwent a bone marrow transplant only because she had the money to pay for it if her insurance company didn&#039;t come through. She had to put up a $256,000 deposit before the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Center would proceed to treat her. Only a small percentage of the population could afford that; anyone of lesser means would have had to fight his insurance company while precious time ticked away, making a tiny chance infitessimal.

But the real problem here is that the areas where advances are most needed are exactly in these &quot;futile&quot; cases. Advances are made when doctors and their patients push the envelope and try to cure diseases that, at the time, have a very low (or seemingly nonexistent) chance of cure, sometimes at high cost, both in money and in risk. ...&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><span class="caps">FYI</span>:</p>

	<p><a href="http://oracknows.blogspot.com/2005/12/when-is-cancer-care-futile.html" rel="nofollow">http://oracknows.blogspot.com/2005/12/when-is-cancer-care-futile.html</a></p>

	<p>&#8220;Part of the problem is, of course, that there are limited resources, and the public health question is whether we should be putting so many resources into &#8220;hopeless&#8221; cases. The reality is that Sontag underwent a bone marrow transplant only because she had the money to pay for it if her insurance company didn&#8217;t come through. She had to put up a $256,000 deposit before the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Center would proceed to treat her. Only a small percentage of the population could afford that; anyone of lesser means would have had to fight his insurance company while precious time ticked away, making a tiny chance infitessimal.</p>

	<p>But the real problem here is that the areas where advances are most needed are exactly in these &#8220;futile&#8221; cases. Advances are made when doctors and their patients push the envelope and try to cure diseases that, at the time, have a very low (or seemingly nonexistent) chance of cure, sometimes at high cost, both in money and in risk. &#8230;&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/comment-page-1/#comment-203953</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 17:36:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/#comment-203953</guid>
		<description>Btw, here&#039;s what happened when I worked at the Mass. DMR. There was a provider there, certified by the state, that was using electroshock therapy (very controversial, obviously, behavior modification technique, illegal in some states) on mentally retarded. The DMR commissioner Mr. Campbell tried to decertify the place and shut it down, the provider sued, won and Campbell had to resign. This is just to give you an idea of how much leeway components of these agencies are given sometimes. In the US, at least.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Btw, here&#8217;s what happened when I worked at the Mass. <span class="caps">DMR</span>. There was a provider there, certified by the state, that was using electroshock therapy (very controversial, obviously, behavior modification technique, illegal in some states) on mentally retarded. The <span class="caps">DMR</span> commissioner Mr. Campbell tried to decertify the place and shut it down, the provider sued, won and Campbell had to resign. This is just to give you an idea of how much leeway components of these agencies are given sometimes. In the US, at least.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/comment-page-1/#comment-203941</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 16:03:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/#comment-203941</guid>
		<description>Fair enough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Fair enough.</p>
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		<title>By: PJ</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/comment-page-1/#comment-203928</link>
		<dc:creator>PJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 15:13:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/#comment-203928</guid>
		<description>abb1, larger organisations like the NHS (one of the world&#039;s biggest employers) have rather more division of labour, with, as I said, purchaser/provider split and internal markets. There is room for discretion over little things (e.g. thrombolysis in stroke patients over 80yrs), but not over whether people get unproven bone marrow transplants.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>abb1, larger organisations like the <span class="caps">NHS </span>(one of the world&#8217;s biggest employers) have rather more division of labour, with, as I said, purchaser/provider split and internal markets. There is room for discretion over little things (e.g. thrombolysis in stroke patients over 80yrs), but not over whether people get unproven bone marrow transplants.</p>
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		<title>By: PJ</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/comment-page-1/#comment-203927</link>
		<dc:creator>PJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 15:10:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/#comment-203927</guid>
		<description>This article on the topic:

http://washingtontimes.com/article/20070630/COMMENTARY/106300004/1012

reminded me of aspects of this debate that I find odd. In the article he talks as if the US is the only place to do clinical trials, which is bizarely shortsighted given the number of European clinical trials, admittedly there is a lot of good quality medical research done in the US, but that is due to generous US _government_ (NIH) funding to a large extent. 

A idea is that US drug costs fund all pharmaceutical research, again partly driven by the bizarre view that all big pharmaceutical companies are American (obviously false), and the more difficult to disprove view that somehow the US healthcare consumer is paying for global drug R&amp;D through their high costs, and everyone else is free-riding on the back.  I don&#039;t know whether this is true, I doubt it, and I&#039;m surprised that rightwing low tax types don&#039;t want to redistribute some of these healthcare costs back to the Europeans and their socialised medicine if this is really the case - very altruistic of them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This article on the topic:</p>

	<p><a href="http://washingtontimes.com/article/20070630/COMMENTARY/106300004/1012" rel="nofollow">http://washingtontimes.com/article/20070630/COMMENTARY/106300004/1012</a></p>

	<p>reminded me of aspects of this debate that I find odd. In the article he talks as if the US is the only place to do clinical trials, which is bizarely shortsighted given the number of European clinical trials, admittedly there is a lot of good quality medical research done in the US, but that is due to generous <span class="caps">US </span><em>government</em> (NIH) funding to a large extent.</p>

	<p>A idea is that US drug costs fund all pharmaceutical research, again partly driven by the bizarre view that all big pharmaceutical companies are American (obviously false), and the more difficult to disprove view that somehow the US healthcare consumer is paying for global drug R&#038;D through their high costs, and everyone else is free-riding on the back.  I don&#8217;t know whether this is true, I doubt it, and I&#8217;m surprised that rightwing low tax types don&#8217;t want to redistribute some of these healthcare costs back to the Europeans and their socialised medicine if this is really the case &#8211; very altruistic of them.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/comment-page-1/#comment-203924</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 14:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/#comment-203924</guid>
		<description>I worked for a state department of mental retardation for several years. They had caseworkers, they had budgets, they hired contractors. Caseworkers had a lot of discretion, and they did experiment. Sometimes their workload was heavy and their budget was low, sometimes it was the opposite and then they were looking for ways to spend more and take more cases. Anything was possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I worked for a state department of mental retardation for several years. They had caseworkers, they had budgets, they hired contractors. Caseworkers had a lot of discretion, and they did experiment. Sometimes their workload was heavy and their budget was low, sometimes it was the opposite and then they were looking for ways to spend more and take more cases. Anything was possible.</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/comment-page-1/#comment-203910</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 12:16:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/#comment-203910</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m afraid you don&#039;t appear to, abb1, as they do not have large numbers of surgeons sitting around &quot;twiddling their thumbs&quot; so they frequently have to make decisions about how to allocate their scarce resources. In practice they do so according to policies which are informed by cost-benefit considerations. So I don&#039;t think there is the big difference you think there is with how insurance companies operate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m afraid you don&#8217;t appear to, abb1, as they do not have large numbers of surgeons sitting around &#8220;twiddling their thumbs&#8221; so they frequently have to make decisions about how to allocate their scarce resources. In practice they do so according to policies which are informed by cost-benefit considerations. So I don&#8217;t think there is the big difference you think there is with how insurance companies operate.</p>
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		<title>By: PJ</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/comment-page-1/#comment-203907</link>
		<dc:creator>PJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 10:23:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/#comment-203907</guid>
		<description>abb1, there are not just doctors sitting around waiting to do bone marrow transplants who would otherwise be unoccupied. It is an expensive and time consuming procedure requiring specialists, with very high mortality and unproven benefits.

For a start (although even if this were not the case they still would not do a BMT) the NHS is organised along a sort of internal market with a purchaser/provider split.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>abb1, there are not just doctors sitting around waiting to do bone marrow transplants who would otherwise be unoccupied. It is an expensive and time consuming procedure requiring specialists, with very high mortality and unproven benefits.</p>

	<p>For a start (although even if this were not the case they still would not do a <span class="caps">BMT</span>) the <span class="caps">NHS</span> is organised along a sort of internal market with a purchaser/provider split.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/comment-page-1/#comment-203906</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 10:05:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/#comment-203906</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t understand what a bone marrow transplant is. But I do understand how government agencies work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t understand what a bone marrow transplant is. But I do understand how government agencies work.</p>
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		<title>By: SG</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/comment-page-1/#comment-203888</link>
		<dc:creator>SG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 05:47:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/#comment-203888</guid>
		<description>Abb1, I think Sebastian is right in general about this. One of the ways in which socialised medical systems keep costs down is by always going for the cheaper proven treatment, rather than the new expensive unproven one. Private health insurance systems tend to err on the side of the newer and better, even when they don&#039;t have to, as a function of their business model. I don&#039;t think that this is the main reason for the US&#039;s inflated prices, btw.

I grabbed this off a random website which gives an introduction to the UK&#039;s private health insurance system:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
Unless the drug has been approved for use by the NHS in England and Wales, by the Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence, your insurer is unlikely to approve its use. The problem is that the Institute&#039;s brief is not simply to decide whether a drug works, but to carry out a cost/benefit analysis to ensure that the benefits to the nation outweigh the financial costs of using it in the NHS. Not an easy brief - and one that has placed the Institute under scrutiny for the extended delays in drug approval.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

(In this quote I think &quot;insurer&quot; means private insurer, and &quot;drug&quot; can also mean &quot;treatment&quot;). so the upshot is that if the NHS won&#039;t treat you for it for free, &lt;i&gt;no-one will&lt;/i&gt;. The UK private health system has essentially incorporated the NHS&#039;s cost-control system in order to keep its own costs down.

(However, having said that - if the NHS was funded at twice it&#039;s current level, I reckon it would be able to afford almost any treatment. So probably if the NHS was receiving as much money as is pumped into the US system, England would be a much prettier place - all those dolly-birds would be getting face transplants on the NHS!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Abb1, I think Sebastian is right in general about this. One of the ways in which socialised medical systems keep costs down is by always going for the cheaper proven treatment, rather than the new expensive unproven one. Private health insurance systems tend to err on the side of the newer and better, even when they don&#8217;t have to, as a function of their business model. I don&#8217;t think that this is the main reason for the US&#8217;s inflated prices, btw.</p>

	<p>I grabbed this off a random website which gives an introduction to the UK&#8217;s private health insurance system:</p>

	<p><blockquote><br />
Unless the drug has been approved for use by the <span class="caps">NHS</span> in England and Wales, by the Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence, your insurer is unlikely to approve its use. The problem is that the Institute&#8217;s brief is not simply to decide whether a drug works, but to carry out a cost/benefit analysis to ensure that the benefits to the nation outweigh the financial costs of using it in the <span class="caps">NHS</span>. Not an easy brief &#8211; and one that has placed the Institute under scrutiny for the extended delays in drug approval.<br />
</blockquote></p>

	<p>(In this quote I think &#8220;insurer&#8221; means private insurer, and &#8220;drug&#8221; can also mean &#8220;treatment&#8221;). so the upshot is that if the <span class="caps">NHS</span> won&#8217;t treat you for it for free, <i>no-one will</i>. The UK private health system has essentially incorporated the <span class="caps">NHS</span>&#8217;s cost-control system in order to keep its own costs down.</p>

	<p>(However, having said that &#8211; if the <span class="caps">NHS</span> was funded at twice it&#8217;s current level, I reckon it would be able to afford almost any treatment. So probably if the <span class="caps">NHS</span> was receiving as much money as is pumped into the US system, England would be a much prettier place &#8211; all those dolly-birds would be getting face transplants on the <span class="caps">NHS</span>!)</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian Holsclaw</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/comment-page-1/#comment-203875</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian Holsclaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 03:11:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/12/denby-on-sicko/#comment-203875</guid>
		<description>&quot;If a salaried employee has time, it seems it would make more sense to have him administer experimental treatment than twiddle his thumbs.&quot;

I don&#039;t think you understand what a bone marrow transplant is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;If a salaried employee has time, it seems it would make more sense to have him administer experimental treatment than twiddle his thumbs.&#8221;</p>

	<p>I don&#8217;t think you understand what a bone marrow transplant is.</p>
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