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	<title>Comments on: Outliers</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: outliers - is it the data or the theory? &#171; falling upstairs</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/comment-page-1/#comment-204591</link>
		<dc:creator>outliers - is it the data or the theory? &#171; falling upstairs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2007 00:07:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/#comment-204591</guid>
		<description>[...] [Outliers, at crooked timber] [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] [Outliers, at crooked timber] [...]</p>
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		<title>By: eudoxis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/comment-page-1/#comment-204244</link>
		<dc:creator>eudoxis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jul 2007 00:09:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/#comment-204244</guid>
		<description>I look at these data and have a hard time seeing any trend.  Why start a line at zero?  There is no real data point that represents zero or anything near it. It&#039;s as theoretical as the Laffer curve. I see some clustering, that&#039;s all.  It&#039;s amazing to me that economists see anything here at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I look at these data and have a hard time seeing any trend.  Why start a line at zero?  There is no real data point that represents zero or anything near it. It&#8217;s as theoretical as the Laffer curve. I see some clustering, that&#8217;s all.  It&#8217;s amazing to me that economists see anything here at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/comment-page-1/#comment-204108</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2007 13:43:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/#comment-204108</guid>
		<description>Yes, it&#039;s clear that the graph of the &quot;Laffer Curve&quot; is in no way generated from these data -- its source is elsewhere. It would be fair to say the data contradict that curve, though a local polynomial regression or smoothing would show a small hump in the center, with or without Norway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yes, it&#8217;s clear that the graph of the &#8220;Laffer Curve&#8221; is in no way generated from these data&#8212;its source is elsewhere. It would be fair to say the data contradict that curve, though a local polynomial regression or smoothing would show a small hump in the center, with or without Norway.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/comment-page-1/#comment-204106</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2007 13:18:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/#comment-204106</guid>
		<description>Aside from the many good points raised, there&#039;s a nother - this is not a case of &#039;running a curve to the data&#039;.  If they had fit anything resembling a smoothed curve &#039;through&#039; the data, it would go &#039;through&#039; the data, not around it.  

This curve starts at the lower-left corner, and then heads to Norway, ignoring half the data.  Then, for no apparent reason, it dives down into the midst of the data on the right-hand side of the graph.

Pure BS on a whole set of levels.  But we knew that from the facts that (a) AEI made it and (b) the WSJ editorial page printed it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Aside from the many good points raised, there&#8217;s a nother &#8211; this is not a case of &#8216;running a curve to the data&#8217;.  If they had fit anything resembling a smoothed curve &#8216;through&#8217; the data, it would go &#8216;through&#8217; the data, not around it.</p>

	<p>This curve starts at the lower-left corner, and then heads to Norway, ignoring half the data.  Then, for no apparent reason, it dives down into the midst of the data on the right-hand side of the graph.</p>

	<p>Pure BS on a whole set of levels.  But we knew that from the facts that (a) <span class="caps">AEI</span> made it and (b) the <span class="caps">WSJ</span> editorial page printed it.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben M</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/comment-page-1/#comment-204067</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2007 23:11:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/#comment-204067</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like to point out something else.  Why did the WSJ not draw their Laffer curve all the way down to the x-axis, at a tax rate of about 33%?   Does the theory break down at the high zero-crossing?  (Surely not: the existence of both a low and a high zero-crossing is pretty much the only correct thing about it.)   Were they unable to constrain that tail of the curve using the data?  (Wow, such careful attention to detail!) 

No: even the graph&#039;s author must have realized that the curve would &lt;em&gt;look stupid&lt;/em&gt; plunging to zero revenue at a 33% tax rate.    So he decided to stop drawing the curve, in order to avoid drawing readers&#039; eyes towards the error.     

I think that&#039;s enough to establish---what&#039;s it called? &quot;substantial capacity&quot;?  &quot;consciousness of guilt&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;d like to point out something else.  Why did the <span class="caps">WSJ</span> not draw their Laffer curve all the way down to the x-axis, at a tax rate of about 33%?   Does the theory break down at the high zero-crossing?  (Surely not: the existence of both a low and a high zero-crossing is pretty much the only correct thing about it.)   Were they unable to constrain that tail of the curve using the data?  (Wow, such careful attention to detail!)</p>

	<p>No: even the graph&#8217;s author must have realized that the curve would <em>look stupid</em> plunging to zero revenue at a 33% tax rate.    So he decided to stop drawing the curve, in order to avoid drawing readers&#8217; eyes towards the error.</p>

	<p>I think that&#8217;s enough to establish&#8212;-what&#8217;s it called? &#8220;substantial capacity&#8221;?  &#8220;consciousness of guilt&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Crooked Timber &#187; &#187; Dept of Being Savaged by a Dead Sheep</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/comment-page-1/#comment-204051</link>
		<dc:creator>Crooked Timber &#187; &#187; Dept of Being Savaged by a Dead Sheep</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2007 20:46:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/#comment-204051</guid>
		<description>[...] I believe to be Megan McArdle weighs in at the Economist blog on the laughable graphic run by the WSJ the other day. Brad DeLong is not impressed, nor is Mark Thoma (in part because [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] I believe to be Megan McArdle weighs in at the Economist blog on the laughable graphic run by the <span class="caps">WSJ</span> the other day. Brad DeLong is not impressed, nor is Mark Thoma (in part because [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rich B.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/comment-page-1/#comment-204029</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2007 17:06:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/#comment-204029</guid>
		<description>The sad part is, it is not obvious to me that there ISN&#039;T a curve that could reasonably be derived there -- say, heading north to above Canada and then turning downward below Luxembourg.

If they had done that, they could have made their little point, and no one would have noticed, or seen their curve-fitting as terribly dishonest.

Here, they have sacrificed their point on the altar or stupidity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The sad part is, it is not obvious to me that there <span class="caps">ISN</span>&#8217;T a curve that could reasonably be derived there&#8212;say, heading north to above Canada and then turning downward below Luxembourg.</p>

	<p>If they had done that, they could have made their little point, and no one would have noticed, or seen their curve-fitting as terribly dishonest.</p>

	<p>Here, they have sacrificed their point on the altar or stupidity.</p>
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		<title>By: greensmile</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/comment-page-1/#comment-204007</link>
		<dc:creator>greensmile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2007 12:12:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/#comment-204007</guid>
		<description>One of the first bits of math I learned as a freshman was the derivation of the Least Squares regression calculation.  I have done quite a bit with that in the yeas since.  What &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; that silly line on the graph?  &quot;dishonest and stupid&quot; are entirely deserved.  I know WSJ is the bible for some business people but after this sorry inept display, who cares if that rag becomes the jewel in Merdeoch&#039;s crown?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>One of the first bits of math I learned as a freshman was the derivation of the Least Squares regression calculation.  I have done quite a bit with that in the yeas since.  What <i>is</i> that silly line on the graph?  &#8220;dishonest and stupid&#8221; are entirely deserved.  I know <span class="caps">WSJ</span> is the bible for some business people but after this sorry inept display, who cares if that rag becomes the jewel in Merdeoch&#8217;s crown?</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Kuzma</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/comment-page-1/#comment-204003</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Kuzma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2007 09:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/#comment-204003</guid>
		<description>I might be going out on a limb here, but I&#039;d say there are basically no statistical trends you can pull from that scatterplot, aside from the obvious stuff like &#039;no country has a corporate tax rate of higher than 35 percent&#039;.

One possible reason this graph is so worthlessly messy is that it uses the wrong variable for it&#039;s horizontal scale.  Rather than using the regulation tax rate on corporations, it should use the empirical effective tax rate after deductions and the like.  Maybe it should use average tax revenue as a fraction of a company&#039;s net income.  One way or another, any serious attempt to express tax law on a single dimension needs to take into consideration more than the prescribed tax rate on profits - like qualifying expenses and deductions for example.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I might be going out on a limb here, but I&#8217;d say there are basically no statistical trends you can pull from that scatterplot, aside from the obvious stuff like &#8216;no country has a corporate tax rate of higher than 35 percent&#8217;.</p>

	<p>One possible reason this graph is so worthlessly messy is that it uses the wrong variable for it&#8217;s horizontal scale.  Rather than using the regulation tax rate on corporations, it should use the empirical effective tax rate after deductions and the like.  Maybe it should use average tax revenue as a fraction of a company&#8217;s net income.  One way or another, any serious attempt to express tax law on a single dimension needs to take into consideration more than the prescribed tax rate on profits &#8211; like qualifying expenses and deductions for example.</p>
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		<title>By: c.l. ball</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/comment-page-1/#comment-203998</link>
		<dc:creator>c.l. ball</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2007 04:10:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/#comment-203998</guid>
		<description>The admonition against excluding outliers is well taken. There&#039;s a cartoon of a scientist drawing a straight line on a chalkboard through a set of data points in the 1st frame, seeing an outlier in the 2nd frame, and erasing it in the 3rd frame.

But beyond this, how would a Laffer curve be relevant to cross-national data of the kind presented here? The Laffer &#039;curve&#039; describes diminishing returns &lt;i&gt;within&lt;/i&gt; a given tax system. WSJ has apples and oranges on their curve.  I haven&#039;t seen the WSJ editorial, but do they really think the optimal corp. tax rate is 29% across &lt;i&gt;all&lt;/i&gt; countries? Their own graph does not provide much support for that -- the UK has roughly the same rate as Norway but gets far less corp. tax revenue as a % of GDP.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The admonition against excluding outliers is well taken. There&#8217;s a cartoon of a scientist drawing a straight line on a chalkboard through a set of data points in the 1st frame, seeing an outlier in the 2nd frame, and erasing it in the 3rd frame.</p>

	<p>But beyond this, how would a Laffer curve be relevant to cross-national data of the kind presented here? The Laffer &#8216;curve&#8217; describes diminishing returns <i>within</i> a given tax system. <span class="caps">WSJ</span> has apples and oranges on their curve.  I haven&#8217;t seen the <span class="caps">WSJ</span> editorial, but do they really think the optimal corp. tax rate is 29% across <i>all</i> countries? Their own graph does not provide much support for that&#8212;the UK has roughly the same rate as Norway but gets far less corp. tax revenue as a % of <span class="caps">GDP</span>.</p>
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		<title>By: Bloix</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/comment-page-1/#comment-203997</link>
		<dc:creator>Bloix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2007 03:29:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/#comment-203997</guid>
		<description>If you go over to Brad DeLong&#039;s blog, you&#039;ll learn that the UAE, which is a federation of indeprendent states, levies no direct taxes of any kind.  Its inclusion on the graph is just a bogus way of supplying a left-hand terminus.

As for Norway, in 2001 Norway partially privatized its state-owned oil company, Statoil.  Nineteen percent is currently publicly traded.  Statoil pays 78% tax on profits (28% regular corporate tax and 50% oil company surcharge).  Because it&#039;s such a big part of the economy, the tax on Statoil pushes up the corporate tax/percentage of GDP ratio.  (Of course, 81% of the remaining profits also belong to the state, but these aren&#039;t considered corporate tax.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If you go over to Brad DeLong&#8217;s blog, you&#8217;ll learn that the <span class="caps">UAE</span>, which is a federation of indeprendent states, levies no direct taxes of any kind.  Its inclusion on the graph is just a bogus way of supplying a left-hand terminus.</p>

	<p>As for Norway, in 2001 Norway partially privatized its state-owned oil company, Statoil.  Nineteen percent is currently publicly traded.  Statoil pays 78% tax on profits (28% regular corporate tax and 50% oil company surcharge).  Because it&#8217;s such a big part of the economy, the tax on Statoil pushes up the corporate tax/percentage of <span class="caps">GDP</span> ratio.  (Of course, 81% of the remaining profits also belong to the state, but these aren&#8217;t considered corporate tax.)</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/comment-page-1/#comment-203996</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2007 03:08:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/#comment-203996</guid>
		<description>Oh well, trying to put image tags in blog comments is asking a bit much, I suppose. Still, they show up in the preview.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oh well, trying to put image tags in blog comments is asking a bit much, I suppose. Still, they show up in the preview.</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/comment-page-1/#comment-203995</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2007 03:07:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/#comment-203995</guid>
		<description>The Neo-Laffer Curve

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The Neo-Laffer Curve</p>


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		<title>By: The stuff of legend [Pharyngula] &#124; Cole Blog Network dot com</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/comment-page-1/#comment-203993</link>
		<dc:creator>The stuff of legend [Pharyngula] &#124; Cole Blog Network dot com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2007 02:13:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/#comment-203993</guid>
		<description>[...] is turning up all over the place &#8212; at Brad DeLong&#8217;s, Crooked Timber, and this pair is from Cosmic Variance &#8212; it&#8217;s the most sublimely, awesomely, wickedly [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] is turning up all over the place &mdash; at Brad DeLong&#8217;s, Crooked Timber, and this pair is from Cosmic Variance &mdash; it&#8217;s the most sublimely, awesomely, wickedly [...]</p>
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		<title>By: notsneaky</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/comment-page-1/#comment-203976</link>
		<dc:creator>notsneaky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 22:24:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/14/outliers/#comment-203976</guid>
		<description>John, of course you&#039;re right, but the point was not to actually estimate anything serious, but to figure out how the heck did WJS actually get that curve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>John, of course you&#8217;re right, but the point was not to actually estimate anything serious, but to figure out how the heck did <span class="caps">WJS</span> actually get that curve.</p>
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