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	<title>Comments on: Apocrypha Now II: The Revenge of Samuel Pepys</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Cryptic Ned</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/comment-page-4/#comment-204907</link>
		<dc:creator>Cryptic Ned</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jul 2007 07:26:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/#comment-204907</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;As a native Spanish speaker I’ve never really understood why in English people add the final “y” in “Donkey Ho-tey”. Something closer to the Spanish pronounciation would be “Don Ke-HO-teh”, where the “O” is … mmh … hard for me to explain to English speakers.&lt;/i&gt;

Easy, that&#039;s because in English words don&#039;t end with the &quot;eh&quot; sound.  Not a single English word ends with that sound; it&#039;s only found between consonants.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>As a native Spanish speaker I&#8217;ve never really understood why in English people add the final &#8220;y&#8221; in &#8220;Donkey Ho-tey&#8221;. Something closer to the Spanish pronounciation would be &#8220;Don Ke-HO-teh&#8221;, where the &#8220;O&#8221; is &#8230; mmh &#8230; hard for me to explain to English speakers.</i></p>

	<p>Easy, that&#8217;s because in English words don&#8217;t end with the &#8220;eh&#8221; sound.  Not a single English word ends with that sound; it&#8217;s only found between consonants.</p>
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		<title>By: bad Jim</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/comment-page-4/#comment-204876</link>
		<dc:creator>bad Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jul 2007 08:36:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/#comment-204876</guid>
		<description>Es verdad: in Canto 1, the rhyme is introduced with &quot;new one&quot; and &quot;true one&quot;, and the rhythm of

&lt;blockquote&gt;I&#039;ll therefore take my ancient friend Don Juan&lt;/blockquote&gt;

admits no dispute. I already know I have a tin ear and a bad memory. Even so, I read the whole thing hearing &quot;Juan&quot; as a monosyllable and managed to enjoy it, for variable values of &quot;enjoy&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Es verdad: in Canto 1, the rhyme is introduced with &#8220;new one&#8221; and &#8220;true one&#8221;, and the rhythm of</p>

	<p><blockquote>I&#8217;ll therefore take my ancient friend Don Juan</blockquote></p>

	<p>admits no dispute. I already know I have a tin ear and a bad memory. Even so, I read the whole thing hearing &#8220;Juan&#8221; as a monosyllable and managed to enjoy it, for variable values of &#8220;enjoy&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: K</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/comment-page-4/#comment-204850</link>
		<dc:creator>K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2007 22:48:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/#comment-204850</guid>
		<description>A few years ago when I lived in Los Angeles a woman (dark and I presume from Mexico) on the TV news spoke English very well. Yet she usually gave nouns in Spanish. With much emphasis.

Thus one heard El Presidente, Espana, Mehico, Cuidads this or that, Estados De here and there. Holidays and dates were liable to come out either way.

I visited LA a few years later and she was using English for the same words. That seemed odd since the local majority is now Spanish speakers. 

Anyone who is embarassed about not knowing every word and how others think it should sound has an immense ego problem. No one has ever had such knowledge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>A few years ago when I lived in Los Angeles a woman (dark and I presume from Mexico) on the TV news spoke English very well. Yet she usually gave nouns in Spanish. With much emphasis.</p>

	<p>Thus one heard El Presidente, Espana, Mehico, Cuidads this or that, Estados De here and there. Holidays and dates were liable to come out either way.</p>

	<p>I visited LA a few years later and she was using English for the same words. That seemed odd since the local majority is now Spanish speakers.</p>

	<p>Anyone who is embarassed about not knowing every word and how others think it should sound has an immense ego problem. No one has ever had such knowledge.</p>
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		<title>By: Omar</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/comment-page-4/#comment-204845</link>
		<dc:creator>Omar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2007 20:56:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/#comment-204845</guid>
		<description>#86: As a native Spanish speaker I&#039;ve never really understood why in English people add the final &quot;y&quot; in &quot;Donkey Ho-tey&quot;. Something closer to the Spanish pronounciation would be &quot;Don Ke-HO-teh&quot;, where the &quot;O&quot; is ... mmh ... hard for me to explain to English speakers. In English the name of the letter &quot;O&quot; is a dipthong, the first half is what it sounds like in Spanish.

But I think your ear is right: what it sounds like in Spanish is not all that important. I think of &quot;Donkey Ho-tey&quot; as the correct name of the character in English, just as London is called Londres in Spanish or México (sounds like MEH-hee-coh) is called Mexico in English.

#106: I don&#039;t know, but I can tell you that it certainly doesn&#039;t happen in Spanish, where spelling is (nearly) phonetic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#86: As a native Spanish speaker I&#8217;ve never really understood why in English people add the final &#8220;y&#8221; in &#8220;Donkey Ho-tey&#8221;. Something closer to the Spanish pronounciation would be &#8220;Don Ke-HO-teh&#8221;, where the &#8220;O&#8221; is &#8230; mmh &#8230; hard for me to explain to English speakers. In English the name of the letter &#8220;O&#8221; is a dipthong, the first half is what it sounds like in Spanish.</p>

	<p>But I think your ear is right: what it sounds like in Spanish is not all that important. I think of &#8220;Donkey Ho-tey&#8221; as the correct name of the character in English, just as London is called Londres in Spanish or M&#233;xico (sounds like <span class="caps">MEH</span>-hee-coh) is called Mexico in English.</p>

	<p>#106: I don&#8217;t know, but I can tell you that it certainly doesn&#8217;t happen in Spanish, where spelling is (nearly) phonetic.</p>
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		<title>By: Eimear Ní Mhéalóid</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/comment-page-4/#comment-204795</link>
		<dc:creator>Eimear Ní Mhéalóid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2007 16:15:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/#comment-204795</guid>
		<description>LH, you&#039;d probably be unsurprised to know that the pronunciation of Caitlín &lt;i&gt;as Gaeilge&lt;/i&gt; is more like &quot;KOTCH-leen&quot; (or &quot;KAWTCH-leen&quot; if spelled  Cáitlín).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>LH, you&#8217;d probably be unsurprised to know that the pronunciation of Caitl&#237;n <i>as Gaeilge</i> is more like &#8220;KOTCH-leen&#8221; (or &#8220;KAWTCH-leen&#8221; if spelled  C&#225;itl&#237;n).</p>
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		<title>By: language hat</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/comment-page-4/#comment-204762</link>
		<dc:creator>language hat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2007 12:20:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/#comment-204762</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;LH, you almost sound like a prescriptivist! At least in New England Caitlin (KATE-lynn) and Kathleen are completely different names. Why would you get angry at people following local convention?&lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;m not angry at the people (who are, as you say, just following the only convention they know), I&#039;m angry at the whole situation.  Why couldn&#039;t Dylan have married a Mary or a Louise, so that Caitlin would have stayed among the people who know how to pronounce it?  Of course I sound like a prescriptivist; emotionally, I &lt;i&gt;am&lt;/i&gt; a prescriptivist, like almost everyone.  One of the points of studying linguistics is to superimpose an intellectual descriptivism on the natural human preference for what we grew up with or learned to value from Authorities.  I can&#039;t help disliking the use of &lt;i&gt;disinterested&lt;/i&gt; to mean &#039;uninterested&#039;; what I can do is to realize that my personal disapproval is intellectually irrelevant and should not be brought into a discussion of the merits of the word, any more than my personal dislike of fish should influence a discussion of the human diet.  This is a small but crucial step that most people seem to find almost impossible to take.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>LH, you almost sound like a prescriptivist! At least in New England Caitlin (KATE-lynn) and Kathleen are completely different names. Why would you get angry at people following local convention?</i></p>

	<p>I&#8217;m not angry at the people (who are, as you say, just following the only convention they know), I&#8217;m angry at the whole situation.  Why couldn&#8217;t Dylan have married a Mary or a Louise, so that Caitlin would have stayed among the people who know how to pronounce it?  Of course I sound like a prescriptivist; emotionally, I <i>am</i> a prescriptivist, like almost everyone.  One of the points of studying linguistics is to superimpose an intellectual descriptivism on the natural human preference for what we grew up with or learned to value from Authorities.  I can&#8217;t help disliking the use of <i>disinterested</i> to mean &#8216;uninterested&#8217;; what I can do is to realize that my personal disapproval is intellectually irrelevant and should not be brought into a discussion of the merits of the word, any more than my personal dislike of fish should influence a discussion of the human diet.  This is a small but crucial step that most people seem to find almost impossible to take.</p>
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		<title>By: mollymooly</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/comment-page-4/#comment-204760</link>
		<dc:creator>mollymooly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2007 11:58:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/#comment-204760</guid>
		<description>#185: I&#039;m quite pleased that Katelynn and variants seem to be replacing Caitlin.  I&#039;m not sure whether people promote Katelynn as a cute spelling or as the response to a cutesy spelling.

#186: segue is a verb, pronounced like the noun.

#187: Merriam-Webster lists trow-ma ahead of traw-ma, though American Heritage reverses that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#185: I&#8217;m quite pleased that Katelynn and variants seem to be replacing Caitlin.  I&#8217;m not sure whether people promote Katelynn as a cute spelling or as the response to a cutesy spelling.</p>

	<p>#186: segue is a verb, pronounced like the noun.</p>

	<p>#187: Merriam-Webster lists trow-ma ahead of traw-ma, though American Heritage reverses that.</p>
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		<title>By: Pepys and podcasts &#171; Mercurius Politicus</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/comment-page-4/#comment-204747</link>
		<dc:creator>Pepys and podcasts &#171; Mercurius Politicus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2007 07:19:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/#comment-204747</guid>
		<description>[...] if almost certainly apocryphal, story about a PhD student studying Samuel Pepys&#8217;s diaries mispronouncing his surname while defending her dissertation. (via the excellent [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] if almost certainly apocryphal, story about a PhD student studying Samuel Pepys&#8217;s diaries mispronouncing his surname while defending her dissertation. (via the excellent [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Zackary Sholem Berger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/comment-page-4/#comment-204731</link>
		<dc:creator>Zackary Sholem Berger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2007 01:50:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/#comment-204731</guid>
		<description>For some reason, many doctors I know (not overtly snobbish in other respects) love to pronounce certain words in ways that few non-doctors do.

E.g.:

&quot;trowma&quot; (trauma)
&quot;sahntimeter&quot; (centimeter)

This is not 100% relevant to this thread, but it&#039;s a pet peeve of mine that isn&#039;t likely to have an interested reception anywhere else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>For some reason, many doctors I know (not overtly snobbish in other respects) love to pronounce certain words in ways that few non-doctors do.</p>

	<p>E.g.:</p>

	<p>&#8220;trowma&#8221; (trauma)<br />
&#8220;sahntimeter&#8221; (centimeter)</p>

	<p>This is not 100% relevant to this thread, but it&#8217;s a pet peeve of mine that isn&#8217;t likely to have an interested reception anywhere else.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/comment-page-4/#comment-204725</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2007 01:11:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/#comment-204725</guid>
		<description>I suspect geoGRAPHy.

I&#039;ve had a few of these. One I haven&#039;t seen mentioned yet: I thought &quot;segue&quot; was a verb, and that when you segued between two things you created a &quot;segueway&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I suspect geoGRAPHy.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;ve had a few of these. One I haven&#8217;t seen mentioned yet: I thought &#8220;segue&#8221; was a verb, and that when you segued between two things you created a &#8220;segueway&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: vanya</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/comment-page-4/#comment-204684</link>
		<dc:creator>vanya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2007 19:12:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/#comment-204684</guid>
		<description>LH, you almost sound like a prescriptivist! At least in New England Caitlin (KATE-lynn) and Kathleen are completely different names.  Why would you get angry at people following local convention? I worked in an office that had one of each. Only die hard Irish nationalists are probably aware that they are from the same Irish original. Embarassingly enough, I wasn&#039;t aware of that until now.

Roy Belmont, I still have no clear idea what class you were looking forward to in the 5th grade. GeoMETry? But in the US we don&#039;t usually take that until 10th grade, if the school offers it at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>LH, you almost sound like a prescriptivist! At least in New England Caitlin (KATE-lynn) and Kathleen are completely different names.  Why would you get angry at people following local convention? I worked in an office that had one of each. Only die hard Irish nationalists are probably aware that they are from the same Irish original. Embarassingly enough, I wasn&#8217;t aware of that until now.</p>

	<p>Roy Belmont, I still have no clear idea what class you were looking forward to in the 5th grade. GeoMETry? But in the US we don&#8217;t usually take that until 10th grade, if the school offers it at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/comment-page-4/#comment-204676</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2007 18:42:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/#comment-204676</guid>
		<description>If you&#039;re among physicists and pronounce &#039;de Broglie&#039; correctly, no one will know who you&#039;re talking about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If you&#8217;re among physicists and pronounce &#8216;de Broglie&#8217; correctly, no one will know who you&#8217;re talking about.</p>
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		<title>By: Chalmondeley</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/comment-page-4/#comment-204671</link>
		<dc:creator>Chalmondeley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2007 18:36:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/#comment-204671</guid>
		<description>Forty years later, I remember the room and the face of an instructor when it dawned on me that the German writer he was talking about, &quot;Gerta,&quot; was the same guy that wrote &quot;Faust.&quot; I had been pronouncing it like an antiquated verb.  I never got the hang of umlauts either which, a couple of years later, led me to the shameless, &quot;Eine Fahrkarte nach Cologne, bitte.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Forty years later, I remember the room and the face of an instructor when it dawned on me that the German writer he was talking about, &#8220;Gerta,&#8221; was the same guy that wrote &#8220;Faust.&#8221; I had been pronouncing it like an antiquated verb.  I never got the hang of umlauts either which, a couple of years later, led me to the shameless, &#8220;Eine Fahrkarte nach Cologne, bitte.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: mollymooly</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/comment-page-4/#comment-204666</link>
		<dc:creator>mollymooly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2007 17:44:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/#comment-204666</guid>
		<description>Shut up, or I&#039;ll Nicaraguan!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Shut up, or I&#8217;ll Nicaraguan!</p>
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		<title>By: Cryptic Ned</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/comment-page-4/#comment-204651</link>
		<dc:creator>Cryptic Ned</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2007 16:47:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/16/apocrypha-now-ii-the-revenge-of-samuel-pepys/#comment-204651</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Placenames are fun: who knew that Macon, GA rhymes with ‘bacon’?&lt;/i&gt;

How else would you say it?

&lt;i&gt;I always mentally pronounced “misled” as a homophone of “mizzled”. Similarly “anxiety” had only three syllables… “anks-it-ee”.&lt;/i&gt;

Me too, but &quot;myzled&quot; and &quot;ankshety&quot; (to go with &quot;anxious&quot;.

&lt;i&gt;You-cry-EE-na”—it sounds much like the weird trend for some 80s newscasters to pronounce “Nicaragua” with an exaggerated Spanish-ish accent, which was much mocked on SNL (I think). &lt;/i&gt;

I thought the person upthread was saying that it was ridiculous for Brits to pronounce it &quot;Nicaragyouwah&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Placenames are fun: who knew that Macon, GA rhymes with &#8216;bacon&#8217;?</i></p>

	<p>How else would you say it?</p>

	<p><i>I always mentally pronounced &#8220;misled&#8221; as a homophone of &#8220;mizzled&#8221;. Similarly &#8220;anxiety&#8221; had only three syllables&#8230; &#8220;anks-it-ee&#8221;.</i></p>

	<p>Me too, but &#8220;myzled&#8221; and &#8220;ankshety&#8221; (to go with &#8220;anxious&#8221;.</p>

	<p><i>You-cry-EE-na&#8221;&#8212;it sounds much like the weird trend for some 80s newscasters to pronounce &#8220;Nicaragua&#8221; with an exaggerated Spanish-ish accent, which was much mocked on <span class="caps">SNL </span>(I think). </i></p>

	<p>I thought the person upthread was saying that it was ridiculous for Brits to pronounce it &#8220;Nicaragyouwah&#8221;.</p>
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