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	<title>Comments on: Johan Hari reviews Nick Cohen</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Glorious Godfrey</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/comment-page-2/#comment-205388</link>
		<dc:creator>Glorious Godfrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 09:56:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/#comment-205388</guid>
		<description>And Bradley, what are you talking about ? ? ? 

Silly? Do you think this is a game, don&#039;t you? Now that I&#039;m becoming convinced of the chilling, sobering reality of the ramadanogestapos? ? ? 

When Osama sends his squadrons of shariosquadristi (from the aircraft carriers he keeps in his cave) to attack the homeland again, the public will lose all patience for you appeasers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>And Bradley, what are you talking about ? ? ?</p>

	<p>Silly? Do you think this is a game, don&#8217;t you? Now that I&#8217;m becoming convinced of the chilling, sobering reality of the ramadanogestapos? ? ?</p>

	<p>When Osama sends his squadrons of shariosquadristi (from the aircraft carriers he keeps in his cave) to attack the homeland again, the public will lose all patience for you appeasers.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Glorious Godfrey</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/comment-page-2/#comment-205387</link>
		<dc:creator>Glorious Godfrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 09:51:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/#comment-205387</guid>
		<description>Zdenek, I never said this to a man and meant it:

Do you want to have my babies?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Zdenek, I never said this to a man and meant it:</p>

	<p>Do you want to have my babies?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: zdenek v</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/comment-page-2/#comment-205367</link>
		<dc:creator>zdenek v</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 05:44:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/#comment-205367</guid>
		<description>Here is my correct proof that p ( p stands for the neocon claim that some forms of political islam are fascist )

glorious godfrey and abb1 have insinuated that my thesis that p is false, on the basis of alleged counterexamples.
But these so-called &quot;counterexamples&quot; depend on construing my thesis that p in a way that it was obviously not intended---for I intended my thesis to have no counterexamples.
Therefore p. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Here is my correct proof that p ( p stands for the neocon claim that some forms of political islam are fascist )</p>

	<p>glorious godfrey and abb1 have insinuated that my thesis that p is false, on the basis of alleged counterexamples.<br />
But these so-called &#8220;counterexamples&#8221; depend on construing my thesis that p in a way that it was obviously not intended&#8212;-for I intended my thesis to have no counterexamples.<br />
Therefore p. :-)</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Bradley Kerr</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/comment-page-2/#comment-205350</link>
		<dc:creator>Bradley Kerr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 02:11:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/#comment-205350</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s more than a bit silly, but I&#039;m enjoying your wordplay, GG.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It&#8217;s more than a bit silly, but I&#8217;m enjoying your wordplay, GG.</p>
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		<title>By: Glorious Godfrey</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/comment-page-2/#comment-205342</link>
		<dc:creator>Glorious Godfrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 00:12:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/#comment-205342</guid>
		<description>On a slightly less frivolous note, and remaining true to the Glorious Godfrey tradition of obsessively hijacking threads, I´d ask Zdenek to focus on the following:

1.1) fascism had on the whole a complicated relationship to religion, that ranged from Marinetti´s early violent anti-clericalism to Codreanu´s theatrical Orthodox &quot;mysticism&quot;;

1.2) it embraced materialism, &quot;progress&quot; and technical achievement far more enthusiastically;

2.1) saracenofalangistas on the other hand, from the most puritanical and conservative to the more activist Qutb types, are unequivocal about the centrality and primacy of religion in pretty much all matters;

2.2) have in turn a complicated, ambivalent attitude towards many branches of scientific enquiry and technical activity.

Would you call this difference between actual fascists and mahometanoschutzstaffels a minor one? 

If you want we could also talk about the different takes on the notion of race of actual fascists and mohammedanoantikominterns, of course.

I mean, I think I´m coming around on this whole idea of Koranicoswastikans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>On a slightly less frivolous note, and remaining true to the Glorious Godfrey tradition of obsessively hijacking threads, I&#180;d ask Zdenek to focus on the following:</p>

	<p>1.1) fascism had on the whole a complicated relationship to religion, that ranged from Marinetti&#180;s early violent anti-clericalism to Codreanu&#180;s theatrical Orthodox &#8220;mysticism&#8221;;</p>

	<p>1.2) it embraced materialism, &#8220;progress&#8221; and technical achievement far more enthusiastically;</p>

	<p>2.1) saracenofalangistas on the other hand, from the most puritanical and conservative to the more activist Qutb types, are unequivocal about the centrality and primacy of religion in pretty much all matters;</p>

	<p>2.2) have in turn a complicated, ambivalent attitude towards many branches of scientific enquiry and technical activity.</p>

	<p>Would you call this difference between actual fascists and mahometanoschutzstaffels a minor one?</p>

	<p>If you want we could also talk about the different takes on the notion of race of actual fascists and mohammedanoantikominterns, of course.</p>

	<p>I mean, I think I&#180;m coming around on this whole idea of Koranicoswastikans.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Glorious Godfrey</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/comment-page-2/#comment-205290</link>
		<dc:creator>Glorious Godfrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jul 2007 19:17:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/#comment-205290</guid>
		<description>Another difference between islamofascism and fascism &lt;i&gt; a secas &lt;/i&gt; is that the latter is much sultrier than the former. I mean, let´s be honest, it is thoroughly repugnant, but all those jackboots, black uniforms...that´s hawt, man. Western S&amp;M was never the same after WWII. Foisting burqas on the ladies, on the other hand, is not quite so effective.

We know that:

1) Some skrulls are hot (in the tradition of the Barsoom or planet Krishna novels).

2) No islamofascists are hot.

Therefore, all skrull islamofascists have to belong to the contingent of unhot skrulls. 

GELDED UNHOT ISLAMOFASCIST EUNUCH SKRULLS ! ! !

Know thine enemy. You are known to him already.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Another difference between islamofascism and fascism <i> a secas </i> is that the latter is much sultrier than the former. I mean, let&#180;s be honest, it is thoroughly repugnant, but all those jackboots, black uniforms&#8230;that&#180;s hawt, man. Western S&#038;M was never the same after <span class="caps">WWII</span>. Foisting burqas on the ladies, on the other hand, is not quite so effective.</p>

	<p>We know that:</p>

	<p>1) Some skrulls are hot (in the tradition of the Barsoom or planet Krishna novels).</p>

	<p>2) No islamofascists are hot.</p>

	<p>Therefore, all skrull islamofascists have to belong to the contingent of unhot skrulls.</p>

	<p><span class="caps">GELDED UNHOT ISLAMOFASCIST EUNUCH SKRULLS </span>! ! !</p>

	<p>Know thine enemy. You are known to him already.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Glorious Godfrey</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/comment-page-2/#comment-205282</link>
		<dc:creator>Glorious Godfrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jul 2007 18:06:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/#comment-205282</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s an interesting line of enquiry, abb1. He could even be a &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skrull&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; skrull &lt;/a&gt;. Come to think of it...

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/wizard/005170824.cfm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; ARE THE ISLAMONAZIS SKRULLS?? &lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>That&#8217;s an interesting line of enquiry, abb1. He could even be a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skrull" rel="nofollow"> skrull </a>. Come to think of it&#8230;</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/wizard/005170824.cfm" rel="nofollow"> ARE <span class="caps">THE ISLAMONAZIS SKRULLS</span>?? </a></p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/comment-page-2/#comment-205278</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jul 2007 17:49:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/#comment-205278</guid>
		<description>Can the statement &quot;zdenek v is an islamofascist&quot; be also proven by the steps outlined in comment 66?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Can the statement &#8220;zdenek v is an islamofascist&#8221; be also proven by the steps outlined in comment 66?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: ejh</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/comment-page-2/#comment-205277</link>
		<dc:creator>ejh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jul 2007 17:41:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/#comment-205277</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;yes indeed, ejh rules the universe&lt;/i&gt;

Very kind, but I think you&#039;ll find that the cat performs that role.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>yes indeed, ejh rules the universe</i></p>

	<p>Very kind, but I think you&#8217;ll find that the cat performs that role.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Glorious Godfrey</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/comment-page-2/#comment-205276</link>
		<dc:creator>Glorious Godfrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jul 2007 17:41:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/#comment-205276</guid>
		<description>No, I don&#039;t think that anybody is interested in  making a &quot;moral relativistic critic&quot; of your position. The replies you&#039;ve been getting go rather along these lines:

1) The Taliban are islamofascists. [That&#039;s unquestionable because they are called islamofascists by the people who invented the term. I&#039;ll be generous and grant that they&#039;re muslimonazis too.]

2) There&#039;s a plethora of differences between those &quot;islamofascists&quot; and actual, historical fascists. 

3) Therefore, the term &quot;islamofascism&quot; is useless, and one should stick to terms like &quot;violent salafism&quot; or &quot;militant qutbism&quot; which, while still often conducive to oversimplifications or misunderstandings, are far less inaccurate. I&#039;m afraid those terms are less sexy than &quot;islamofascism&quot;, but life sucks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>No, I don&#8217;t think that anybody is interested in  making a &#8220;moral relativistic critic&#8221; of your position. The replies you&#8217;ve been getting go rather along these lines:</p>

	<p>1) The Taliban are islamofascists. [That&#8217;s unquestionable because they are called islamofascists by the people who invented the term. I&#8217;ll be generous and grant that they&#8217;re muslimonazis too.]</p>

	<p>2) There&#8217;s a plethora of differences between those &#8220;islamofascists&#8221; and actual, historical fascists.</p>

	<p>3) Therefore, the term &#8220;islamofascism&#8221; is useless, and one should stick to terms like &#8220;violent salafism&#8221; or &#8220;militant qutbism&#8221; which, while still often conducive to oversimplifications or misunderstandings, are far less inaccurate. I&#8217;m afraid those terms are less sexy than &#8220;islamofascism&#8221;, but life sucks.</p>
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		<title>By: zdenek v</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/comment-page-2/#comment-205275</link>
		<dc:creator>zdenek v</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jul 2007 17:26:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/#comment-205275</guid>
		<description>Here is a criticism of postmodernist challenge which tries to show that because value judgements such as &#039;Taleban are islamofascists &#039; are true only to a specific moral code they should not be made.

What this moral relativist critic of my position is proposing is that normal moral judgements such as:

1) &#039;Taleban are islamofascists&#039;

should be understood as literally false proposition that actually say:

2) &#039; relative to moral code M ,Taleban are islamofascists&#039;.

So it is not literally true that Taleban are islamofascists.

The problem with this argument is that since moral codes are *also value judgements* ( consist of moral propositions ) that are on this analysis literally false it becomes a puzzle how anyone could ever believe and be motivated to act on any moral judgements including the once that say that it is wrong to use the term &#039;islamofascist&#039;.

In other words the criticism is incoherent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Here is a criticism of postmodernist challenge which tries to show that because value judgements such as &#8216;Taleban are islamofascists &#8217; are true only to a specific moral code they should not be made.</p>

	<p>What this moral relativist critic of my position is proposing is that normal moral judgements such as:</p>

	<p>1) &#8216;Taleban are islamofascists&#8217;</p>

	<p>should be understood as literally false proposition that actually say:</p>

	<p>2) &#8217; relative to moral code M ,Taleban are islamofascists&#8217;.</p>

	<p>So it is not literally true that Taleban are islamofascists.</p>

	<p>The problem with this argument is that since moral codes are <strong>also value judgements</strong> ( consist of moral propositions ) that are on this analysis literally false it becomes a puzzle how anyone could ever believe and be motivated to act on any moral judgements including the once that say that it is wrong to use the term &#8216;islamofascist&#8217;.</p>

	<p>In other words the criticism is incoherent.</p>
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		<title>By: Glorious Godfrey</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/comment-page-2/#comment-205273</link>
		<dc:creator>Glorious Godfrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jul 2007 17:19:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/#comment-205273</guid>
		<description>Re #62: as somebody who&#039;s lived in Spain for many years and still keeps in touch with the place, I have to say that yes indeed, ejh rules the universe. That&#039;s all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Re #62: as somebody who&#8217;s lived in Spain for many years and still keeps in touch with the place, I have to say that yes indeed, ejh rules the universe. That&#8217;s all.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/comment-page-2/#comment-205272</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jul 2007 17:18:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/#comment-205272</guid>
		<description>You are telling me that you hear something that sounds like barking and therefore there must be a dog in the room. I reply that it&#039;s probably the TV.  What does this have to do with moral framework and relativism?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>You are telling me that you hear something that sounds like barking and therefore there must be a dog in the room. I reply that it&#8217;s probably the TV.  What does this have to do with moral framework and relativism?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Glorious Godfrey</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/comment-page-2/#comment-205271</link>
		<dc:creator>Glorious Godfrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jul 2007 17:17:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/#comment-205271</guid>
		<description>Hot damn, you&#039;ve posted #60 in the meantime. Moral relativism enters the fray, yay! Having a high-school-level grasp of fascism is, like, being a nihilist and an acolyte of Harman and Derrida and Barbra Streisand.

Awesome, and awesomer still.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hot damn, you&#8217;ve posted #60 in the meantime. Moral relativism enters the fray, yay! Having a high-school-level grasp of fascism is, like, being a nihilist and an acolyte of Harman and Derrida and Barbra Streisand.</p>

	<p>Awesome, and awesomer still.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: ejh</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/comment-page-2/#comment-205270</link>
		<dc:creator>ejh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jul 2007 17:14:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/24/johan-hari-reviews-nick-cohen/#comment-205270</guid>
		<description>Suggesting that the Spanish were under some sort of responsibility to vote for a party because it wished to pursue a war they&#039;d opposed is fairly typical Decent Left stuff: everybody&#039;s got to go along with their war or they lack gumption.

It also rather misses the point (as did Timothy Garton Ash) when he made the same claim) that actually, the reason they swung against Aznar because he got caught out in telling a very big lie about the Madrid bombs. He and his chums attributed it to ETA, for political reasons, when they knew very well this was not true. When they were found out, the Spanish electorate threw them out - not because they approved of ETA or were scared of Al-Qaeda, but because they thought bombings causing large numbers of deaths were a serious matter and not to be pissed about with or lied about for political advantage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Suggesting that the Spanish were under some sort of responsibility to vote for a party because it wished to pursue a war they&#8217;d opposed is fairly typical Decent Left stuff: everybody&#8217;s got to go along with their war or they lack gumption.</p>

	<p>It also rather misses the point (as did Timothy Garton Ash) when he made the same claim) that actually, the reason they swung against Aznar because he got caught out in telling a very big lie about the Madrid bombs. He and his chums attributed it to <span class="caps">ETA</span>, for political reasons, when they knew very well this was not true. When they were found out, the Spanish electorate threw them out &#8211; not because they approved of <span class="caps">ETA</span> or were scared of Al-Qaeda, but because they thought bombings causing large numbers of deaths were a serious matter and not to be pissed about with or lied about for political advantage.</p>
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