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	<title>Comments on: Illegal Inheritance</title>
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	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: BCist</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/25/illegal-inheritance/comment-page-2/#comment-205900</link>
		<dc:creator>BCist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2007 02:58:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/25/illegal-inheritance/#comment-205900</guid>
		<description>e) or c)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>e) or c)</p>
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		<title>By: hallam</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/25/illegal-inheritance/comment-page-2/#comment-205765</link>
		<dc:creator>hallam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jul 2007 02:36:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think you are all missing the point that the illegal programs could easily be brought under legal control. The objection is not to the wire taps, it is to performing wire taps without legal authority to do so.

An incomming Democratic President might well prefer to let the matter rest, the wire taps are far from the most eggregious criminal act the administration has committed. If they were to go after anything it would be the torture. But I don&#039;t think that Bush/Cheney will give them that choice.

I expect that Bush will attempt to pardon most of the criminal behavior. The act of issuing a pardon will itself generate the political imperative to find something to prosecute them for. The Bushies are sloppy and incompetent, I don&#039;t think that they have the remotest chance of granting a pardon that covers all their crimes. 

In particular a pardon cannot cover future crimes, the constitution uses the past tense, the President has no authority to pardon ongoing or future crimes. The ongoing wiretap programs will thus fall outside the scope of the pardon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think you are all missing the point that the illegal programs could easily be brought under legal control. The objection is not to the wire taps, it is to performing wire taps without legal authority to do so.</p>

	<p>An incomming Democratic President might well prefer to let the matter rest, the wire taps are far from the most eggregious criminal act the administration has committed. If they were to go after anything it would be the torture. But I don&#8217;t think that Bush/Cheney will give them that choice.</p>

	<p>I expect that Bush will attempt to pardon most of the criminal behavior. The act of issuing a pardon will itself generate the political imperative to find something to prosecute them for. The Bushies are sloppy and incompetent, I don&#8217;t think that they have the remotest chance of granting a pardon that covers all their crimes.</p>

	<p>In particular a pardon cannot cover future crimes, the constitution uses the past tense, the President has no authority to pardon ongoing or future crimes. The ongoing wiretap programs will thus fall outside the scope of the pardon.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/25/illegal-inheritance/comment-page-2/#comment-205654</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jul 2007 05:10:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/25/illegal-inheritance/#comment-205654</guid>
		<description>G. 

I am expecting the administration to cook up some &quot;emergency&quot; in order to cancel the 2008 elections. Something that people fear and don&#039;t understand, like, oh, H5N1, and how to &quot;protect&quot; the public, there will have to be huge quarantines that will last weeks and months. So then bush, or more likely cheney, becomes &quot;president for life&quot; as some mocking merger of banana republic and pro-life rhetoric.   

When the so-called &quot;patriot&quot; act was being debated, some anthrax letters got mailed to targets in the US. If you read the book &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/Amerithrax-Anthrax-Killer-Robert-Graysmith/dp/0425191907/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Amerithrax&lt;/a&gt;, you&#039;d come to the conclusion that the perpetrators were right wingers. What politicians got sent these letters? Only democrats. What politicians didn&#039;t get anthrax letters? Republicans (and no anthrax tainted letter was ever sent to the whitehouse). Pearle stated that folks in the whitehouse were taking Cipro starting 9/12. American military anthrax could be treated with Cipro, Soviet military anthrax (which is what Saddam&#039;s folks would have been trained to make) cannot be treated with any antibiotic. What newspapers got sent anthrax letters? NY Times (of which Ann Coulter said &quot;the only thing McVeigh did wrong was that he didn&#039;t go to the NY Times building&quot;), the NY Post (who reported the Coulter quote) and the National Enquirer. Only the NYTimes has any distribution outside the US. What newspapers didn&#039;t get anthrax? WSJ, USA Today and International Herald Tribune (who have distribution outside the US). What TV networks got anthrax? NBC. What TV networks didn&#039;t get anthrax? Fox, CNN, or anything with viewers outside the US. 

We&#039;ve been down this road before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>G.</p>

	<p>I am expecting the administration to cook up some &#8220;emergency&#8221; in order to cancel the 2008 elections. Something that people fear and don&#8217;t understand, like, oh, <span class="caps">H5N1</span>, and how to &#8220;protect&#8221; the public, there will have to be huge quarantines that will last weeks and months. So then bush, or more likely cheney, becomes &#8220;president for life&#8221; as some mocking merger of banana republic and pro-life rhetoric.</p>

	<p>When the so-called &#8220;patriot&#8221; act was being debated, some anthrax letters got mailed to targets in the US. If you read the book <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Amerithrax-Anthrax-Killer-Robert-Graysmith/dp/0425191907/" rel="nofollow">Amerithrax</a>, you&#8217;d come to the conclusion that the perpetrators were right wingers. What politicians got sent these letters? Only democrats. What politicians didn&#8217;t get anthrax letters? Republicans (and no anthrax tainted letter was ever sent to the whitehouse). Pearle stated that folks in the whitehouse were taking Cipro starting 9/12. American military anthrax could be treated with Cipro, Soviet military anthrax (which is what Saddam&#8217;s folks would have been trained to make) cannot be treated with any antibiotic. What newspapers got sent anthrax letters? <span class="caps">NY </span>Times (of which Ann Coulter said &#8220;the only thing McVeigh did wrong was that he didn&#8217;t go to the <span class="caps">NY </span>Times building&#8221;), the <span class="caps">NY </span>Post (who reported the Coulter quote) and the National Enquirer. Only the NYTimes has any distribution outside the US. What newspapers didn&#8217;t get anthrax? <span class="caps">WSJ</span>, USA Today and International Herald Tribune (who have distribution outside the US). What TV networks got anthrax? <span class="caps">NBC</span>. What TV networks didn&#8217;t get anthrax? Fox, <span class="caps">CNN</span>, or anything with viewers outside the US.</p>

	<p>We&#8217;ve been down this road before.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/25/illegal-inheritance/comment-page-2/#comment-205540</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2007 12:27:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/25/illegal-inheritance/#comment-205540</guid>
		<description>SamChevre, you left off a few things - a couple of wars, deliberately botching a couple of warslots and lots of torture, and attempts to aggregate power to the executive which were literally unthinkable during the Clinton years.

And you can shove the National Review where the sun don&#039;t shine - they couldn&#039;t tell the truth to save their souls.  Heck, they&#039;re still printing Iraq war supporters, which at this late stage is proof positive that they stone cold liars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>SamChevre, you left off a few things &#8211; a couple of wars, deliberately botching a couple of warslots and lots of torture, and attempts to aggregate power to the executive which were literally unthinkable during the Clinton years.</p>

	<p>And you can shove the National Review where the sun don&#8217;t shine &#8211; they couldn&#8217;t tell the truth to save their souls.  Heck, they&#8217;re still printing Iraq war supporters, which at this late stage is proof positive that they stone cold liars.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Bento</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/25/illegal-inheritance/comment-page-2/#comment-205525</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Bento</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:45:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/25/illegal-inheritance/#comment-205525</guid>
		<description>Katherine, neither Clinton, Obama, Dodd, nor Biden would vote to censure Bush over it. Rhetoric is cheap. As I said, they expand FISA or otherwise make it legal, so they won&#039;t be doing illegal wiretapping. But the activity itself will not stop. In fact, most of the statements you cite criticize only the circumvention of the legal process, not the activity itself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Katherine, neither Clinton, Obama, Dodd, nor Biden would vote to censure Bush over it. Rhetoric is cheap. As I said, they expand <span class="caps">FISA</span> or otherwise make it legal, so they won&#8217;t be doing illegal wiretapping. But the activity itself will not stop. In fact, most of the statements you cite criticize only the circumvention of the legal process, not the activity itself.</p>
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		<title>By: Katherine</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/25/illegal-inheritance/comment-page-2/#comment-205515</link>
		<dc:creator>Katherine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2007 04:15:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/25/illegal-inheritance/#comment-205515</guid>
		<description>(I can imagine a democratic president trying to revise FISA. But that&#039;s not the same as endorsing Yoo&#039;s theories.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>(I can imagine a democratic president trying to revise <span class="caps">FISA</span>. But that&#8217;s not the same as endorsing Yoo&#8217;s theories.)</p>
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		<title>By: Katherine</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/25/illegal-inheritance/comment-page-2/#comment-205513</link>
		<dc:creator>Katherine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2007 04:13:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/25/illegal-inheritance/#comment-205513</guid>
		<description>C.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cfr.org/publication/13693/candidates_on_domestic_intelligence.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Actual statements&lt;/a&gt; on the issue. Several of them have said explicitly that it is illegal. No one saying they will continue has cited anything resembling evidence. 

They can&#039;t just continue it--they&#039;ve got to appoint an Attorney General &amp; head of OLC that will tell them it&#039;s legal. I am having a hard time coming up with a plausible liberal Democrat for those positions who would endorse the theory that the President is not actually bound by any laws in wartime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>C.</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.cfr.org/publication/13693/candidates_on_domestic_intelligence.html" rel="nofollow">Actual statements</a> on the issue. Several of them have said explicitly that it is illegal. No one saying they will continue has cited anything resembling evidence.</p>

	<p>They can&#8217;t just continue it&#8212;they&#8217;ve got to appoint an Attorney General &#038; head of <span class="caps">OLC</span> that will tell them it&#8217;s legal. I am having a hard time coming up with a plausible liberal Democrat for those positions who would endorse the theory that the President is not actually bound by any laws in wartime.</p>
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		<title>By: agum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/25/illegal-inheritance/comment-page-2/#comment-205502</link>
		<dc:creator>agum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2007 02:50:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/25/illegal-inheritance/#comment-205502</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s also option M (for Milhous): 

The illegal wiretaps are used by Karl Rove and Republican sympathizers in the NSA to discredit the Democratic nominee, Edmund Muskie style.

Then (since we&#039;re presuming that they fail) I guess (f) would have to follow.

Except Bush will have pardoned the higher-ups, so a bunch of low level right wing spooks end up rotting in jail for a while, converting to fundyism, and getting talk shows (or whatever the Web 3.0 equivalent is) upon release.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There&#8217;s also option M (for Milhous):</p>

	<p>The illegal wiretaps are used by Karl Rove and Republican sympathizers in the <span class="caps">NSA</span> to discredit the Democratic nominee, Edmund Muskie style.</p>

	<p>Then (since we&#8217;re presuming that they fail) I guess (f) would have to follow.</p>

	<p>Except Bush will have pardoned the higher-ups, so a bunch of low level right wing spooks end up rotting in jail for a while, converting to fundyism, and getting talk shows (or whatever the Web 3.0 equivalent is) upon release.</p>
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		<title>By: SamChevre</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/25/illegal-inheritance/comment-page-2/#comment-205479</link>
		<dc:creator>SamChevre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 22:00:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/25/illegal-inheritance/#comment-205479</guid>
		<description>Alan--I was going for symmetry, not completeness.  (First 2 and last 2 of the current political era.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Alan&#8212;I was going for symmetry, not completeness.  (First 2 and last 2 of the current political era.)</p>
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		<title>By: LarryM</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/25/illegal-inheritance/comment-page-1/#comment-205476</link>
		<dc:creator>LarryM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 21:45:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/25/illegal-inheritance/#comment-205476</guid>
		<description>There are another couple of options, both involving continuing the CURRENT program, while disavowing the prior program which was so clearly illegal that dozens of people from DOJ were apparently willing to resign over it. That disavowal could include prosecutions, but wouldn&#039;t have to.

Now I&#039;m certainly not ADVOCATING this option - I&#039;m STRONGLY in favor of your option f - but I do tend to think it&#039;s the most likely (probably without the prosecutions).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There are another couple of options, both involving continuing the <span class="caps">CURRENT</span> program, while disavowing the prior program which was so clearly illegal that dozens of people from <span class="caps">DOJ</span> were apparently willing to resign over it. That disavowal could include prosecutions, but wouldn&#8217;t have to.</p>

	<p>Now I&#8217;m certainly not <span class="caps">ADVOCATING</span> this option &#8211; I&#8217;m <span class="caps">STRONGLY</span> in favor of your option f &#8211; but I do tend to think it&#8217;s the most likely (probably without the prosecutions).</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Bostick</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/25/illegal-inheritance/comment-page-1/#comment-205473</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Bostick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 21:12:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/25/illegal-inheritance/#comment-205473</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;What about my statements makes me a hypocrite? I don’t trust the government; it was intrusive and powerhungry and abusive under LBJ, under Nixon, under Clinton, under Bush….&lt;/i&gt;

You forgot &lt;strike&gt;Poland&lt;/strike&gt; Reagan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>What about my statements makes me a hypocrite? I don&#8217;t trust the government; it was intrusive and powerhungry and abusive under <span class="caps">LBJ</span>, under Nixon, under Clinton, under Bush&#8230;.</i></p>

	<p>You forgot <strike>Poland</strike> Reagan.</p>
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		<title>By: SamChevre</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/25/illegal-inheritance/comment-page-1/#comment-205469</link>
		<dc:creator>SamChevre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 20:51:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/25/illegal-inheritance/#comment-205469</guid>
		<description>barry,

Ok, comparing non-war-related policies from Clinton to those from Bush II, I&#039;ll bite.  (If you include war-related, you need to compare to LBJ.)

Both practiced extraordinary rendition.
Both increased the harshness of the War on (some) Drugs.
Both used warrantless wiretaps.
Both used supposed-to-be-private info to discredit political enemies.  (FBI files, Valerie Wilson)
Both attempted to use the regulatory process to reward friends and punish enemies.  (Power plant maintenance/upgrade issue, Klamath Dam issue).

I&#039;ll leave it at this: you are clearly not involved in the gun-related civil rights issues.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel200401270928.asp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;List of some illegal anti-gun actions by the Clinton administration&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>barry,</p>

	<p>Ok, comparing non-war-related policies from Clinton to those from Bush II, I&#8217;ll bite.  (If you include war-related, you need to compare to <span class="caps">LBJ</span>.)</p>

	<p>Both practiced extraordinary rendition.<br />
Both increased the harshness of the War on (some) Drugs.<br />
Both used warrantless wiretaps.<br />
Both used supposed-to-be-private info to discredit political enemies.  (FBI files, Valerie Wilson)<br />
Both attempted to use the regulatory process to reward friends and punish enemies.  (Power plant maintenance/upgrade issue, Klamath Dam issue).</p>

	<p>I&#8217;ll leave it at this: you are clearly not involved in the gun-related civil rights issues.</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel200401270928.asp" rel="nofollow">List of some illegal anti-gun actions by the Clinton administration</a></p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/25/illegal-inheritance/comment-page-1/#comment-205464</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 20:11:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/25/illegal-inheritance/#comment-205464</guid>
		<description>Samchevre, if you can&#039;t see the difference between Nixon/Bush II, and Clinton, then there&#039;s really no point in discussing this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Samchevre, if you can&#8217;t see the difference between Nixon/Bush II, and Clinton, then there&#8217;s really no point in discussing this.</p>
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		<title>By: SamChevre</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/25/illegal-inheritance/comment-page-1/#comment-205454</link>
		<dc:creator>SamChevre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 19:23:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/25/illegal-inheritance/#comment-205454</guid>
		<description>What about my statements makes me a hypocrite?  I don&#039;t trust the government; it was intrusive and powerhungry and abusive under LBJ, under Nixon, under Clinton, under Bush....and I see no reason to think it will change under any plausible President in 2009</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What about my statements makes me a hypocrite?  I don&#8217;t trust the government; it was intrusive and powerhungry and abusive under <span class="caps">LBJ</span>, under Nixon, under Clinton, under Bush&#8230;.and I see no reason to think it will change under any plausible President in 2009</p>
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		<title>By: mds</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/25/illegal-inheritance/comment-page-1/#comment-205452</link>
		<dc:creator>mds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 19:16:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/25/illegal-inheritance/#comment-205452</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;d. the new administration will say that they are stopping them, but actually continue them;&lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;d second rilkefan in going with a modified version of this one, to wit: the new administration will continue wiretapping, but comply with FISA while doing so.  Since FISA warrants were traditionally easy to get, and were issued retroactively by a secret court, any sane domestic wiretapping program could proceed under its auspices.  I think FISA itself is bad from a civil liberties point of view (and indeed the stinking hypocrites of samchevre&#039;s ilk were shrieking about how evil it was when the Clenis was in office), but it&#039;s practically Utopian compared to flouting federal laws when one is Constitutionally mandated that they be faithfully executed.  Or compared to ignoring legal subpoenas, for that matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>d. the new administration will say that they are stopping them, but actually continue them;</i></p>

	<p>I&#8217;d second rilkefan in going with a modified version of this one, to wit: the new administration will continue wiretapping, but comply with <span class="caps">FISA</span> while doing so.  Since <span class="caps">FISA</span> warrants were traditionally easy to get, and were issued retroactively by a secret court, any sane domestic wiretapping program could proceed under its auspices.  I think <span class="caps">FISA</span> itself is bad from a civil liberties point of view (and indeed the stinking hypocrites of samchevre&#8217;s ilk were shrieking about how evil it was when the Clenis was in office), but it&#8217;s practically Utopian compared to flouting federal laws when one is Constitutionally mandated that they be faithfully executed.  Or compared to ignoring legal subpoenas, for that matter.</p>
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