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	<title>Comments on: Nielsening Haydens and Haydening Nielsens</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 05:39:10 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: praisegod barebones</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/comment-page-2/#comment-206027</link>
		<dc:creator>praisegod barebones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 17:06:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/#comment-206027</guid>
		<description>&#039;Oh…and there’s also a (fairly racist) joke about French immigrants giving their children the name Fetnat (for Fete Nationale) beacuse they’ve been told the rule about saints days (French calendars have a saint on them for every day of the year except July 14th).

Maybe used in racist circles as a joke, but the practice did exist. I’ve know at least two Fetnat, one being my cousin.&#039;

Many apologies then: it looks as though I&#039;ve been misinformed. I&#039;ve only second-hand evidence that it was a racist joke (not moving in racist circles myself).

Is it a boy&#039;s name or a girl&#039;s name. Or - like Deniz, in Turkey - both?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8216;Oh&#8230;and there&#8217;s also a (fairly racist) joke about French immigrants giving their children the name Fetnat (for Fete Nationale) beacuse they&#8217;ve been told the rule about saints days (French calendars have a saint on them for every day of the year except July 14th).</p>

	<p>Maybe used in racist circles as a joke, but the practice did exist. I&#8217;ve know at least two Fetnat, one being my cousin.&#8217;</p>

	<p>Many apologies then: it looks as though I&#8217;ve been misinformed. I&#8217;ve only second-hand evidence that it was a racist joke (not moving in racist circles myself).</p>

	<p>Is it a boy&#8217;s name or a girl&#8217;s name. Or &#8211; like Deniz, in Turkey &#8211; both?</p>
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		<title>By: Helen</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/comment-page-2/#comment-205893</link>
		<dc:creator>Helen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2007 01:26:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/#comment-205893</guid>
		<description>Then &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=54021&amp;in_page_id=34&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;there&#039;s the Kiwis&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Then <a href="http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=54021&#038;in_page_id=34" rel="nofollow">there&#8217;s the Kiwis</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: garymar</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/comment-page-1/#comment-205720</link>
		<dc:creator>garymar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jul 2007 19:25:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/#comment-205720</guid>
		<description>sg -- thanks for the update, I haven&#039;t lived there for 11 years. I imagine the Australians and Brits only need an interview, because they drive on the &lt;i&gt;wrong&lt;/i&gt; i.e. left side of the road, just like the Japanese.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>sg&#8212;thanks for the update, I haven&#8217;t lived there for 11 years. I imagine the Australians and Brits only need an interview, because they drive on the <i>wrong</i> i.e. left side of the road, just like the Japanese.</p>
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		<title>By: ed</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/comment-page-1/#comment-205682</link>
		<dc:creator>ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jul 2007 14:45:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/#comment-205682</guid>
		<description>The most interesting part of this post was buried:

&quot;But divorce is extremely easy in Japan (you basically have to fill out a form to inform local officialdom and that’s it)&quot;

What!?!  Why can&#039;t we do that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The most interesting part of this post was buried:</p>

	<p>&#8220;But divorce is extremely easy in Japan (you basically have to fill out a form to inform local officialdom and that&#8217;s it)&#8221;</p>

	<p>What<img src="?" alt="" border="0" />  Why can&#8217;t we do that?</p>
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		<title>By: Stentor</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/comment-page-1/#comment-205659</link>
		<dc:creator>Stentor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jul 2007 06:51:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/#comment-205659</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;does anyone remember an individual called ‘perri 6’ who used to be active on the left(ish) of British politics.&lt;/i&gt;

Mr. 6 is still around. He even has a &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perri_6&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Wikipedia page&lt;/a&gt;. My own research intersects somewhat with his, and I&#039;m always tempted to err on the side of including references to his work just so I can have &quot;6, P.&quot; at the top of my bibliography.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>does anyone remember an individual called &#8216;perri 6&#8217; who used to be active on the left(ish) of British politics.</i></p>

	<p>Mr. 6 is still around. He even has a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perri_6" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia page</a>. My own research intersects somewhat with his, and I&#8217;m always tempted to err on the side of including references to his work just so I can have &#8220;6, P.&#8221; at the top of my bibliography.</p>
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		<title>By: Toru Ranryu</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/comment-page-1/#comment-205658</link>
		<dc:creator>Toru Ranryu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jul 2007 06:42:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/#comment-205658</guid>
		<description>For the record, I&#039;m not Japanese but Swedish. I&#039;m glad that my comments has spurred some interesting discussion here too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>For the record, I&#8217;m not Japanese but Swedish. I&#8217;m glad that my comments has spurred some interesting discussion here too.</p>
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		<title>By: SG</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/comment-page-1/#comment-205637</link>
		<dc:creator>SG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jul 2007 01:52:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/#comment-205637</guid>
		<description>garymar, I would like to clarify that that system no longer holds. Now Americans have to do a set of lessons. Australians, Britons etc. have merely to sit an interview.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>garymar, I would like to clarify that that system no longer holds. Now Americans have to do a set of lessons. Australians, Britons etc. have merely to sit an interview.</p>
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		<title>By: MD²</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/comment-page-1/#comment-205636</link>
		<dc:creator>MD²</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jul 2007 01:47:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/#comment-205636</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Oh…and there’s also a (fairly racist) joke about French immigrants giving their children the name Fetnat (for Fete Nationale) beacuse they’ve been told the rule about saints days (French calendars have a saint on them for every day of the year except July 14th).&lt;/i&gt;

Maybe used in racist circles as a joke, but the practice did exist. I&#039;ve know at least two Fetnat, one being my cousin.

Onomastics in France have evolved quite a bit in recent years. Not enough that a couple was allowed to name their daughter Téléphérique as wished, but I&#039;ve known quite a number of Gwenaëlle (and Anaël, etc...), one Nanami (absolutely &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; japanese must I say) and I&#039;ve known a (idiot IMHO) couple (both teachers) who named their kids Aristote and Périclès (I kid you not... poor kids). Not to speak of numerous variation and bastardisations of foreign names of second generation immigrants.
The &quot;in&quot; names in lower middle-class in the last ten years seems to come from American sitcoms and tv shows (Kevin, Brendan, Dylan etc).

What I find fascinating with Toru Ranryu&#039;s comment is how much it fails to acknoledge a part of Japans&#039;s history; just think of Middle-Age (and I&#039;m not talking the higher class Heian hell, anyone who tried to read the Genji will understand)practices: one name up till seven, another till you&#039;re an adult, yet another when you become a monk, another used solely for when dealing in confuscianist circles, one for your buddhist death... Names used to be anything but static in Japan, and still are quite flexibles in some respects.

&lt;i&gt;For example, it is much more common for the wife to take the husbands name, but in certain situations the husband will take the wifes surname.&lt;/i&gt;

Practice often used also if the wife&#039;s name is prestigious and/or if her familly has no male heir.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Oh&#8230;and there&#8217;s also a (fairly racist) joke about French immigrants giving their children the name Fetnat (for Fete Nationale) beacuse they&#8217;ve been told the rule about saints days (French calendars have a saint on them for every day of the year except July 14th).</i></p>

	<p>Maybe used in racist circles as a joke, but the practice did exist. I&#8217;ve know at least two Fetnat, one being my cousin.</p>

	<p>Onomastics in France have evolved quite a bit in recent years. Not enough that a couple was allowed to name their daughter T&#233;l&#233;ph&#233;rique as wished, but I&#8217;ve known quite a number of Gwena&#235;lle (and Ana&#235;l, etc&#8230;), one Nanami (absolutely <i>not</i> japanese must I say) and I&#8217;ve known a (idiot <span class="caps">IMHO</span>) couple (both teachers) who named their kids Aristote and P&#233;ricl&#232;s (I kid you not&#8230; poor kids). Not to speak of numerous variation and bastardisations of foreign names of second generation immigrants.<br />
The &#8220;in&#8221; names in lower middle-class in the last ten years seems to come from American sitcoms and tv shows (Kevin, Brendan, Dylan etc).</p>

	<p>What I find fascinating with Toru Ranryu&#8217;s comment is how much it fails to acknoledge a part of Japans&#8217;s history; just think of Middle-Age (and I&#8217;m not talking the higher class Heian hell, anyone who tried to read the Genji will understand)practices: one name up till seven, another till you&#8217;re an adult, yet another when you become a monk, another used solely for when dealing in confuscianist circles, one for your buddhist death&#8230; Names used to be anything but static in Japan, and still are quite flexibles in some respects.</p>

	<p><i>For example, it is much more common for the wife to take the husbands name, but in certain situations the husband will take the wifes surname.</i></p>

	<p>Practice often used also if the wife&#8217;s name is prestigious and/or if her familly has no male heir.</p>
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		<title>By: omicron</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/comment-page-1/#comment-205603</link>
		<dc:creator>omicron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2007 18:08:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/#comment-205603</guid>
		<description>A further note on the Japanese surnames issue. It is correct that a married couple must have the same last name because their tax system is built around this principle in certain ways (need to find a citation). For example, it is much more common for the wife to take the husbands name, but in certain situations the husband will take the wifes surname. This is actually used as a way of tax and debt evasion because when your name is changed debts cannot &quot;stick&quot; to you, hence some men take the wifes  surname to avoid debt or in some cases criminal records. It&#039;s seen as a rather  deplorable thing to do, and I&#039;m not sure if that was still the case, but I learned all this when I was researching a Japanese television show I was interested in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>A further note on the Japanese surnames issue. It is correct that a married couple must have the same last name because their tax system is built around this principle in certain ways (need to find a citation). For example, it is much more common for the wife to take the husbands name, but in certain situations the husband will take the wifes surname. This is actually used as a way of tax and debt evasion because when your name is changed debts cannot &#8220;stick&#8221; to you, hence some men take the wifes  surname to avoid debt or in some cases criminal records. It&#8217;s seen as a rather  deplorable thing to do, and I&#8217;m not sure if that was still the case, but I learned all this when I was researching a Japanese television show I was interested in.</p>
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		<title>By: garymar</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/comment-page-1/#comment-205590</link>
		<dc:creator>garymar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:03:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/#comment-205590</guid>
		<description>ditto on #8 and #23 and #26.  My brother got divorced in Japan and all it takes is a quick trip to city hall or the ward office. The Japanese use social pressure instead of legal procedures to preserve marriages, and they work extremely well -- too well, probably.

It&#039;s hard to see this as an urban legend, it &lt;i&gt;sounds&lt;/i&gt; very probable. Here&#039;s a similar one:

Getting a driver&#039;s license in Japan can take the equivalent of thousands of dollars in lessons at approved driving courses, and people often fail the test. The system is set up to &lt;i&gt;discourage&lt;/i&gt; driving, after all. 

But the Japanese government quite freely awards licenses to those with valid foreign licenses, especially American licenses. I guess they figure people get plenty of experience driving in the US. I showed my US license and got a Japanese license without a written or a road test.

So during the 70&#039;s, some Japanese got the idea of taking up a brief residence in the US, getting the US license while there, and returning to Japan to exchange it for a Japanese license. The total cost of the trip was still below the cost of obtaining the license at home, plus you get a vacation and you didn&#039;t spend months at the driver&#039;s range. A lot of college students did this because they had the time for it.

But eventually, when this move got too popular, the government changed the rules and closed the loophole.

So, the prevalence of this kind of jiujitsu performed on the legal system makes me think there&#039;s something behind marriage/ divorce story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>ditto on #8 and #23 and #26.  My brother got divorced in Japan and all it takes is a quick trip to city hall or the ward office. The Japanese use social pressure instead of legal procedures to preserve marriages, and they work extremely well&#8212;too well, probably.</p>

	<p>It&#8217;s hard to see this as an urban legend, it <i>sounds</i> very probable. Here&#8217;s a similar one:</p>

	<p>Getting a driver&#8217;s license in Japan can take the equivalent of thousands of dollars in lessons at approved driving courses, and people often fail the test. The system is set up to <i>discourage</i> driving, after all.</p>

	<p>But the Japanese government quite freely awards licenses to those with valid foreign licenses, especially American licenses. I guess they figure people get plenty of experience driving in the US. I showed my US license and got a Japanese license without a written or a road test.</p>

	<p>So during the 70&#8217;s, some Japanese got the idea of taking up a brief residence in the US, getting the US license while there, and returning to Japan to exchange it for a Japanese license. The total cost of the trip was still below the cost of obtaining the license at home, plus you get a vacation and you didn&#8217;t spend months at the driver&#8217;s range. A lot of college students did this because they had the time for it.</p>

	<p>But eventually, when this move got too popular, the government changed the rules and closed the loophole.</p>

	<p>So, the prevalence of this kind of jiujitsu performed on the legal system makes me think there&#8217;s something behind marriage/ divorce story.</p>
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		<title>By: greensmile</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/comment-page-1/#comment-205544</link>
		<dc:creator>greensmile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2007 12:55:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/#comment-205544</guid>
		<description>name
I
self identity

People with sufficient level of ego and intelligence CAN, if culturally liberated to do so, consider binding a name to their personality by which they feel they are saying something about themselves [status, origins, interests...] and thus leap over the first step or two of acquainting themselves with others or otherwise connecting.  There is a vibrant branch of this human capacity on display via spray paint on many walls  in NYC and in the many monikers by which bloggers post.

And not being who you &quot;really&quot; are for the nonce has its own uses on the other hand.

Cattle get a barcode or an ear tag.  

We are born with a history, perhaps a station in life but we all have a choice to forge an identity for ourselves and the name is a precious token of that identity if you can forge it as well.  The comment of Toru Ranryu betrays a terrible need for  stasis of role in society.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>name<br />
I</p>
	<p>self identity</p>

	<p>People with sufficient level of ego and intelligence <span class="caps">CAN</span>, if culturally liberated to do so, consider binding a name to their personality by which they feel they are saying something about themselves [status, origins, interests&#8230;] and thus leap over the first step or two of acquainting themselves with others or otherwise connecting.  There is a vibrant branch of this human capacity on display via spray paint on many walls  in <span class="caps">NYC</span> and in the many monikers by which bloggers post.</p>

	<p>And not being who you &#8220;really&#8221; are for the nonce has its own uses on the other hand.</p>

	<p>Cattle get a barcode or an ear tag.</p>

	<p>We are born with a history, perhaps a station in life but we all have a choice to forge an identity for ourselves and the name is a precious token of that identity if you can forge it as well.  The comment of Toru Ranryu betrays a terrible need for  stasis of role in society.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/comment-page-1/#comment-205539</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2007 12:17:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/#comment-205539</guid>
		<description>Richard:  &quot;IIRC Prince (now restored) adopted the symbol in order to evade clauses in a record contract that was binding on Prince-or-the-same-artist-under-any-other-name he might assume: the idea being that the symbol was not a name.&quot;

The way that I heard it was that he found out that internet searches for [symbol] weren&#039;t doable, so he was losing publicity.

I wouldn&#039;t be surprised if it was just a whole load of problems that triggered the &#039;unsymboling&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Richard:  &#8220;IIRC Prince (now restored) adopted the symbol in order to evade clauses in a record contract that was binding on Prince-or-the-same-artist-under-any-other-name he might assume: the idea being that the symbol was not a name.&#8221;</p>

	<p>The way that I heard it was that he found out that internet searches for [symbol] weren&#8217;t doable, so he was losing publicity.</p>

	<p>I wouldn&#8217;t be surprised if it was just a whole load of problems that triggered the &#8216;unsymboling&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Suvi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/comment-page-1/#comment-205535</link>
		<dc:creator>Suvi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:52:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/#comment-205535</guid>
		<description>#3 &quot;What about the German law that you cannot give a child an undignified name?&quot;

It&#039;s true, you can&#039;t. You aren&#039;t allowed to invent names, either.

German registrars have a list of approved names, and if the name you want to give isn&#039;t on it, you can&#039;t give your child that name (unless you can prove that it is a known and accepted name in some other part of the world).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#3 &#8220;What about the German law that you cannot give a child an undignified name?&#8221;</p>

	<p>It&#8217;s true, you can&#8217;t. You aren&#8217;t allowed to invent names, either.</p>

	<p>German registrars have a list of approved names, and if the name you want to give isn&#8217;t on it, you can&#8217;t give your child that name (unless you can prove that it is a known and accepted name in some other part of the world).</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/comment-page-1/#comment-205534</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:23:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/#comment-205534</guid>
		<description>My dear Soizick nearly fell foul of the register of French names; her parents successfully hacked the rules by appending a regulation moniker for official consumption. I&#039;m forbidden to mention it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>My dear Soizick nearly fell foul of the register of French names; her parents successfully hacked the rules by appending a regulation moniker for official consumption. I&#8217;m forbidden to mention it.</p>
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		<title>By: Eimear Ní Mhéalóid</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/comment-page-1/#comment-205532</link>
		<dc:creator>Eimear Ní Mhéalóid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:57:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/07/26/names-and-divorces/#comment-205532</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s a story in Edward MacLysaght&#039;s memoirs (former Chief Herald of Ireland and general expert on Irish surnames) about how he advised a poor family that they didn&#039;t need go to the expense of having a deed poll* drawn up and registered to have the eldest son&#039;s surname changed.  He was born before Mr. X and Miss Y. got married and his birth cert. read John Y.  They just needed to do some kind of affidavit that he had always been known as John X.  

*Technically a deed poll is just a deed that only has one party to it, the opposite of an indenture (both names refer to the way they used to trim the parchment), but the term is used almost universally for these name change deeds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There&#8217;s a story in Edward MacLysaght&#8217;s memoirs (former Chief Herald of Ireland and general expert on Irish surnames) about how he advised a poor family that they didn&#8217;t need go to the expense of having a deed poll* drawn up and registered to have the eldest son&#8217;s surname changed.  He was born before Mr. X and Miss Y. got married and his birth cert. read John Y.  They just needed to do some kind of affidavit that he had always been known as John X.</p>

	<p>*Technically a deed poll is just a deed that only has one party to it, the opposite of an indenture (both names refer to the way they used to trim the parchment), but the term is used almost universally for these name change deeds.</p>
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