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	<title>Comments on: Pixels and Pies</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Oskar Shapley</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/comment-page-1/#comment-206529</link>
		<dc:creator>Oskar Shapley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 21:11:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/#comment-206529</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s not two dimensions. It&#039;s one dimension, known as &quot;area&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It&#8217;s not two dimensions. It&#8217;s one dimension, known as &#8220;area&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Goldberg</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/comment-page-1/#comment-206507</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Goldberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 14:09:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/#comment-206507</guid>
		<description>Dan:

You&#039;re getting a bit detailed for a comment thread; each answer will only lead to new questions.  Derek is right: this is an area in which a lot of painstakingly detailed research has been done.  Read Cleveland or Robbins or Tufte (who is my hero, in no small part because his prose is so beautiful).  If you present numeric data visually you will communicate more clearly and more elegantly by                                                                                                                                                              taking their recommendations to heart.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Dan:</p>

	<p>You&#8217;re getting a bit detailed for a comment thread; each answer will only lead to new questions.  Derek is right: this is an area in which a lot of painstakingly detailed research has been done.  Read Cleveland or Robbins or Tufte (who is my hero, in no small part because his prose is so beautiful).  If you present numeric data visually you will communicate more clearly and more elegantly by                                                                                                                                                              taking their recommendations to heart.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Simon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/comment-page-1/#comment-206502</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 04:26:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/#comment-206502</guid>
		<description>Derek--is that irrespective of the way the rectangles are laid out?  I was speculating that, say, comparing the sub-rectangles at opposite ends of a segmented rectangle might be even harder than comparing non-adjacent segments of a pie graph.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Derek&#8212;is that irrespective of the way the rectangles are laid out?  I was speculating that, say, comparing the sub-rectangles at opposite ends of a segmented rectangle might be even harder than comparing non-adjacent segments of a pie graph.</p>
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		<title>By: derek</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/comment-page-1/#comment-206466</link>
		<dc:creator>derek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2007 10:40:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/#comment-206466</guid>
		<description>dan simon, yes, you&#039;re wrong. The work of researchers like William Cleveland over the past forty years has shown that people (as tested by their ability to actually respond to questions about the data they&#039;re shown) really do visually compare segments of a pie more poorly than areas of a rectangle. There are devices that work even better than areas of a rectangle, but, for what it&#039;s worth, that is the relative position in the hierarchy of pies and rectangles. Pies are the worst. 

This isn&#039;t stuff that was arbitrarily made up one afternoon as a hoax to fool the rest of you. The professionals really do know what they&#039;re talking about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>dan simon, yes, you&#8217;re wrong. The work of researchers like William Cleveland over the past forty years has shown that people (as tested by their ability to actually respond to questions about the data they&#8217;re shown) really do visually compare segments of a pie more poorly than areas of a rectangle. There are devices that work even better than areas of a rectangle, but, for what it&#8217;s worth, that is the relative position in the hierarchy of pies and rectangles. Pies are the worst.</p>

	<p>This isn&#8217;t stuff that was arbitrarily made up one afternoon as a hoax to fool the rest of you. The professionals really do know what they&#8217;re talking about.</p>
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		<title>By: Ares Burger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/comment-page-1/#comment-206384</link>
		<dc:creator>Ares Burger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 10:03:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/#comment-206384</guid>
		<description>Oh good.  I&#039;ve often thought that infomation presented graphically in newspapers should only be accessible to a certain class of autistic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oh good.  I&#8217;ve often thought that infomation presented graphically in newspapers should only be accessible to a certain class of autistic.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/comment-page-1/#comment-206379</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 08:12:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/#comment-206379</guid>
		<description>John Quiggin wrote:
&lt;blockquote&gt;The ideal case for a pie chart is n=3, when each pair of segments is continuous, so you can easily assess combined shares and so on. In this case only, the pie might be better than the data.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

In &lt;a href=&quot;http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/scpo/insured.png&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; case, n=3 (viz., %insured publicly, %insured privately, %uninsured) for 50 states. Even here, I don&#039;t think pie charts would work very well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>John Quiggin wrote:<br />
<blockquote>The ideal case for a pie chart is n=3, when each pair of segments is continuous, so you can easily assess combined shares and so on. In this case only, the pie might be better than the data.</blockquote></p>

	<p>In <a href="http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/scpo/insured.png" rel="nofollow">this</a> case, n=3 (viz., %insured publicly, %insured privately, %uninsured) for 50 states. Even here, I don&#8217;t think pie charts would work very well.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Simon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/comment-page-1/#comment-206374</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 04:58:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/#comment-206374</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;My big objection to pie charts is that they are less useful than the data they illustrate.&lt;/em&gt;

That&#039;s true in general of graphic representations of data, insofar as they&#039;re less precise than the data itself.

&lt;em&gt;Take party vote shares as an example.&lt;/em&gt;

Why not population statistics by year?  They&#039;re both roughly equally poor choices of data to represent using a pie chart.

Look, pie charts are reasonably good at doing two things simultaneously:  giving a rough idea of the relative sizes of a collection of numbers, and giving a rough idea of the size of each number compared with the total.  Sometimes that&#039;s useful, and lots of times it isn&#039;t.  

For example, if the collection of numbers is really small--as in the electoral result example--then a graphic representation isn&#039;t of much use in the first place.  And if the numbers are too close together, then a representation that emphasizes their slight differences--such as a bar graph--works much better.

But if you want to represent, say, a budget--in which both the rough relative sizes of pairs of individual components, &lt;em&gt;and&lt;/em&gt; the rough relative size of each component compared to the whole, are of interest, then a pie chart seems to me like a fine choice.  And--wouldn&#039;t you know it--that&#039;s the kind of thing that pie charts have traditionally been used for. 

Now, Kieran, you suggested that even in these cases, you&#039;d rather use something else instead.  I&#039;m curious--what would you use?  I can imagine, for instance, a rectangle subdivided into segments, as individual bars often are in a bar graph.  But I don&#039;t expect it would be any easier to visually compare nearly-equal subsegments of this rectangle than it would nearly-equal pieces of a pie chart.  Am I wrong?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>My big objection to pie charts is that they are less useful than the data they illustrate.</em></p>

	<p>That&#8217;s true in general of graphic representations of data, insofar as they&#8217;re less precise than the data itself.</p>

	<p><em>Take party vote shares as an example.</em></p>

	<p>Why not population statistics by year?  They&#8217;re both roughly equally poor choices of data to represent using a pie chart.</p>

	<p>Look, pie charts are reasonably good at doing two things simultaneously:  giving a rough idea of the relative sizes of a collection of numbers, and giving a rough idea of the size of each number compared with the total.  Sometimes that&#8217;s useful, and lots of times it isn&#8217;t.</p>

	<p>For example, if the collection of numbers is really small&#8212;as in the electoral result example&#8212;then a graphic representation isn&#8217;t of much use in the first place.  And if the numbers are too close together, then a representation that emphasizes their slight differences&#8212;such as a bar graph&#8212;works much better.</p>

	<p>But if you want to represent, say, a budget&#8212;in which both the rough relative sizes of pairs of individual components, <em>and</em> the rough relative size of each component compared to the whole, are of interest, then a pie chart seems to me like a fine choice.  And&#8212;wouldn&#8217;t you know it&#8212;that&#8217;s the kind of thing that pie charts have traditionally been used for.</p>

	<p>Now, Kieran, you suggested that even in these cases, you&#8217;d rather use something else instead.  I&#8217;m curious&#8212;what would you use?  I can imagine, for instance, a rectangle subdivided into segments, as individual bars often are in a bar graph.  But I don&#8217;t expect it would be any easier to visually compare nearly-equal subsegments of this rectangle than it would nearly-equal pieces of a pie chart.  Am I wrong?</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/comment-page-1/#comment-206318</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 18:31:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/#comment-206318</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/temp/deathsbymonth-pie.png&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;A pie chart, showing pattern of coalition deaths in Iraq by month&lt;/a&gt;.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/temp/deathsbymonth.png&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Not a pie chart, showing pattern of coalition deaths in Iraq by month&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><a href="http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/temp/deathsbymonth-pie.png" rel="nofollow">A pie chart, showing pattern of coalition deaths in Iraq by month</a>.</p>

	<p><a href="http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/temp/deathsbymonth.png" rel="nofollow">Not a pie chart, showing pattern of coalition deaths in Iraq by month</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: c.l. ball</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/comment-page-1/#comment-206313</link>
		<dc:creator>c.l. ball</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 17:53:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/#comment-206313</guid>
		<description>&lt;a&gt;Ooooo. Chart pie.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><a>Ooooo. Chart pie.</a></p>
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		<title>By: Kieran Healy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/comment-page-1/#comment-206288</link>
		<dc:creator>Kieran Healy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 12:25:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/#comment-206288</guid>
		<description>Coincidentally, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~cook/movabletype/archives/2007/08/the_worst_graph.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Andrew Gelman points&lt;/a&gt; to a doozy of a pie chart today, which provides a counterexample to the idea that pie chart segments logically form proportions of a whole.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Coincidentally, <a href="http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~cook/movabletype/archives/2007/08/the_worst_graph.html" rel="nofollow">Andrew Gelman points</a> to a doozy of a pie chart today, which provides a counterexample to the idea that pie chart segments logically form proportions of a whole.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/comment-page-1/#comment-206286</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 11:30:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/#comment-206286</guid>
		<description>My big objection to pie charts is that they are less useful than the data they illustrate. Take party vote shares as an example. With n=2, the numbers are easy to understand, small differences matter and the pie chart is just a blurry representation of the numbers.

With n&gt;=4, the numbers can be a bit tricky, but the pie chart is even worse. For example, suppose the parties are ordered A,B,C,D and you want to judge whether A+C is a majority. With the numbers you have to do some arithmetic, but with only the chart it&#039;s just about impossible, assuming the combined share is close to 50 per cent.

The ideal case for a pie chart is n=3, when each pair of segments is continuous, so you can easily assess combined shares and so on. In this case only, the pie might be better than the data.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>My big objection to pie charts is that they are less useful than the data they illustrate. Take party vote shares as an example. With n=2, the numbers are easy to understand, small differences matter and the pie chart is just a blurry representation of the numbers.</p>

	<p>With n>=4, the numbers can be a bit tricky, but the pie chart is even worse. For example, suppose the parties are ordered A,B,C,D and you want to judge whether A+C is a majority. With the numbers you have to do some arithmetic, but with only the chart it&#8217;s just about impossible, assuming the combined share is close to 50 per cent.</p>

	<p>The ideal case for a pie chart is n=3, when each pair of segments is continuous, so you can easily assess combined shares and so on. In this case only, the pie might be better than the data.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Caldwell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/comment-page-1/#comment-206283</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Caldwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 09:48:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/#comment-206283</guid>
		<description>Wow, I sure hope New York Times graphics staff have something better to hand than Paintshop Pro! 

Adobe Illustrator has built-in support for pie chart creation, so I&#039;d say it&#039;s actually more time-intensive to build a chart like the ones displayed here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Wow, I sure hope New York Times graphics staff have something better to hand than Paintshop Pro!</p>

	<p>Adobe Illustrator has built-in support for pie chart creation, so I&#8217;d say it&#8217;s actually more time-intensive to build a chart like the ones displayed here.</p>
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		<title>By: leederick</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/comment-page-1/#comment-206243</link>
		<dc:creator>leederick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 20:56:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/#comment-206243</guid>
		<description>These pixel-clumps have other advantages over pie charts: they make better use of space - as in there&#039;s more diagram to blank page - and straight lines look better than curves when pixelated.

Labelling is likely easier too. And I suppose they&#039;re easier to knock together than pie charts when you&#039;re working to a deadline in Paintshop Pro, which is probably why they&#039;re turning up.

I&#039;m not sure Kieran&#039;s points about arbitraryness is all that strong. The layout of the subcomponents a pie-chart is arbitrary. The layout of cartograms is arbitrary: there&#039;s isn&#039;t a unique approximation to geography.

You have a lot more options with these things, but that doesn&#039;t mean your choice is going to be arbitrary. The data aren&#039;t unidimensional. Some categories are more similar than others, and you can represent that by their locations in 2D space. Basically making them cartograms in category space rather than geographical space. With pie charts and stacked bars you can only do this in 1D space.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>These pixel-clumps have other advantages over pie charts: they make better use of space &#8211; as in there&#8217;s more diagram to blank page &#8211; and straight lines look better than curves when pixelated.</p>

	<p>Labelling is likely easier too. And I suppose they&#8217;re easier to knock together than pie charts when you&#8217;re working to a deadline in Paintshop Pro, which is probably why they&#8217;re turning up.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m not sure Kieran&#8217;s points about arbitraryness is all that strong. The layout of the subcomponents a pie-chart is arbitrary. The layout of cartograms is arbitrary: there&#8217;s isn&#8217;t a unique approximation to geography.</p>

	<p>You have a lot more options with these things, but that doesn&#8217;t mean your choice is going to be arbitrary. The data aren&#8217;t unidimensional. Some categories are more similar than others, and you can represent that by their locations in 2D space. Basically making them cartograms in category space rather than geographical space. With pie charts and stacked bars you can only do this in 1D space.</p>
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		<title>By: c.l. ball</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/comment-page-1/#comment-206238</link>
		<dc:creator>c.l. ball</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 20:29:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/#comment-206238</guid>
		<description>While a pie chart my distort visual understanding and bar chart can be clunky, it is easier to list percentages or counts in them than in the dot/plot charts. E.g., a public opinion poll asks whether people strongly or slightly agree or disagree. If the percentages are in the pie wedge (e.g.,38%) it is easier to graphically and numerically see whether more agree or disagree in general with a pie or bar than with a dot chart.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>While a pie chart my distort visual understanding and bar chart can be clunky, it is easier to list percentages or counts in them than in the dot/plot charts. E.g., a public opinion poll asks whether people strongly or slightly agree or disagree. If the percentages are in the pie wedge (e.g.,38%) it is easier to graphically and numerically see whether more agree or disagree in general with a pie or bar than with a dot chart.</p>
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		<title>By: eudoxis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/comment-page-1/#comment-206219</link>
		<dc:creator>eudoxis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 17:40:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/01/pixels-and-pies/#comment-206219</guid>
		<description>Pie charts suffer more from problems in angle judgements and color perception than area perception.  Area perception is difficult when the shapes differ, say a square vs. a circle or maps of different countries, not so much when the areas are alike.  Area may be presented with clarity in, for example, a shaded bar chart.  But, graphs in newspapers are rarely forthright, why should the type of graph matter?

Fidelity, btw, has a mosaic type presentation of market activity that is handy.  Rectangles and their size represent companies and market share while number of shares traded is presented in color saturation.  Deceiving, maybe, in that it draws attention to actively traded shares, but effective as a graphical presentation, especially with hyperlinks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Pie charts suffer more from problems in angle judgements and color perception than area perception.  Area perception is difficult when the shapes differ, say a square vs. a circle or maps of different countries, not so much when the areas are alike.  Area may be presented with clarity in, for example, a shaded bar chart.  But, graphs in newspapers are rarely forthright, why should the type of graph matter?</p>

	<p>Fidelity, btw, has a mosaic type presentation of market activity that is handy.  Rectangles and their size represent companies and market share while number of shares traded is presented in color saturation.  Deceiving, maybe, in that it draws attention to actively traded shares, but effective as a graphical presentation, especially with hyperlinks.</p>
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