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	<title>Comments on: Francophilia on the Right</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/04/francophilia-on-the-right/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: jholbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/04/francophilia-on-the-right/comment-page-1/#comment-206605</link>
		<dc:creator>jholbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2007 01:34:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>This has been an agreeably fascinating thread. Thank you all (but also continue to chat, if you care to.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This has been an agreeably fascinating thread. Thank you all (but also continue to chat, if you care to.)</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/04/francophilia-on-the-right/comment-page-1/#comment-206570</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 18:19:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Another great joke about Franco concerned a Spanish Cabinet Minister being awoken by a phone call one night at 3 am.  He answers it to hear the Principal Private Secretary to General Franco calling to say he has &quot;bad news&quot; and &quot;even worse news&quot;.  The Minister asks for the bad news first.  Well, says the PPS, the Generalissimo has just died!  After responding with shock, the Minister asks what news could possibly be worse.   The PPS replies:  &quot;The Cabinet has just met in emergency session and they have chosen you to be the one to tell him.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Another great joke about Franco concerned a Spanish Cabinet Minister being awoken by a phone call one night at 3 am.  He answers it to hear the Principal Private Secretary to General Franco calling to say he has &#8220;bad news&#8221; and &#8220;even worse news&#8221;.  The Minister asks for the bad news first.  Well, says the <span class="caps">PPS</span>, the Generalissimo has just died!  After responding with shock, the Minister asks what news could possibly be worse.   The <span class="caps">PPS</span> replies:  &#8220;The Cabinet has just met in emergency session and they have chosen you to be the one to tell him.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: ejh</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/04/francophilia-on-the-right/comment-page-1/#comment-206542</link>
		<dc:creator>ejh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 09:26:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/04/francophilia-on-the-right/#comment-206542</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_James_Ruthven_Murray&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;HJR Murray&lt;/a&gt; comes to mind. According to the latest &lt;a href=&quot;http://streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com/2007/08/kingpin-39.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Kingpin&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;i&gt;When Harold J Murray set out in 1897 to write his 900-page &quot;History of Chess&quot;, he decided to learn Arabic in addition to the 12 languages he already knew (which included Icelandic, Old Middle German, Early Anglo-Saxon, Medieval Latin and Sanskrit).&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_James_Ruthven_Murray" rel="nofollow"><span class="caps">HJR </span>Murray</a> comes to mind. According to the latest <a href="http://streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com/2007/08/kingpin-39.html" rel="nofollow">Kingpin</a>:</p>

	<p><i>When Harold J Murray set out in 1897 to write his 900-page &#8220;History of Chess&#8221;, he decided to learn Arabic in addition to the 12 languages he already knew (which included Icelandic, Old Middle German, Early Anglo-Saxon, Medieval Latin and Sanskrit).</i></p>
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		<title>By: chris y</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/04/francophilia-on-the-right/comment-page-1/#comment-206541</link>
		<dc:creator>chris y</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 09:04:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/04/francophilia-on-the-right/#comment-206541</guid>
		<description>37. In English. The guy who told it speaks 5 or 6 languages fluently and others less so, Català is his first language, Castillian is his third or fourth (I forget which), and English his fifth, although he says it&#039;s by far the best language to swear in.

Don&#039;t you just hate people like that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>37. In English. The guy who told it speaks 5 or 6 languages fluently and others less so, Catal&#224; is his first language, Castillian is his third or fourth (I forget which), and English his fifth, although he says it&#8217;s by far the best language to swear in.</p>

	<p>Don&#8217;t you just hate people like that?</p>
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		<title>By: s.e.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/04/francophilia-on-the-right/comment-page-1/#comment-206524</link>
		<dc:creator>s.e.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 20:42:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/04/francophilia-on-the-right/#comment-206524</guid>
		<description>On the subject of the movie (Buckley doesn&#039;t interest me much); as in most art the conclusion succeeds as an elision or a papering over of contradiction by means of rhetoric and sensibility: and opposed to the either/or of Aristotelian logic.

How does one do justice to the pleasure and even the need for fantasy in a world of cruel political reality? How do you defend intellectual awareness while defending dreams?  How do you respect the dreams of a child, and the child herself, while taking seriously the obligations of adulthood?
Guillermo del Toro reminds us that there&#039;s no answer.
It&#039;s the only fantasy movie I&#039;ve seen recently, and definitely the only one full of special effects wizardry, that&#039;s actually made for adults.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>On the subject of the movie (Buckley doesn&#8217;t interest me much); as in most art the conclusion succeeds as an elision or a papering over of contradiction by means of rhetoric and sensibility: and opposed to the either/or of Aristotelian logic.</p>

	<p>How does one do justice to the pleasure and even the need for fantasy in a world of cruel political reality? How do you defend intellectual awareness while defending dreams?  How do you respect the dreams of a child, and the child herself, while taking seriously the obligations of adulthood?<br />
Guillermo del Toro reminds us that there&#8217;s no answer.<br />
It&#8217;s the only fantasy movie I&#8217;ve seen recently, and definitely the only one full of special effects wizardry, that&#8217;s actually made for adults.</p>
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		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/04/francophilia-on-the-right/comment-page-1/#comment-206521</link>
		<dc:creator>anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 20:25:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/04/francophilia-on-the-right/#comment-206521</guid>
		<description>Meaning 11 sounds right-ish to me -- possibly meaning 11 with overtones of meaning 38. 

But I bet people _laughed_ just becuase of the simple unexpectedness of it. There are surprising continuities between what is funny to adults and what is funny to a 3-year-old (i.e.: surprise!).

This is one of the most interesting extended discussions of a joke I have ever seen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Meaning 11 sounds right-ish to me&#8212;possibly meaning 11 with overtones of meaning 38.</p>

	<p>But I bet people <em>laughed</em> just becuase of the simple unexpectedness of it. There are surprising continuities between what is funny to adults and what is funny to a 3-year-old (i.e.: surprise!).</p>

	<p>This is one of the most interesting extended discussions of a joke I have ever seen.</p>
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		<title>By: ogged</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/04/francophilia-on-the-right/comment-page-1/#comment-206518</link>
		<dc:creator>ogged</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 20:04:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/04/francophilia-on-the-right/#comment-206518</guid>
		<description>So isn&#039;t the probable answer that Buckley heard the joke with meaning 5 but told it with meaning 11?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>So isn&#8217;t the probable answer that Buckley heard the joke with meaning 5 but told it with meaning 11?</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Simon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/04/francophilia-on-the-right/comment-page-1/#comment-206513</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 17:53:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/04/francophilia-on-the-right/#comment-206513</guid>
		<description>The context of this anecdote is important.  Buckley is speaking during the early nineties--a time when conservatives were feeling vindicated,  not just about the Cold War in general, but more specifically about the Cold-War policy of supporting right-wing third-world &quot;authoritarian&quot; dictatorships.  Many of these (Argentina, the Philippines, South Korea, Taiwan) were rapidly democratizing while their Marxist counterparts (Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam, Zimbabwe) sank deeper into repression and squalor.  

As one of the prototypes for the Kirkpatrickian &quot;authoritarian&quot; dictator whose country transitioned fairly smoothly to democracy, Franco would have been viewed with some sympathy by an early-nineties conservative audience.  Buckley surely knew this, as he surely knew that his audience would have more than a few Rush Limbaugh fans.  Hence, it would have been perfectly natural for him to equate Limbaugh and Franco, in that setting, as two leaders who were bitterly despised except among those unfashionable people wise and farsighted enough to appreciate them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The context of this anecdote is important.  Buckley is speaking during the early nineties&#8212;a time when conservatives were feeling vindicated,  not just about the Cold War in general, but more specifically about the Cold-War policy of supporting right-wing third-world &#8220;authoritarian&#8221; dictatorships.  Many of these (Argentina, the Philippines, South Korea, Taiwan) were rapidly democratizing while their Marxist counterparts (Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam, Zimbabwe) sank deeper into repression and squalor.</p>

	<p>As one of the prototypes for the Kirkpatrickian &#8220;authoritarian&#8221; dictator whose country transitioned fairly smoothly to democracy, Franco would have been viewed with some sympathy by an early-nineties conservative audience.  Buckley surely knew this, as he surely knew that his audience would have more than a few Rush Limbaugh fans.  Hence, it would have been perfectly natural for him to equate Limbaugh and Franco, in that setting, as two leaders who were bitterly despised except among those unfashionable people wise and farsighted enough to appreciate them.</p>
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		<title>By: ejh</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/04/francophilia-on-the-right/comment-page-1/#comment-206510</link>
		<dc:creator>ejh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 16:18:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/04/francophilia-on-the-right/#comment-206510</guid>
		<description>Just out of interest, did you hear the joke in Castillian or Català?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Just out of interest, did you hear the joke in Castillian or Catal&#224;?</p>
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		<title>By: Ignacio</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/04/francophilia-on-the-right/comment-page-1/#comment-206509</link>
		<dc:creator>Ignacio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 16:00:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/04/francophilia-on-the-right/#comment-206509</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m with # 1 and # 11.

The surreal part of this story is, to me, why the majority of the audience would laugh spontaneuously if Buckley were equating loving Rush to loving Franco.

Possible answers:

(1) They didn&#039;t get what Buckley was trying to say, but laughed anyway.

(2) They really believe it&#039;s obvious, in a contrarian and politically incorrect way, why someone would love Franco (i.e., his status as a pillar of anti-communism, his support of traditionalist Catholicism), just as it is obvious why someone would love Rush.

(3) They think Buckley is appropriating liberal stereotypes of American conservativism (i.e., &quot;crypto-fascists&quot;) in order to mock them and that this mockery is both obvious and funny.

I vote for (1).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m with # 1 and # 11.</p>

	<p>The surreal part of this story is, to me, why the majority of the audience would laugh spontaneuously if Buckley were equating loving Rush to loving Franco.</p>

	<p>Possible answers:</p>

	<p>(1) They didn&#8217;t get what Buckley was trying to say, but laughed anyway.</p>

	<p>(2) They really believe it&#8217;s obvious, in a contrarian and politically incorrect way, why someone would love Franco (i.e., his status as a pillar of anti-communism, his support of traditionalist Catholicism), just as it is obvious why someone would love Rush.</p>

	<p>(3) They think Buckley is appropriating liberal stereotypes of American conservativism (i.e., &#8220;crypto-fascists&#8221;) in order to mock them and that this mockery is both obvious and funny.</p>

	<p>I vote for (1).</p>
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		<title>By: chris y</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/04/francophilia-on-the-right/comment-page-1/#comment-206508</link>
		<dc:creator>chris y</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 14:20:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/04/francophilia-on-the-right/#comment-206508</guid>
		<description>I first heard this version in 1972 (el Caudillo was still alive, sort of), in a crowded bar in Barcelona, and it was quite clear that the teller&#039;s intention was that anyone who admitted to liking Franco in public was liable to lose all his friends, family and credit. It was a joke because the telling made the listener suppose that the guy was afraid of the secret police, not public opinion, until the punchline.

This says two things about the state of Spain in Franco&#039;s last years: firstly, that it was taken for granted that anyone without a vested interest was opposed to the regime; secondly, that the state had given up on even trying to control low level disaffection, reserving its attentions for active opponents.

What Buckley thought he was saying remains a mystery to me. Probably he just didn&#039;t get it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I first heard this version in 1972 (el Caudillo was still alive, sort of), in a crowded bar in Barcelona, and it was quite clear that the teller&#8217;s intention was that anyone who admitted to liking Franco in public was liable to lose all his friends, family and credit. It was a joke because the telling made the listener suppose that the guy was afraid of the secret police, not public opinion, until the punchline.</p>

	<p>This says two things about the state of Spain in Franco&#8217;s last years: firstly, that it was taken for granted that anyone without a vested interest was opposed to the regime; secondly, that the state had given up on even trying to control low level disaffection, reserving its attentions for active opponents.</p>

	<p>What Buckley thought he was saying remains a mystery to me. Probably he just didn&#8217;t get it.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Donoghue</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/04/francophilia-on-the-right/comment-page-1/#comment-206506</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Donoghue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 12:52:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/04/francophilia-on-the-right/#comment-206506</guid>
		<description>How old is the joke? I seem to remember reading it in Len Deighton’s Funeral in Berlin (1964), with Walter Ulbricht going around in disguise, testing his popularity. (KGB Colonel Stok, who fancies himself as a comedian, explains to the Michael Caine character that he gets his material from the arrest reports of the unfortunate jokers.) Any earlier references?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>How old is the joke? I seem to remember reading it in Len Deighton&#8217;s Funeral in Berlin (1964), with Walter Ulbricht going around in disguise, testing his popularity. (KGB Colonel Stok, who fancies himself as a comedian, explains to the Michael Caine character that he gets his material from the arrest reports of the unfortunate jokers.) Any earlier references?</p>
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		<title>By: ejh</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/04/francophilia-on-the-right/comment-page-1/#comment-206505</link>
		<dc:creator>ejh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 11:09:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/04/francophilia-on-the-right/#comment-206505</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;And for the people who have posted that the point was that Franco was so unpopular you had to hide favorable feelings for him&lt;/i&gt;

That&#039;s the point of the joke: it doesn&#039;t follow that it was true, especially as it very obviously wasn&#039;t &lt;i&gt;literally&lt;/i&gt; true.

&lt;i&gt;I have to think that you are not aware of the Catholic conservative take on Franco&lt;/i&gt;

Living as I do in a Spanish town that survived a very long Republican siege, I have to say I&#039;m not unaware of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>And for the people who have posted that the point was that Franco was so unpopular you had to hide favorable feelings for him</i></p>

	<p>That&#8217;s the point of the joke: it doesn&#8217;t follow that it was true, especially as it very obviously wasn&#8217;t <i>literally</i> true.</p>

	<p><i>I have to think that you are not aware of the Catholic conservative take on Franco</i></p>

	<p>Living as I do in a Spanish town that survived a very long Republican siege, I have to say I&#8217;m not unaware of it.</p>
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		<title>By: bad Jim</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/04/francophilia-on-the-right/comment-page-1/#comment-206504</link>
		<dc:creator>bad Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 06:43:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/04/francophilia-on-the-right/#comment-206504</guid>
		<description>Counterfactual (20) is of course correct. The point of a joke is to make people laugh. 

A similar joke, related by Freud: at a formal dinner party, a man was passed a bowl of Hollandaise sauce, dipped his fingers in it and ran them through his hair. Noticing his neighbors&#039; dismay, he apologised, &quot;I&#039;m so sorry! I thought it was mayonnaise.&quot;

As to what Buckley had in mind, who knows? I suspect that he told the joke to avoid an uncomfortable question. Such a famously sesquipedalian snob may not have enjoyed Limbaugh, and may have considered him a competitive threat, but he wouldn&#039;t have wanted to alienate the enthusiasts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Counterfactual (20) is of course correct. The point of a joke is to make people laugh.</p>

	<p>A similar joke, related by Freud: at a formal dinner party, a man was passed a bowl of Hollandaise sauce, dipped his fingers in it and ran them through his hair. Noticing his neighbors&#8217; dismay, he apologised, &#8220;I&#8217;m so sorry! I thought it was mayonnaise.&#8221;</p>

	<p>As to what Buckley had in mind, who knows? I suspect that he told the joke to avoid an uncomfortable question. Such a famously sesquipedalian snob may not have enjoyed Limbaugh, and may have considered him a competitive threat, but he wouldn&#8217;t have wanted to alienate the enthusiasts.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Kuzma</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/04/francophilia-on-the-right/comment-page-1/#comment-206503</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Kuzma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 04:38:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/04/francophilia-on-the-right/#comment-206503</guid>
		<description>Me too, Randy Paul.  I was very confused when we started into a story about Rush Limbaugh and Spaniards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Me too, Randy Paul.  I was very confused when we started into a story about Rush Limbaugh and Spaniards.</p>
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