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	<title>Comments on: Two weeks behind the Zeitgeist</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Earthbound Misfit</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/comment-page-1/#comment-206744</link>
		<dc:creator>Earthbound Misfit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 06:13:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/#comment-206744</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;How is this different from the current situation?&lt;/i&gt;
You&#039;re starting to ask the right questions. The answer, of course, is that we are seeing the beginning of Peak Oil. The Resource Wars have already begun. It is no coincidence that Iraq is sitting on the largest undeveloped conventional oil fields in the known world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>How is this different from the current situation?</i><br />
You&#8217;re starting to ask the right questions. The answer, of course, is that we are seeing the beginning of Peak Oil. The Resource Wars have already begun. It is no coincidence that Iraq is sitting on the largest undeveloped conventional oil fields in the known world.</p>
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		<title>By: mpowell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/comment-page-1/#comment-206660</link>
		<dc:creator>mpowell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2007 15:27:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Bruce Wilder, isn&#039;t the real concern that we&#039;ll simply shift from burning oil to coal?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Bruce Wilder, isn&#8217;t the real concern that we&#8217;ll simply shift from burning oil to coal?</p>
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		<title>By: mpowell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/comment-page-1/#comment-206659</link>
		<dc:creator>mpowell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2007 15:26:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/#comment-206659</guid>
		<description>&gt;When production is at a maximum, and there are natural disasters or wars that reduce the availability of oil,

How is this different from the current situation?  Or the situation for most of this century?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>>When production is at a maximum, and there are natural disasters or wars that reduce the availability of oil,</p>

	<p>How is this different from the current situation?  Or the situation for most of this century?</p>
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		<title>By: ljh</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/comment-page-1/#comment-206644</link>
		<dc:creator>ljh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2007 12:52:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/#comment-206644</guid>
		<description>&quot;if the curve is smooth from a large enough time scale, it won’t cause economic disaster&quot; 

The downward production sloping curve is unlikely to be smooth on any timescale relevant to you and I.  When production is at a maximum, and there are natural disasters or wars that reduce the availability of oil, there will be spikes in oil price that will be disastrous for those whose way of life is dependent on continued cheap oil supplies i.e. almost everyone in the developed world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;if the curve is smooth from a large enough time scale, it won&#8217;t cause economic disaster&#8221;</p>

	<p>The downward production sloping curve is unlikely to be smooth on any timescale relevant to you and I.  When production is at a maximum, and there are natural disasters or wars that reduce the availability of oil, there will be spikes in oil price that will be disastrous for those whose way of life is dependent on continued cheap oil supplies i.e. almost everyone in the developed world.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Wilder</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/comment-page-1/#comment-206579</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Wilder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 20:15:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/#comment-206579</guid>
		<description>The doomsayers are certainly wrong to predict that oil will reach and sustain some very high price.

The plateau, because of insufficient slack, may well be marked by price spikes.  But, in the long run, there&#039;s more oil producible at reasonable economic cost than we can afford to burn.  Anytime, a wise economic course requires collective human self-restraint, there be danger.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The doomsayers are certainly wrong to predict that oil will reach and sustain some very high price.</p>

	<p>The plateau, because of insufficient slack, may well be marked by price spikes.  But, in the long run, there&#8217;s more oil producible at reasonable economic cost than we can afford to burn.  Anytime, a wise economic course requires collective human self-restraint, there be danger.</p>
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		<title>By: mpowell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/comment-page-1/#comment-206573</link>
		<dc:creator>mpowell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 19:15:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/#comment-206573</guid>
		<description>The difference is b/w the way peak oil is presented: as a description of a natural enough phenomenon or a prediction of disaster.  Sure, our plateau looks like a peak from a large enough time scale.  But if the curve is smooth from a large enough time scale, it won&#039;t cause economic disaster.  Different people put different spin on the concept of peak oil.  And if we are in a plateau that is sustained for 10 or more years, the economy will probably be okay.  So from this perspective, I would say that the current evidence is discrediting the doomsdayers&#039; outlook.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The difference is b/w the way peak oil is presented: as a description of a natural enough phenomenon or a prediction of disaster.  Sure, our plateau looks like a peak from a large enough time scale.  But if the curve is smooth from a large enough time scale, it won&#8217;t cause economic disaster.  Different people put different spin on the concept of peak oil.  And if we are in a plateau that is sustained for 10 or more years, the economy will probably be okay.  So from this perspective, I would say that the current evidence is discrediting the doomsdayers&#8217; outlook.</p>
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		<title>By: gmoke</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/comment-page-1/#comment-206572</link>
		<dc:creator>gmoke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 18:22:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/#comment-206572</guid>
		<description>According to John Robb, few if any people in positions of power in Washington are cognizant of peak oil let alone plateau oil.  According to Jerome a Paris, few if any people in positions of power in Europe are cognizant of peak oil let alone plateau oil.

The major industrial nations are about to start riding down the bell curve without even noticing.  James Howard Kunstler should be happy to have his ideas confirmed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>According to John Robb, few if any people in positions of power in Washington are cognizant of peak oil let alone plateau oil.  According to Jerome a Paris, few if any people in positions of power in Europe are cognizant of peak oil let alone plateau oil.</p>

	<p>The major industrial nations are about to start riding down the bell curve without even noticing.  James Howard Kunstler should be happy to have his ideas confirmed.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/comment-page-1/#comment-206571</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 18:20:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/#comment-206571</guid>
		<description>This feels to me more like a few years behind the zeitgeist. Hasn&#039;t it always been well-known that the &quot;peak&quot; would be some form of plateau, or even a set of &quot;rolling hills&quot; or insert-your-own-topographical-metaphor-here?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This feels to me more like a few years behind the zeitgeist. Hasn&#8217;t it always been well-known that the &#8220;peak&#8221; would be some form of plateau, or even a set of &#8220;rolling hills&#8221; or insert-your-own-topographical-metaphor-here?</p>
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		<title>By: paul</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/comment-page-1/#comment-206563</link>
		<dc:creator>paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 16:52:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/#comment-206563</guid>
		<description>from far enough away, a plateau will look like a peak. and isn&#039;t the fact that the rate of production/extraction is not increasing at the same time demand is what the Peak Oil crowd is really concerned with?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>from far enough away, a plateau will look like a peak. and isn&#8217;t the fact that the rate of production/extraction is not increasing at the same time demand is what the Peak Oil crowd is really concerned with?</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/comment-page-1/#comment-206562</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 16:48:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/#comment-206562</guid>
		<description>How about &lt;a href=&quot;http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:AltiplanoWithLlamasNearMachuca.jpg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;altiplano&lt;/a&gt; oil?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>How about <a href="http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:AltiplanoWithLlamasNearMachuca.jpg" rel="nofollow">altiplano</a> oil?</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Wilder</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/comment-page-1/#comment-206561</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Wilder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 16:37:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/#comment-206561</guid>
		<description>To help Matt Kuzma with his fumbling:

the theory of &quot;peak oil&quot; is that the amount of energy consumed in producing consumable petroleum products -- e.g. fuels -- will gradually increase, both because greater effort has to be expended in extraction, and because the quality of extracted petroleum declines.  That&#039;s the supply side.

On the demand side, the demand curve is shifting, due to the rapid economic growth of industrializing countries, but the long-run elasticity of demand remains significantly greater than &quot;1&quot;.  The upshot of this combination is that there is an effective ceiling on long-run price, but as long as the world is in the current plateau period, there will be too little reserve production capacity in the supply chain.  (Why would anyone invest in greater capacity, when everyone knows physical throughput will decline?).  The price of oil and derived consumable products is subject to price spikes, in response to any disruption in the supply chain, because there is too little slack in that supply chain.  Such spikes are expected to spur investment in alternative energy sources, bringing to bear the high long-run elasticity of demand.

As actual production declines from the current plateau, slack in the (then over-built) supply chain will increase substantially everywhere except the fields (and that will be adequately compensated for by storage), and price &quot;spikes&quot; will disappear.  

That&#039;s when the real political fight over global warming issues will begin -- as countries and regions where economic development has lagged are tempted to exploit petroleum as an energy source, keeping high-pollution consumption high.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>To help Matt Kuzma with his fumbling:</p>

	<p>the theory of &#8220;peak oil&#8221; is that the amount of energy consumed in producing consumable petroleum products&#8212;e.g. fuels&#8212;will gradually increase, both because greater effort has to be expended in extraction, and because the quality of extracted petroleum declines.  That&#8217;s the supply side.</p>

	<p>On the demand side, the demand curve is shifting, due to the rapid economic growth of industrializing countries, but the long-run elasticity of demand remains significantly greater than &#8220;1&#8221;.  The upshot of this combination is that there is an effective ceiling on long-run price, but as long as the world is in the current plateau period, there will be too little reserve production capacity in the supply chain.  (Why would anyone invest in greater capacity, when everyone knows physical throughput will decline?).  The price of oil and derived consumable products is subject to price spikes, in response to any disruption in the supply chain, because there is too little slack in that supply chain.  Such spikes are expected to spur investment in alternative energy sources, bringing to bear the high long-run elasticity of demand.</p>

	<p>As actual production declines from the current plateau, slack in the (then over-built) supply chain will increase substantially everywhere except the fields (and that will be adequately compensated for by storage), and price &#8220;spikes&#8221; will disappear.</p>

	<p>That&#8217;s when the real political fight over global warming issues will begin&#8212;as countries and regions where economic development has lagged are tempted to exploit petroleum as an energy source, keeping high-pollution consumption high.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Kuzma</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/comment-page-1/#comment-206559</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Kuzma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 16:06:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/#comment-206559</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not up on my mathematics-to-economics translation (I do remember that &quot;marginal&quot; means &quot;derivative&quot;) so the only sensible thing to do is to fumble about at random:

Isn&#039;t there something about the price-inelasticity of demand for oil that changes your conclusions?  When enough of the economy (namely transportation) is based entirely on oil, doesn&#039;t that mean demand can only drop so much in the face of rising price?  I&#039;m not a big peak-oil zealot, but isn&#039;t there some real concern that a sufficiently precipitous drop in supply could cause a widespread increase in the price of everything that needs to be moved from one place to another at any point in its supply chain and, that category including essentially everything, cause a general downturn or &quot;crash&quot; in the economy?  Is there some way to determine how steep the supply drop-off would have to be for it to really have an impact on the economy as a whole?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m not up on my mathematics-to-economics translation (I do remember that &#8220;marginal&#8221; means &#8220;derivative&#8221;) so the only sensible thing to do is to fumble about at random:</p>

	<p>Isn&#8217;t there something about the price-inelasticity of demand for oil that changes your conclusions?  When enough of the economy (namely transportation) is based entirely on oil, doesn&#8217;t that mean demand can only drop so much in the face of rising price?  I&#8217;m not a big peak-oil zealot, but isn&#8217;t there some real concern that a sufficiently precipitous drop in supply could cause a widespread increase in the price of everything that needs to be moved from one place to another at any point in its supply chain and, that category including essentially everything, cause a general downturn or &#8220;crash&#8221; in the economy?  Is there some way to determine how steep the supply drop-off would have to be for it to really have an impact on the economy as a whole?</p>
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		<title>By: derek</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/comment-page-1/#comment-206556</link>
		<dc:creator>derek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 15:20:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/#comment-206556</guid>
		<description>We&#039;ve been pulling oil out of the ground for two hundred years, and we&#039;ll be pulling it out for another two hundred. Of course the peak looks like a plateau from the ant&#039;s-eye view of current affairs. Anyone who thought peak oil would look like a sudden crash of supply has been getting their ideas from Mad Max movies. 

Meanwhile, although supplies have been going neither up nor down, the number of people who want oil hasn&#039;t stopped going up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>We&#8217;ve been pulling oil out of the ground for two hundred years, and we&#8217;ll be pulling it out for another two hundred. Of course the peak looks like a plateau from the ant&#8217;s-eye view of current affairs. Anyone who thought peak oil would look like a sudden crash of supply has been getting their ideas from Mad Max movies.</p>

	<p>Meanwhile, although supplies have been going neither up nor down, the number of people who want oil hasn&#8217;t stopped going up.</p>
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		<title>By: P O'Neill</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/comment-page-1/#comment-206553</link>
		<dc:creator>P O'Neill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 15:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/#comment-206553</guid>
		<description>I think that there are other shorter term things going on besides the longer term considerations you mention and the impact of China.  For example, OPEC deciding that western refining companies were capturing &quot;too much&quot; profit with the scarcity of refined petroleum and so deciding to squeeze them on the supply side.  There was a truly remarkable amount of &quot;maintenance&quot; going on at US refineries earlier in the year.   There are also technicalities on the speculative side, such as the oil futures yield curve.  OPEC was keeping the supply outlook tight to make it harder for speculators to roll over their futures contract at a profit.  But they are less concerned about speculative profits now and so the supply tightness can be relaxed a bit.  If, from their perspective, OPEC decides that the refining and speculative markets are working a bit better, supply could rise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think that there are other shorter term things going on besides the longer term considerations you mention and the impact of China.  For example, <span class="caps">OPEC</span> deciding that western refining companies were capturing &#8220;too much&#8221; profit with the scarcity of refined petroleum and so deciding to squeeze them on the supply side.  There was a truly remarkable amount of &#8220;maintenance&#8221; going on at US refineries earlier in the year.   There are also technicalities on the speculative side, such as the oil futures yield curve.  <span class="caps">OPEC</span> was keeping the supply outlook tight to make it harder for speculators to roll over their futures contract at a profit.  But they are less concerned about speculative profits now and so the supply tightness can be relaxed a bit.  If, from their perspective, <span class="caps">OPEC</span> decides that the refining and speculative markets are working a bit better, supply could rise.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Chris Williams</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/comment-page-1/#comment-206549</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 13:24:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/06/two-weeks-behind-the-zeitgeist/#comment-206549</guid>
		<description>Given that in Derbyshire and Yorkshire, a &#039;peak&#039; (a la &#039;Peak District&#039;) is actually a plateau, we can go right on talking about &#039;peak oil&#039; with no loss of meaning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Given that in Derbyshire and Yorkshire, a &#8216;peak&#8217; (a la &#8216;Peak District&#8217;) is actually a plateau, we can go right on talking about &#8216;peak oil&#8217; with no loss of meaning.</p>
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