Comments on: The Kristol Method http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:56:07 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: e julius drivingstorm http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/comment-page-1/#comment-207357 e julius drivingstorm Tue, 14 Aug 2007 02:41:43 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/#comment-207357 Weren't Kristol and Kagan trying to both promote and excuse fascism as the primary modus operandus of the Republican will to grab and hold power? The only thing missing was the volatile term itself which has since been corrupted into the so-called war on terror as islamo-fascism. Molly Ivins was right - they are projection artists. Roy @ #11 - In explaining his role in the arms for hostages caper when he brokered the missile deal between Israel and Iran while simultaneously arming Iraq against Iran, Reagan pouted that he did it to try to free "three, maybe five" hostages. He took the brokerage fee to illegally fund the Nicaraguan Contras, but that's okay because he couldn't remember that (whew). Barry @ #13 - Keep them at war with each other. The CEO party thinks it can handle and manage situations better than anyone else, so they use the money and the authoritarianism and the hot-button issues to perpetuate their power. These are master strokes. Weren’t Kristol and Kagan trying to both promote and excuse fascism as the primary modus operandus of the Republican will to grab and hold power? The only thing missing was the volatile term itself which has since been corrupted into the so-called war on terror as islamo-fascism.

Molly Ivins was right – they are projection artists.

Roy @ #11 – In explaining his role in the arms for hostages caper when he brokered the missile deal between Israel and Iran while simultaneously arming Iraq against Iran, Reagan pouted that he did it to try to free “three, maybe five” hostages. He took the brokerage fee to illegally fund the Nicaraguan Contras, but that’s okay because he couldn’t remember that (whew).

Barry @ #13 – Keep them at war with each other. The CEO party thinks it can handle and manage situations better than anyone else, so they use the money and the authoritarianism and the hot-button issues to perpetuate their power. These are master strokes.

]]> By: Henry http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/comment-page-1/#comment-207298 Henry Mon, 13 Aug 2007 14:58:18 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/#comment-207298 dan - I haven't - have you a link to it??? (also we should meet at APSA for a coffee - shameful that I haven't made it across town ....) dan – I haven’t – have you a link to it??? (also we should meet at APSA for a coffee – shameful that I haven’t made it across town ….)

]]> By: Barry http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/comment-page-1/#comment-207270 Barry Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:56:56 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/#comment-207270 bad jim: " However, the corporations can’t find this completely comfortable, since so many of them are doing business with other scarcely more respectable regimes in the Middle East, and our supposed opponents in that arena don’t really have the sort of hardware that requires our most expensive counter-measures, like a missile defense system. Still, what other game is in town?" In addition, it's working quite well. 9/11 was basically a Saudi Wahabbite (sp?) operation, with Pakistani support for the organization in general (through their support for the Taliban, who were openly supporting Al Qaida). Result: trash Iraq, get more hostile with Iran, trash Afghanistan but fail to win decisively against the people who supported 9/11. Keep on good terms with Saudi Arabia, and sell them more military hardware. Sell vast quantities of goods and services to support the war in Iraq, frequently under cost plus, no bid contracts. bad jim: ” However, the corporations can’t find this completely comfortable, since so many of them are doing business with other scarcely more respectable regimes in the Middle East, and our supposed opponents in that arena don’t really have the sort of hardware that requires our most expensive counter-measures, like a missile defense system. Still, what other game is in town?”

In addition, it’s working quite well. 9/11 was basically a Saudi Wahabbite (sp?) operation, with Pakistani support for the organization in general (through their support for the Taliban, who were openly supporting Al Qaida).

Result: trash Iraq, get more hostile with Iran, trash Afghanistan but fail to win decisively against the people who supported 9/11. Keep on good terms with Saudi Arabia, and sell them more military hardware. Sell vast quantities of goods and services to support the war in Iraq, frequently under cost plus, no bid contracts.

]]> By: Barry http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/comment-page-1/#comment-207262 Barry Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:05:25 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/#comment-207262 Henry: "Unlike many CT commenters, I think that there is a lot that is valuable in certain variants of conservatism – specifically the kind of political caution advocated by people like Burke and Oakeshott. This isn’t to say that I buy into their arguments fully at all – but I do think that they are important. " I agree. "However, there is very little of this to be seen in full blown conservative accounts of what the US should do in foreign policy, and I think that there are important structural reasons why this is so...." Perhaps we should accept the fact that 'small government' conservatism, for one variant, is as dead as a doornail. The right, and the alleged conservatives, strive to keep money from being taxed out of their favorites' pockets, and from going into the pockets of those whom they despise. Which is merely a commonplace, not a principle, let alone a principle of small government. As for libertarian conservatism, Eisenhower, Nixon, Reagan, Bush I and most zealously Bush II have all increased government powers. Including in ways which would have shocked many from pre-WWII days. Henry: “Unlike many CT commenters, I think that there is a lot that is valuable in certain variants of conservatism – specifically the kind of political caution advocated by people like Burke and Oakeshott. This isn’t to say that I buy into their arguments fully at all – but I do think that they are important. ”

I agree.

“However, there is very little of this to be seen in full blown conservative accounts of what the US should do in foreign policy, and I think that there are important structural reasons why this is so….”

Perhaps we should accept the fact that ‘small government’ conservatism, for one variant, is as dead as a doornail. The right, and the alleged conservatives, strive to keep money from being taxed out of their favorites’ pockets, and from going into the pockets of those whom they despise. Which is merely a commonplace, not a principle, let alone a principle of small government.

As for libertarian conservatism, Eisenhower, Nixon, Reagan, Bush I and most zealously Bush II have all increased government powers. Including in ways which would have shocked many from pre-WWII days.

]]> By: Roy Belmont http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/comment-page-1/#comment-207244 Roy Belmont Mon, 13 Aug 2007 08:32:46 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/#comment-207244 #7 - <i>"these guys are doing just as..."</i> <i>"the Idiot Prince and the Senile Actor"</i> Imputing intention to a creature of Reagan's vacuity is dangerously wishful. Some of us think it's quite possible that both Bush and Reagan are examples of something new, a kind of spiritual homunculus with a superior telegenic front, mental blank slates with excellent poll numbers based on carefully crafted scripts they're led to believe are their own values and ideas, convincingly brought to the people through a complicitous and deceptive media. Reagan was a master of ceremonies, nothing more, a performer, a working actor to the day he died. Bush is a cowboy out of the same celluloid mold, fictional, unreal, a participant in a set of illusions whose purpose is to co-opt the human need for stories as vehicles for learned and inspired truth, and replace them with dogma and doctrine and propaganda-driven lies. And bottom-line black ink. Reagan was a natural and kept to his blocking and memorized lines and motives like a pro, Bush is an amateur working behind locked doors on a closed set through take after take, but as product they're both stars in the same industry. Talking about either one in the context of ideology or philosophy is like talking about the moral character of the actors on CSI:Miami as represented by the roles they play. #7 – “these guys are doing just as…”
“the Idiot Prince and the Senile Actor”
Imputing intention to a creature of Reagan’s vacuity is dangerously wishful.
Some of us think it’s quite possible that both Bush and Reagan are examples of something new, a kind of spiritual homunculus with a superior telegenic front, mental blank slates with excellent poll numbers based on carefully crafted scripts they’re led to believe are their own values and ideas, convincingly brought to the people through a complicitous and deceptive media.
Reagan was a master of ceremonies, nothing more, a performer, a working actor to the day he died. Bush is a cowboy out of the same celluloid mold, fictional, unreal, a participant in a set of illusions whose purpose is to co-opt the human need for stories as vehicles for learned and inspired truth, and replace them with dogma and doctrine and propaganda-driven lies. And bottom-line black ink.
Reagan was a natural and kept to his blocking and memorized lines and motives like a pro, Bush is an amateur working behind locked doors on a closed set through take after take, but as product they’re both stars in the same industry.
Talking about either one in the context of ideology or philosophy is like talking about the moral character of the actors on CSI:Miami as represented by the roles they play.

]]> By: bad Jim http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/comment-page-1/#comment-207243 bad Jim Mon, 13 Aug 2007 07:51:16 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/#comment-207243 The focus on the external threat is certainly congenial to the authoritarian core constituency, as it validates their addiction to fear, and it certainly gladdens the corporations addicted to fat defense budgets, who in turn addict politicians with their campaign contributions. Not all external threats are alike, though. The Axis powers were opposed by an avowedly liberal president and occasionally accommodated by conservative industrialists who shared some of the enemy's values, including racism and anti-communism. Communism was the dream enemy for conservatives, because it represented both an arguably existential threat and a dangerous ideology which could be employed to discredit much of the liberal agenda. Beware of socialized medicine! (Never mind that it was clear, at least by the end of WWII, that the Soviet economic system was bound to collapse; authoritarians were then and are now happy to argue both that the bad guys' system won't work and they'll conquer us.) The present situation appeals to the authoritarian fraction; the specter of resurgent Islam sends delicious shivers down their spines, and they find cave-dwelling religious extremists just as credible as their own leaders. However, the corporations can't find this completely comfortable, since so many of them are doing business with other scarcely more respectable regimes in the Middle East, and our supposed opponents in that arena don't really have the sort of hardware that requires our most expensive counter-measures, like a missile defense system. Still, what other game is in town? The focus on the external threat is certainly congenial to the authoritarian core constituency, as it validates their addiction to fear, and it certainly gladdens the corporations addicted to fat defense budgets, who in turn addict politicians with their campaign contributions.

Not all external threats are alike, though. The Axis powers were opposed by an avowedly liberal president and occasionally accommodated by conservative industrialists who shared some of the enemy’s values, including racism and anti-communism.

Communism was the dream enemy for conservatives, because it represented both an arguably existential threat and a dangerous ideology which could be employed to discredit much of the liberal agenda. Beware of socialized medicine! (Never mind that it was clear, at least by the end of WWII, that the Soviet economic system was bound to collapse; authoritarians were then and are now happy to argue both that the bad guys’ system won’t work and they’ll conquer us.)

The present situation appeals to the authoritarian fraction; the specter of resurgent Islam sends delicious shivers down their spines, and they find cave-dwelling religious extremists just as credible as their own leaders. However, the corporations can’t find this completely comfortable, since so many of them are doing business with other scarcely more respectable regimes in the Middle East, and our supposed opponents in that arena don’t really have the sort of hardware that requires our most expensive counter-measures, like a missile defense system. Still, what other game is in town?

]]> By: Daniel Nexon http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/comment-page-1/#comment-207236 Daniel Nexon Mon, 13 Aug 2007 05:08:21 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/#comment-207236 Henry, have you seen the Snyder et al. piece that's going to be presented at APSA? Worth some blog time. Henry, have you seen the Snyder et al. piece that’s going to be presented at APSA? Worth some blog time.

]]> By: sglover http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/comment-page-1/#comment-207233 sglover Mon, 13 Aug 2007 02:34:15 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/#comment-207233 I should have made this clear: Kristol and Kagan may try to distract their audience through the usual disingenuous games, but as ever, they're essentially shilling for the Bush approach. Hence my objection to the lame attempts to paint some bogus contrast between the Idiot Prince and the Senile Actor. I should have made this clear: Kristol and Kagan may try to distract their audience through the usual disingenuous games, but as ever, they’re essentially shilling for the Bush approach. Hence my objection to the lame attempts to paint some bogus contrast between the Idiot Prince and the Senile Actor.

]]> By: sglover http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/comment-page-1/#comment-207231 sglover Mon, 13 Aug 2007 02:31:16 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/#comment-207231 <i>Neo-Reaganism is quite detached from the actual actions of Reagan. Reagan negotiated with the enemies of the US, and even went so far as to proposed reduction and even elimination of nuclear weapons. Reagan fought an ideological struggle against communism, but he was always clear that the struggle was to defeat communism, not to create an American Empire. I oppose many, if not most, Reagan policies, but in the end of the day he did understand that the world was not black and white.</i> That's a crock from start to finish. Bush the Lesser is IN EVERY WAY the intellectual and moral heir to the sainted Reagan. Do you really believe that it's a coincidence that so many of the Cheney crime syndicate's most odious policies are, time and again, shepherded through by some guy who got his start as Assistant Deputy Something-Something in the Reagan White House? Wolfowitz, Negroponte, Poindexter, Rove (Atwater without the brain tumor) -- these guys are doing just as Da Gipper intended. Neo-Reaganism is quite detached from the actual actions of Reagan. Reagan negotiated with the enemies of the US, and even went so far as to proposed reduction and even elimination of nuclear weapons. Reagan fought an ideological struggle against communism, but he was always clear that the struggle was to defeat communism, not to create an American Empire. I oppose many, if not most, Reagan policies, but in the end of the day he did understand that the world was not black and white.

That’s a crock from start to finish. Bush the Lesser is IN EVERY WAY the intellectual and moral heir to the sainted Reagan. Do you really believe that it’s a coincidence that so many of the Cheney crime syndicate’s most odious policies are, time and again, shepherded through by some guy who got his start as Assistant Deputy Something-Something in the Reagan White House? Wolfowitz, Negroponte, Poindexter, Rove (Atwater without the brain tumor)—these guys are doing just as Da Gipper intended.

]]> By: Planeshift http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/comment-page-1/#comment-207225 Planeshift Sun, 12 Aug 2007 22:14:49 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/#comment-207225 "so after the war the expectations of people vis-a-vis the government are larger" Except in the neo-con world there will be no such time as after the war as they want a perpetual conflict - the "war on terror" is ideal for this. “so after the war the expectations of people vis-a-vis the government are larger”

Except in the neo-con world there will be no such time as after the war as they want a perpetual conflict – the “war on terror” is ideal for this.

]]> By: P O'Neill http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/comment-page-1/#comment-207221 P O'Neill Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:41:20 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/#comment-207221 Apart from anything else, the historical record would seem to be that wars make countries more "liberal." The government needs more revenue and it asks more of people during a war, and so after the war the expectations of people vis-a-vis the government are larger. One reason maybe why Bush is so insistent on running the war with a small army and with no increase in taxes. Apart from anything else, the historical record would seem to be that wars make countries more “liberal.” The government needs more revenue and it asks more of people during a war, and so after the war the expectations of people vis-a-vis the government are larger. One reason maybe why Bush is so insistent on running the war with a small army and with no increase in taxes.

]]> By: Henry http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/comment-page-1/#comment-207220 Henry Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:26:04 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/#comment-207220 yep stuart, I know you are usually supposed to claim that this is a very serious, thoughtful, argument that has never been made in such detail or with such care, but in truth it is a conference paper that I wrote in a rush and haven't really looked at since, and that has, I am sure, all sorts of niggling little errors. yep stuart, I know you are usually supposed to claim that this is a very serious, thoughtful, argument that has never been made in such detail or with such care, but in truth it is a conference paper that I wrote in a rush and haven’t really looked at since, and that has, I am sure, all sorts of niggling little errors.

]]> By: togolosh http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/comment-page-1/#comment-207218 togolosh Sun, 12 Aug 2007 20:32:56 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/#comment-207218 Neo-Reaganism is quite detached from the actual actions of Reagan. Reagan negotiated with the enemies of the US, and even went so far as to proposed reduction and even elimination of nuclear weapons. Reagan fought an ideological struggle against communism, but he was always clear that the struggle was to defeat communism, not to create an American Empire. I oppose many, if not most, Reagan policies, but in the end of the day he did understand that the world was not black and white. Neo-Reaganism is quite detached from the actual actions of Reagan. Reagan negotiated with the enemies of the US, and even went so far as to proposed reduction and even elimination of nuclear weapons. Reagan fought an ideological struggle against communism, but he was always clear that the struggle was to defeat communism, not to create an American Empire. I oppose many, if not most, Reagan policies, but in the end of the day he did understand that the world was not black and white.

]]> By: stuart http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/comment-page-1/#comment-207215 stuart Sun, 12 Aug 2007 20:18:53 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/#comment-207215 Interesting article, was worth the time to read. Noticed a few typos as I went through it: Page 12, Line 1 nade -> made Page 23, Last paragraph - two double quotes at start of Brooks quote Page 25, Last paragraph - space missing between neo-conservatives and to in the first sentence. Interesting article, was worth the time to read.

Noticed a few typos as I went through it:

Page 12, Line 1 nade -> made
Page 23, Last paragraph – two double quotes at start of Brooks quote
Page 25, Last paragraph – space missing between neo-conservatives and to in the first sentence.

]]> By: P O'Neill http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/comment-page-1/#comment-207214 P O'Neill Sun, 12 Aug 2007 19:56:27 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/#comment-207214 I started reading and I thought "Oh god, there's another Kagan?" But you mean Robert and not a hopefully fictional William. I started reading and I thought “Oh god, there’s another Kagan?” But you mean Robert and not a hopefully fictional William.

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