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	<title>Comments on: Another post on dating strategies</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: bi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/comment-page-2/#comment-207670</link>
		<dc:creator>bi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Aug 2007 05:33:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/#comment-207670</guid>
		<description>&quot;I see a lot of weaving and dodging and just plain shitting on occam&#039;s razor in this thread because this article upends people&#039;s cozy expectations.&quot;

Where &quot;Occam&#039;s Razor&quot; entails taking one comment #9 and calling it &quot;a lot of weaving and dodging&quot;. And that comment isn&#039;t even from a scientist writing in a scientific publication.

But I don&#039;t see anything suggesting that the survey was made specifically to allow people to conclude silly things about gender roles. Nothing at all. If people want to conclude weird things from the survey results, is it the survey&#039;s fault? Or maybe Occam&#039;s Razor demands that we see an ulterior agenda behind the survey itself even if none&#039;s apparent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;I see a lot of weaving and dodging and just plain shitting on occam&#8217;s razor in this thread because this article upends people&#8217;s cozy expectations.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Where &#8220;Occam&#8217;s Razor&#8221; entails taking one comment #9 and calling it &#8220;a lot of weaving and dodging&#8221;. And that comment isn&#8217;t even from a scientist writing in a scientific publication.</p>

	<p>But I don&#8217;t see anything suggesting that the survey was made specifically to allow people to conclude silly things about gender roles. Nothing at all. If people want to conclude weird things from the survey results, is it the survey&#8217;s fault? Or maybe Occam&#8217;s Razor demands that we see an ulterior agenda behind the survey itself even if none&#8217;s apparent.</p>
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		<title>By: battlepanda</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/comment-page-2/#comment-207634</link>
		<dc:creator>battlepanda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 02:39:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/#comment-207634</guid>
		<description>The article was a missed opportunity. Kolata got bogged down in getting a mathematician to laboriously prove a trivial point. Look how lightly the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3936&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;New Scientist&lt;/a&gt; took care of the issues that made up the meat of Kolata&#039;s article:

&quot;In surveys since the 1960s, men typically report having more sexual partners and than do women - a statistically impossible feat.&quot;

She also got caught out for the sloppiness of conflating the mean with the median, which shows not that she is stupid but that she might have thought her readers are. 

But no matter. As Katherine said above, we&#039;re missing the larger point:

&quot;And I’d also like to call bullshit on this statement in comment #9:  since a man would have to persuade many women while a woman need only be easy to persuade

This is exactly the kind of bullshit that flawed survey results are used to justify.&quot;

Nice. I see a lot of weaving and dodging and just plain shitting on occam&#039;s razor in this thread because this article upends people&#039;s cozy expectations. Let&#039;s unpack that statement (#9) a little. &quot;A man would have to persuade many woman&quot; -- It&#039;s normal for men to want to have many partners -- and &quot;a woman need only be easy to persuade&quot; -- a woman who have many partners is an abnormal slut.

As the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3936&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;New Scientist&lt;/a&gt; article I mentioned, researchers at Ohio university found that: 

&quot;Women change their answers depending on whether or not they believe they will be caught out not telling the truth, the researchers found. The number of sexual partners a woman reported nearly doubled when women thought they were hooked up to a lie detector machine.&quot;

Somehow I find this a more plausable source of the gap than all those women getting raped in their sleep without remembering it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The article was a missed opportunity. Kolata got bogged down in getting a mathematician to laboriously prove a trivial point. Look how lightly the <a href="http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3936" rel="nofollow">New Scientist</a> took care of the issues that made up the meat of Kolata&#8217;s article:</p>

	<p>&#8220;In surveys since the 1960s, men typically report having more sexual partners and than do women &#8211; a statistically impossible feat.&#8221;</p>

	<p>She also got caught out for the sloppiness of conflating the mean with the median, which shows not that she is stupid but that she might have thought her readers are.</p>

	<p>But no matter. As Katherine said above, we&#8217;re missing the larger point:</p>

	<p>&#8220;And I&#8217;d also like to call bullshit on this statement in comment #9:  since a man would have to persuade many women while a woman need only be easy to persuade</p>

	<p>This is exactly the kind of bullshit that flawed survey results are used to justify.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Nice. I see a lot of weaving and dodging and just plain shitting on occam&#8217;s razor in this thread because this article upends people&#8217;s cozy expectations. Let&#8217;s unpack that statement (#9) a little. &#8220;A man would have to persuade many woman&#8221;&#8212;It&#8217;s normal for men to want to have many partners&#8212;and &#8220;a woman need only be easy to persuade&#8221;&#8212;a woman who have many partners is an abnormal slut.</p>

	<p>As the <a href="http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3936" rel="nofollow">New Scientist</a> article I mentioned, researchers at Ohio university found that:</p>

	<p>&#8220;Women change their answers depending on whether or not they believe they will be caught out not telling the truth, the researchers found. The number of sexual partners a woman reported nearly doubled when women thought they were hooked up to a lie detector machine.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Somehow I find this a more plausable source of the gap than all those women getting raped in their sleep without remembering it.</p>
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		<title>By: bi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/comment-page-1/#comment-207586</link>
		<dc:creator>bi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2007 08:01:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/#comment-207586</guid>
		<description>s/doesn&#039;t whether/doesn&#039;t matter whether/

&quot;I meant these kinds of figures, the like of which is fairly frequently bandied about, rather than this particular set of figures&quot;

... Oh, _duh_. As always, truth needs no facts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>s/doesn&#8217;t whether/doesn&#8217;t matter whether/</p>

	<p>&#8220;I meant these kinds of figures, the like of which is fairly frequently bandied about, rather than this particular set of figures&#8221;</p>

	<p>&#8230; Oh, <em>duh</em>. As always, truth needs no facts.</p>
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		<title>By: brooksfoe</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/comment-page-1/#comment-207564</link>
		<dc:creator>brooksfoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:27:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/#comment-207564</guid>
		<description>To my knowledge, no one has yet pointed to the obvious distortions in these figures caused by men who rape women while they are unconscious, which might explain some of the disparity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>To my knowledge, no one has yet pointed to the obvious distortions in these figures caused by men who rape women while they are unconscious, which might explain some of the disparity.</p>
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		<title>By: J Thomas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/comment-page-1/#comment-207557</link>
		<dc:creator>J Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2007 03:03:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/#comment-207557</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;And I’d also like to call bullshit on this statement in comment #9:  since a man would have to persuade many women while a woman need only be easy to persuade&lt;/i&gt;

OK, you&#039;ve called. Want to raise?

What is your objection?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>And I&#8217;d also like to call bullshit on this statement in comment #9:  since a man would have to persuade many women while a woman need only be easy to persuade</i></p>

	<p>OK, you&#8217;ve called. Want to raise?</p>

	<p>What is your objection?</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Weiner</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/comment-page-1/#comment-207546</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Weiner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 19:55:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/#comment-207546</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Brits and Yanks might have very different sexual lies&lt;/i&gt;

Looks like their sexual lies are pretty similar.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Brits and Yanks might have very different sexual lies</i></p>

	<p>Looks like their sexual lies are pretty similar.</p>
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		<title>By: Katherine</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/comment-page-1/#comment-207522</link>
		<dc:creator>Katherine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:47:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/#comment-207522</guid>
		<description>Bi, either I&#039;m being stupid, or your sentence doesn&#039;t scan.  Nevertheless, I meant these kinds of figures, the like of which is fairly frequently bandied about, rather than this particular set of figures.  Sorry if that was not clear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Bi, either I&#8217;m being stupid, or your sentence doesn&#8217;t scan.  Nevertheless, I meant these kinds of figures, the like of which is fairly frequently bandied about, rather than this particular set of figures.  Sorry if that was not clear.</p>
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		<title>By: will</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/comment-page-1/#comment-207520</link>
		<dc:creator>will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:16:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/#comment-207520</guid>
		<description>&quot;Will says that the typical woman probably has fewer partners than the typical man, but I think Will is not imagining the small-of-stature, shy, non-athletic male.&quot;

Aww, man.  It&#039;s as if kharris looked up my Facebook profile.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Will says that the typical woman probably has fewer partners than the typical man, but I think Will is not imagining the small-of-stature, shy, non-athletic male.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Aww, man.  It&#8217;s as if kharris looked up my Facebook profile.</p>
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		<title>By: bi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/comment-page-1/#comment-207515</link>
		<dc:creator>bi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 14:55:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/#comment-207515</guid>
		<description>&quot;justify cod-scientific conclusions about male/female gender roles and sad excuses for evolutionary biological &#039;reasoning&#039; about the differences&quot;

Exactly which scientific paper, in which scientific publication, uses these survey results to &quot;reason&quot; about biological differences?

Or maybe it doesn&#039;t whether this entire premise is true, and what&#039;s important is that it serves at the pleasure of &quot;a wider point&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;justify cod-scientific conclusions about male/female gender roles and sad excuses for evolutionary biological &#8216;reasoning&#8217; about the differences&#8221;</p>

	<p>Exactly which scientific paper, in which scientific publication, uses these survey results to &#8220;reason&#8221; about biological differences?</p>

	<p>Or maybe it doesn&#8217;t whether this entire premise is true, and what&#8217;s important is that it serves at the pleasure of &#8220;a wider point&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: kharris</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/comment-page-1/#comment-207510</link>
		<dc:creator>kharris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 12:14:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/#comment-207510</guid>
		<description>j. ellenberg,

If we pay strict attention to your point, we miss all the fun of thinking up reasons that Brits and Yanks might have very different sexual lies.  When statistics stand in the way of having a good time, I say stuff stats.  

Speaking of a good time, once again, my mumber is 555-....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>j. ellenberg,</p>

	<p>If we pay strict attention to your point, we miss all the fun of thinking up reasons that Brits and Yanks might have very different sexual lies.  When statistics stand in the way of having a good time, I say stuff stats.</p>

	<p>Speaking of a good time, once again, my mumber is 555-&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Katherine</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/comment-page-1/#comment-207503</link>
		<dc:creator>Katherine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 10:39:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/#comment-207503</guid>
		<description>And I&#039;d also like to call bullshit on this statement in comment #9: &lt;i&gt; since a man would have to persuade many women while a woman need only be easy to persuade &lt;/i&gt;

This is exactly the kind of bullshit that flawed survey results are used to justify.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>And I&#8217;d also like to call bullshit on this statement in comment #9: <i> since a man would have to persuade many women while a woman need only be easy to persuade </i></p>

	<p>This is exactly the kind of bullshit that flawed survey results are used to justify.</p>
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		<title>By: Katherine</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/comment-page-1/#comment-207502</link>
		<dc:creator>Katherine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 10:04:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/#comment-207502</guid>
		<description>The point of the article, and the analysis of the figures as quoted in comments #27 and #40 above, was the continuing erroneous survey results on male and female sexual behaviour.  And, in a wider point I think, the numerous times in which these erroneous figures have been used to justify cod-scientific conclusions about male/female gender roles and sad excuses for evolutionary biological &quot;reasoning&quot; about the differences.

The point of the article was not to bitch on about means, medians or statistical analysis (or not) by scientific reporters.  It&#039;s a bit sad that this has been lost.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The point of the article, and the analysis of the figures as quoted in comments #27 and #40 above, was the continuing erroneous survey results on male and female sexual behaviour.  And, in a wider point I think, the numerous times in which these erroneous figures have been used to justify cod-scientific conclusions about male/female gender roles and sad excuses for evolutionary biological &#8220;reasoning&#8221; about the differences.</p>

	<p>The point of the article was not to bitch on about means, medians or statistical analysis (or not) by scientific reporters.  It&#8217;s a bit sad that this has been lost.</p>
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		<title>By: J Thomas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/comment-page-1/#comment-207493</link>
		<dc:creator>J Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 03:09:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/#comment-207493</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;    What I did was to get a copy of the CDC report and used the data in its tables. It groups people into four groups and gives the percentage of men and women in each group: 

    0-1 partner: Men, 16.6. Women, 25.0.
    2-6 partners: Men, 33.8. Women, 44.3.
    7-14 partners: Men, 20.7. Women, 21.3.
    15 or more partners: Men, 28.9. Women, 9.4.

    From these figures you can estimate the total partners claimed by each sex. I got between 40 percent and 75 percent more male than female partners depending on how you guess the average on each interval. &lt;/i&gt;

There you have it. GIGO.

Dilemma resolved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>    What I did was to get a copy of the <span class="caps">CDC</span> report and used the data in its tables. It groups people into four groups and gives the percentage of men and women in each group:</i></p>

	<p>0-1 partner: Men, 16.6. Women, 25.0.<br />
2-6 partners: Men, 33.8. Women, 44.3.<br />
7-14 partners: Men, 20.7. Women, 21.3.<br />
15 or more partners: Men, 28.9. Women, 9.4.</p>

	<p>From these figures you can estimate the total partners claimed by each sex. I got between 40 percent and 75 percent more male than female partners depending on how you guess the average on each interval. </p>

	<p>There you have it. <span class="caps">GIGO</span>.</p>

	<p>Dilemma resolved.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Ellenberg</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/comment-page-1/#comment-207473</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Ellenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 20:33:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/#comment-207473</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry, I just have to repeat again that &lt;b&gt;there was no difference between the British and American numbers&lt;/b&gt;.  The reported medians were 7 for men, 4 for women in both cases.  The apparent difference is  a result of the Times reporting the median for the US study and the mean for the UK study.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m sorry, I just have to repeat again that <b>there was no difference between the British and American numbers</b>.  The reported medians were 7 for men, 4 for women in both cases.  The apparent difference is  a result of the Times reporting the median for the US study and the mean for the UK study.</p>
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		<title>By: kharris</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/comment-page-1/#comment-207464</link>
		<dc:creator>kharris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 18:50:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/13/another-post-on-dating-strategies/#comment-207464</guid>
		<description>Will says that the typical woman probably has fewer partners than the typical man, but I think Will is not imagining the small-of-stature, shy, non-athletic male.  A similar female could find a partner (my number is 555-...) if she were not picky.  A low-end male is often a pathetic creature, when it comes to mating opportunity.  This is true among, bovines, equines, baboons, hunter-gatherers and college boys.

As to the disparity between US and UK males&#039; success rates, there is a simple explanation.  In many parts of the US, population density is very low.  Women are scarce.  If there is one woman within a day&#039;s drive who is a willing partner, you&#039;re lucky, boys.  So especially for males in the vast grasslands and the western mountains, even one partner is something of an accomplishment.  You don&#039;t know what it&#039;s like...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Will says that the typical woman probably has fewer partners than the typical man, but I think Will is not imagining the small-of-stature, shy, non-athletic male.  A similar female could find a partner (my number is 555-&#8230;) if she were not picky.  A low-end male is often a pathetic creature, when it comes to mating opportunity.  This is true among, bovines, equines, baboons, hunter-gatherers and college boys.</p>

	<p>As to the disparity between US and UK males&#8217; success rates, there is a simple explanation.  In many parts of the US, population density is very low.  Women are scarce.  If there is one woman within a day&#8217;s drive who is a willing partner, you&#8217;re lucky, boys.  So especially for males in the vast grasslands and the western mountains, even one partner is something of an accomplishment.  You don&#8217;t know what it&#8217;s like&#8230;</p>
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