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	<title>Comments on: Ancient Athenian Law Bleg, Special Cleruchy Edition</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/19/ancient-athenian-law-bleg-special-cleruchy-edition/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Katherine</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/19/ancient-athenian-law-bleg-special-cleruchy-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-207847</link>
		<dc:creator>Katherine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 09:46:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/19/ancient-athenian-law-bleg-special-cleruchy-edition/#comment-207847</guid>
		<description>This rather reminds me of having to learn Roman Law in my first year at university. I always thought the point might be to demonstrate the whole of an alien legal system as a way of showing that there are many different ways of constructing legal structures. An old fashioned way of teaching comparative law perhaps. Which therefore made me wonder sometimes why we bothered going into some of nitty gritty details and why there was also a comparative law option in the third year too.

Which is a roundabout way of asking – why are you asking this question?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This rather reminds me of having to learn Roman Law in my first year at university. I always thought the point might be to demonstrate the whole of an alien legal system as a way of showing that there are many different ways of constructing legal structures. An old fashioned way of teaching comparative law perhaps. Which therefore made me wonder sometimes why we bothered going into some of nitty gritty details and why there was also a comparative law option in the third year too.</p>

	<p>Which is a roundabout way of asking &#8211; why are you asking this question?</p>
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		<title>By: Diogenes McFinklestein</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/19/ancient-athenian-law-bleg-special-cleruchy-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-207808</link>
		<dc:creator>Diogenes McFinklestein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Aug 2007 18:51:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/19/ancient-athenian-law-bleg-special-cleruchy-edition/#comment-207808</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The Spartans at some period executed some people by throwing them (alive) into a pit (_Keadas_ in Pausanias, Kaiadas in Thucydides). Euthyphro’s father might be taken to have seen the ditch as the nearest equivalent on Naxos. There’s often a Sparta vs. Athens subtext in Plato.&lt;/i&gt;

Jim, Athens too practiced execution by precipitation into &quot;the pit.&quot; But I&#039;ve always thought that what Euthyphro&#039;s father does is quite different: he threw the offending workman into a &lt;i&gt;taphos,&lt;/i&gt; a trench, presumably not to kill him by the fall but to keep him in place.  The death strikes me as akin to the practice of exposure of infants, where the parents are not subject to &lt;i&gt;miasma&lt;/i&gt; since, technically, they didn&#039;t kill the infant, wild beasts (or whatever) did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>The Spartans at some period executed some people by throwing them (alive) into a pit (_Keadas_ in Pausanias, Kaiadas in Thucydides). Euthyphro&#8217;s father might be taken to have seen the ditch as the nearest equivalent on Naxos. There&#8217;s often a Sparta vs. Athens subtext in Plato.</i></p>

	<p>Jim, Athens too practiced execution by precipitation into &#8220;the pit.&#8221; But I&#8217;ve always thought that what Euthyphro&#8217;s father does is quite different: he threw the offending workman into a <i>taphos,</i> a trench, presumably not to kill him by the fall but to keep him in place.  The death strikes me as akin to the practice of exposure of infants, where the parents are not subject to <i>miasma</i> since, technically, they didn&#8217;t kill the infant, wild beasts (or whatever) did.</p>
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		<title>By: John Holbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/19/ancient-athenian-law-bleg-special-cleruchy-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-207723</link>
		<dc:creator>John Holbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Aug 2007 16:29:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/19/ancient-athenian-law-bleg-special-cleruchy-edition/#comment-207723</guid>
		<description>Oh wait, they DO have it. I must have entered the search wrong before. Oh happy day! Tomorrow, that is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oh wait, they DO have it. I must have entered the search wrong before. Oh happy day! Tomorrow, that is.</p>
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		<title>By: R</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/19/ancient-athenian-law-bleg-special-cleruchy-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-207722</link>
		<dc:creator>R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Aug 2007 16:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/19/ancient-athenian-law-bleg-special-cleruchy-edition/#comment-207722</guid>
		<description>Interesting points about E&#039;s father&#039;s intentions.  I suppose one answer is that throwing the guy in a ditch for a week or two wouldn&#039;t in itself make death by exposure inevitable (depending on time of year, I guess, which I don&#039;t think we know), as long as food and water were provided.  Perhaps E&#039;s father provided some, but in the event not enough, or the conditions were otherwise borderline?  I can&#039;t imagine there&#039;s any way to know.  But it certainly seems that keeping the guy alive could not have been a priority, and the whole scenario is just plain weird.

As to the business of the consultation with the religious advisors in Athens, and the failure to consult Euthyphro instead:  the advisor in question is actually a state official, an &lt;i&gt;exegetes&lt;/i&gt;.  We don&#039;t know a tremendous amount about the &lt;i&gt;exegetai&lt;/i&gt; (I think this passage in &lt;i&gt;Euthyphro&lt;/i&gt; is their first attestation), but they appear to have been consulted on matters that might have sacred law implications, and though there&#039;s no reason to suggest their answers had the force of law, they must have been considered fairly authoritative.  And by virtue of being city officials were presumably worth consulting even if your son considered himself an expert.  (The &lt;i&gt;exegetai&lt;/i&gt; come up in other atypical cases, such as the Demosthenes speech [47, I think?] in which the speaker discusses the possibility of prosecuting the murder of a former slave, where they advise on available legal procedure.)  So, although I don&#039;t think the consultation precludes seeing a snub to Euthyphro, I don&#039;t think it entails it.  

And the question of pollution/purification requirements when a slave is killed might well have been a difficult one.  There are reasons to doubt the centrality of miasma to Athenian homicide law, and one of those reasons is that, as far as the evidence indicates, there was no fixed penalty in Athenian law for the murder of a slave (or an alien), in contrast to the fixed penalty of death for murder of a citizen.  So pollution might not have been a simple binary question, and official advice on this pretty odd set of facts would probably have been a good idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Interesting points about E&#8217;s father&#8217;s intentions.  I suppose one answer is that throwing the guy in a ditch for a week or two wouldn&#8217;t in itself make death by exposure inevitable (depending on time of year, I guess, which I don&#8217;t think we know), as long as food and water were provided.  Perhaps E&#8217;s father provided some, but in the event not enough, or the conditions were otherwise borderline?  I can&#8217;t imagine there&#8217;s any way to know.  But it certainly seems that keeping the guy alive could not have been a priority, and the whole scenario is just plain weird.</p>

	<p>As to the business of the consultation with the religious advisors in Athens, and the failure to consult Euthyphro instead:  the advisor in question is actually a state official, an <i>exegetes</i>.  We don&#8217;t know a tremendous amount about the <i>exegetai</i> (I think this passage in <i>Euthyphro</i> is their first attestation), but they appear to have been consulted on matters that might have sacred law implications, and though there&#8217;s no reason to suggest their answers had the force of law, they must have been considered fairly authoritative.  And by virtue of being city officials were presumably worth consulting even if your son considered himself an expert.  (The <i>exegetai</i> come up in other atypical cases, such as the Demosthenes speech [47, I think?] in which the speaker discusses the possibility of prosecuting the murder of a former slave, where they advise on available legal procedure.)  So, although I don&#8217;t think the consultation precludes seeing a snub to Euthyphro, I don&#8217;t think it entails it.</p>

	<p>And the question of pollution/purification requirements when a slave is killed might well have been a difficult one.  There are reasons to doubt the centrality of miasma to Athenian homicide law, and one of those reasons is that, as far as the evidence indicates, there was no fixed penalty in Athenian law for the murder of a slave (or an alien), in contrast to the fixed penalty of death for murder of a citizen.  So pollution might not have been a simple binary question, and official advice on this pretty odd set of facts would probably have been a good idea.</p>
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		<title>By: John Holbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/19/ancient-athenian-law-bleg-special-cleruchy-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-207719</link>
		<dc:creator>John Holbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Aug 2007 16:13:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/19/ancient-athenian-law-bleg-special-cleruchy-edition/#comment-207719</guid>
		<description>Thanks Matt, my library lacks the book. I&#039;m ordering it for them but I don&#039;t have it yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks Matt, my library lacks the book. I&#8217;m ordering it for them but I don&#8217;t have it yet.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/19/ancient-athenian-law-bleg-special-cleruchy-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-207717</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Aug 2007 15:42:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/19/ancient-athenian-law-bleg-special-cleruchy-edition/#comment-207717</guid>
		<description>Again I&#039;d recommend looking at the Cambridge Companion to Ancient Greek Law- lots of good articles, but perhaps more important a very large bibliography of books and articles, many of which touch on these subjects.  Why not consult the experts?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Again I&#8217;d recommend looking at the Cambridge Companion to Ancient Greek Law- lots of good articles, but perhaps more important a very large bibliography of books and articles, many of which touch on these subjects.  Why not consult the experts?</p>
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		<title>By: Another Damned Medievalist</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/19/ancient-athenian-law-bleg-special-cleruchy-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-207714</link>
		<dc:creator>Another Damned Medievalist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Aug 2007 15:29:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The relative crimes of murder (and of a slave, which could make a difference because it&#039;s not only murder of a human, but a crime against property) and the maltreatment of a guest -- or the guest&#039;s blatant violation of hospitality might well come into it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The relative crimes of murder (and of a slave, which could make a difference because it&#8217;s not only murder of a human, but a crime against property) and the maltreatment of a guest&#8212;or the guest&#8217;s blatant violation of hospitality might well come into it.</p>
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		<title>By: John Holbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/19/ancient-athenian-law-bleg-special-cleruchy-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-207707</link>
		<dc:creator>John Holbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Aug 2007 14:46:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/19/ancient-athenian-law-bleg-special-cleruchy-edition/#comment-207707</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s certainly a possible view, aaron. In &quot;Cratylus&quot;, Socrates speaks of &#039;the great Euthyphro&#039; which could be an ironic comment on his perpetual negligence in everyone&#039;s eyes, or an ironic commentary on his actual prominence in certain circles. Go figure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>That&#8217;s certainly a possible view, aaron. In &#8220;Cratylus&#8221;, Socrates speaks of &#8216;the great Euthyphro&#8217; which could be an ironic comment on his perpetual negligence in everyone&#8217;s eyes, or an ironic commentary on his actual prominence in certain circles. Go figure.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Boyden</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/19/ancient-athenian-law-bleg-special-cleruchy-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-207700</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Boyden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Aug 2007 14:17:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/19/ancient-athenian-law-bleg-special-cleruchy-edition/#comment-207700</guid>
		<description>I always thought Euthyphro&#039;s claims to be ignored in the assembly should be taken with a grain of salt.  Even religious leaders who are tremendously influential will always talk about how nobody listens to religious leaders and that&#039;s why the world is such a mess.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I always thought Euthyphro&#8217;s claims to be ignored in the assembly should be taken with a grain of salt.  Even religious leaders who are tremendously influential will always talk about how nobody listens to religious leaders and that&#8217;s why the world is such a mess.</p>
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		<title>By: John Holbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/19/ancient-athenian-law-bleg-special-cleruchy-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-207699</link>
		<dc:creator>John Holbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Aug 2007 14:15:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/19/ancient-athenian-law-bleg-special-cleruchy-edition/#comment-207699</guid>
		<description>It strikes me as at least as likely that the dad was pissed at the cost to him of a dead slave, dreading the cost of legal complications, and doing a kind of half-way thing (just put him in the ditch for now) as a way of not thinking the problem through.

I said above that he was probably thinking &#039;when the messenger gets back, we&#039;ll kill him then.&#039; But it would be equally plausible, say, to enforce exile by throwing the guy on some boat and paying the captain to not let him go until they got to Thrace, or wherever. In murder trials, the defendent was traditionally given an option of self-exile at an early stage in the trial. So exile would be an orthodox solution, in its way. Maybe dad just hadn&#039;t worked out cost-effective solution he liked yet, and the guy up and died on him. In religious terms, the point is to get the guy away from you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It strikes me as at least as likely that the dad was pissed at the cost to him of a dead slave, dreading the cost of legal complications, and doing a kind of half-way thing (just put him in the ditch for now) as a way of not thinking the problem through.</p>

	<p>I said above that he was probably thinking &#8216;when the messenger gets back, we&#8217;ll kill him then.&#8217; But it would be equally plausible, say, to enforce exile by throwing the guy on some boat and paying the captain to not let him go until they got to Thrace, or wherever. In murder trials, the defendent was traditionally given an option of self-exile at an early stage in the trial. So exile would be an orthodox solution, in its way. Maybe dad just hadn&#8217;t worked out cost-effective solution he liked yet, and the guy up and died on him. In religious terms, the point is to get the guy away from you.</p>
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		<title>By: jim</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/19/ancient-athenian-law-bleg-special-cleruchy-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-207689</link>
		<dc:creator>jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Aug 2007 12:41:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/19/ancient-athenian-law-bleg-special-cleruchy-edition/#comment-207689</guid>
		<description>The Spartans at some period executed some people by throwing them (alive) into a pit (_Keadas_ in Pausanias, _Kaiadas_ in Thucydides).  Euthyphro&#039;s father might be taken to have seen the ditch as the nearest equivalent on Naxos.  There&#039;s often a Sparta vs. Athens subtext in Plato.

Another vote for Belle&#039;s suggestion about cleansing the farm.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The Spartans at some period executed some people by throwing them (alive) into a pit (_Keadas_ in Pausanias, <em>Kaiadas</em> in Thucydides).  Euthyphro&#8217;s father might be taken to have seen the ditch as the nearest equivalent on Naxos.  There&#8217;s often a Sparta vs. Athens subtext in Plato.</p>

	<p>Another vote for Belle&#8217;s suggestion about cleansing the farm.</p>
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		<title>By: John Holbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/19/ancient-athenian-law-bleg-special-cleruchy-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-207687</link>
		<dc:creator>John Holbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Aug 2007 11:56:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/19/ancient-athenian-law-bleg-special-cleruchy-edition/#comment-207687</guid>
		<description>Your &#039;perhaps&#039; is not unrelated to the fact that, in the dialogue, Euthyphro compares himself to Zeus, and his father to Cronos, John.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Your &#8216;perhaps&#8217; is not unrelated to the fact that, in the dialogue, Euthyphro compares himself to Zeus, and his father to Cronos, John.</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/19/ancient-athenian-law-bleg-special-cleruchy-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-207680</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Aug 2007 11:23:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Perhaps Euthyphro and his father followed different tendencies in a stereotyped generational conflict, so that Euthyphro could not be an authority for his father (beyond the difficulties of a son exercising authority over a father).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Perhaps Euthyphro and his father followed different tendencies in a stereotyped generational conflict, so that Euthyphro could not be an authority for his father (beyond the difficulties of a son exercising authority over a father).</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/19/ancient-athenian-law-bleg-special-cleruchy-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-207679</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Aug 2007 11:21:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/19/ancient-athenian-law-bleg-special-cleruchy-edition/#comment-207679</guid>
		<description>Not completely on topic: this seems to be a case where religion / philosophy produce a sort of proto-order in the absence of a legalistic state order. Law in Athens was somewhat weakly developed, and Greek international law still more so. In Socrates and Plato religion was developed in a philosophical, rational direction, but it still performed religious functions and intended to replace traditionalist Homeric (Pythagorean, etc.) religion. And at the same time, religion performed what we&#039;d call political or legal functions (as it does in Islam, and in China if you call Confucianism a religion).

Other cases where religious law provides a partial order in the absence of a state (or in a violent multi-state system) include early Iceland, Tibet during much of its history, medieval Europe, and lawless areas like the Balkans or the Atlas mountains in N. Africa. 

For us philosophy, religion, law, and literature are four different things, but in early Athens Hoer was taken as a religious, legal, and philosophical authority and could be authoritative in dispute resolution -- in China the &quot;Book of Songs&quot; had a similiar authority. (Havelock, &quot;Preface to Plato&quot;). Even to the extent that law became differentiated in Athens, civil law, criminal law, policy debate, and &quot;constitutional law&quot; could all be mushed together.

Analysis is intrinsically a good thing, but not if you lose awareness of the interrelationships. Government and churches can be analyzed as  economic entities, finance and churches has political power, and so on. (Literature and religion seem to be dwindling in our world; it&#039;s hard to remember that poets used to be important people.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Not completely on topic: this seems to be a case where religion / philosophy produce a sort of proto-order in the absence of a legalistic state order. Law in Athens was somewhat weakly developed, and Greek international law still more so. In Socrates and Plato religion was developed in a philosophical, rational direction, but it still performed religious functions and intended to replace traditionalist Homeric (Pythagorean, etc.) religion. And at the same time, religion performed what we&#8217;d call political or legal functions (as it does in Islam, and in China if you call Confucianism a religion).</p>

	<p>Other cases where religious law provides a partial order in the absence of a state (or in a violent multi-state system) include early Iceland, Tibet during much of its history, medieval Europe, and lawless areas like the Balkans or the Atlas mountains in N. Africa.</p>

	<p>For us philosophy, religion, law, and literature are four different things, but in early Athens Hoer was taken as a religious, legal, and philosophical authority and could be authoritative in dispute resolution&#8212;in China the &#8220;Book of Songs&#8221; had a similiar authority. (Havelock, &#8220;Preface to Plato&#8221;). Even to the extent that law became differentiated in Athens, civil law, criminal law, policy debate, and &#8220;constitutional law&#8221; could all be mushed together.</p>

	<p>Analysis is intrinsically a good thing, but not if you lose awareness of the interrelationships. Government and churches can be analyzed as  economic entities, finance and churches has political power, and so on. (Literature and religion seem to be dwindling in our world; it&#8217;s hard to remember that poets used to be important people.)</p>
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		<title>By: John Holbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/19/ancient-athenian-law-bleg-special-cleruchy-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-207676</link>
		<dc:creator>John Holbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Aug 2007 11:07:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/19/ancient-athenian-law-bleg-special-cleruchy-edition/#comment-207676</guid>
		<description>Since Euthyphro actually complains about how no one listens to him in the Assembly, it seems not much a stretch to consider that Euthyphro&#039;s resentment at lack of respect for his religious authority is a theme in the dialogue.

It also seems like an interesting question whether Plato&#039;s audience would assume that the dad was seeking advice about possible legal courses of action, or was instead just taking the law into his own hands and seeking possible religious advice. And if he was taking the law in his own hands: would it have been understandable that this is something someone might do - given the distance to Athens, complexity of an actual trial, so forth?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Since Euthyphro actually complains about how no one listens to him in the Assembly, it seems not much a stretch to consider that Euthyphro&#8217;s resentment at lack of respect for his religious authority is a theme in the dialogue.</p>

	<p>It also seems like an interesting question whether Plato&#8217;s audience would assume that the dad was seeking advice about possible legal courses of action, or was instead just taking the law into his own hands and seeking possible religious advice. And if he was taking the law in his own hands: would it have been understandable that this is something someone might do &#8211; given the distance to Athens, complexity of an actual trial, so forth?</p>
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