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	<title>Comments on: A perpetual declaration of war</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Decnavda</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/comment-page-3/#comment-208326</link>
		<dc:creator>Decnavda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 19:52:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/#comment-208326</guid>
		<description>&quot;Anway, it’t no more cowardly to attack a weaker nation with overwhelming force when they do something we don’t want, than it is to spank a child or a woman or some other weak person when they disobey.&quot;

Holy sh*t, did you just use the analogy of hitting women who disobey you as an argument *in favor* of your position!?!?  I mean, I hope future generations will be just as shocked at the idea of hitting children for disobedience as I am of hitting women for that reason, but seriously, in 2007, you actually said...?!?!?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Anway, it&#8217;t no more cowardly to attack a weaker nation with overwhelming force when they do something we don&#8217;t want, than it is to spank a child or a woman or some other weak person when they disobey.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Holy sh*t, did you just use the analogy of hitting women who disobey you as an argument <strong>in favor</strong> of your position<img src="?" alt="" border="0" />?  I mean, I hope future generations will be just as shocked at the idea of hitting children for disobedience as I am of hitting women for that reason, but seriously, in 2007, you actually said&#8230;?<img src="?" alt="" border="0" />?</p>
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		<title>By: richard</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/comment-page-3/#comment-208305</link>
		<dc:creator>richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 18:17:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/#comment-208305</guid>
		<description>Oh. That would include me. Sorry about that. I did think you&#039;d captured the tone of the discussion here remarkably well...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oh. That would include me. Sorry about that. I did think you&#8217;d captured the tone of the discussion here remarkably well&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: J Thomas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/comment-page-3/#comment-208275</link>
		<dc:creator>J Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 15:14:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/#comment-208275</guid>
		<description>sg, thank you. I should have put in some smilies or something, there was no way for people who didn&#039;t know me to know I was being ironic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>sg, thank you. I should have put in some smilies or something, there was no way for people who didn&#8217;t know me to know I was being ironic.</p>
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		<title>By: SG</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/comment-page-3/#comment-208265</link>
		<dc:creator>SG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 14:23:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/#comment-208265</guid>
		<description>j thomas, your irony has put my case much better than I could. Thank you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>j thomas, your irony has put my case much better than I could. Thank you!</p>
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		<title>By: richard</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/comment-page-3/#comment-208264</link>
		<dc:creator>richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 14:20:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/#comment-208264</guid>
		<description>Oh, and drawing direct parallels between other nation states and naughty children is the sort of thing that people objected to about the British Empire. Is j thomas sure he&#039;s ready to join Lord Curzon as a foreign policy thinker?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oh, and drawing direct parallels between other nation states and naughty children is the sort of thing that people objected to about the British Empire. Is j thomas sure he&#8217;s ready to join Lord Curzon as a foreign policy thinker?</p>
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		<title>By: richard</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/comment-page-3/#comment-208262</link>
		<dc:creator>richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 14:18:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/#comment-208262</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;wouldn’t we have an obligation not to spank our children? But what kind of a nation would we have if we didn’t spank children who misbehaved?&lt;/i&gt;

Current thinking, as espoused in child-rearing books, is that you should never spank children (yours or others&#039;). I suspect most parents find it hard to live up to this ideal, and there&#039;s still quite a bit of spanking going on, but many, many people will find your line of argument offensive rather than obvious.

ragout: yes, the Straits of Malacca are beyond the official, normal reach of the US Navy: that&#039;s not the only reason they&#039;re such a prime target for piracy, however; a high volume of poorly-registered shipping is also a factor. Long-haul transoceanic ships tend to be bigger and better tracked, fewer in number and have a harder time docking in placed where there&#039;s no control. International law and bilateral treaties are a big part of preventing piracy elsewhere: the US Navy&#039;s efforts shouldn&#039;t be exaggerated in keeping the seaways safe.

I&#039;ll grant that there&#039;s little piracy on the US coast. The Caribbean is another story, but with all those islands around, I guess your territorial waters exception excuses that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>wouldn&#8217;t we have an obligation not to spank our children? But what kind of a nation would we have if we didn&#8217;t spank children who misbehaved?</i></p>

	<p>Current thinking, as espoused in child-rearing books, is that you should never spank children (yours or others&#8217;). I suspect most parents find it hard to live up to this ideal, and there&#8217;s still quite a bit of spanking going on, but many, many people will find your line of argument offensive rather than obvious.</p>

	<p>ragout: yes, the Straits of Malacca are beyond the official, normal reach of the <span class="caps">US </span>Navy: that&#8217;s not the only reason they&#8217;re such a prime target for piracy, however; a high volume of poorly-registered shipping is also a factor. Long-haul transoceanic ships tend to be bigger and better tracked, fewer in number and have a harder time docking in placed where there&#8217;s no control. International law and bilateral treaties are a big part of preventing piracy elsewhere: the <span class="caps">US </span>Navy&#8217;s efforts shouldn&#8217;t be exaggerated in keeping the seaways safe.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;ll grant that there&#8217;s little piracy on the US coast. The Caribbean is another story, but with all those islands around, I guess your territorial waters exception excuses that.</p>
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		<title>By: J Thomas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/comment-page-3/#comment-208215</link>
		<dc:creator>J Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 12:08:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/#comment-208215</guid>
		<description>sg, it isn&#039;t cowardly to attack weaker nations. It may be cowardly though to fail to attack strong nations because they&#039;re too strong.

We have no obligation to let weak nations get away with things just because they&#039;re weak. If we believed that, then wouldn&#039;t we have an obligation not to spank our children? But what kind of a nation would we have if we didn&#039;t spank children who misbehaved?

But then the situations aren&#039;t directly parallel. If we attack weak nations that aren&#039;t in our sphere of influence, I guess that would be more like spanking other people&#039;s misbehaving children, or misbehaving orphans. That&#039;s only justifiable if nobody else is taking care of the problem.

Anway, it&#039;t no more cowardly to attack a weaker nation with overwhelming force when they do something we don&#039;t want, than it is to spank a child or a woman or some other weak person when they disobey. Cowardice comes only from backing down from strong opponents, not from subduing weak ones.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>sg, it isn&#8217;t cowardly to attack weaker nations. It may be cowardly though to fail to attack strong nations because they&#8217;re too strong.</p>

	<p>We have no obligation to let weak nations get away with things just because they&#8217;re weak. If we believed that, then wouldn&#8217;t we have an obligation not to spank our children? But what kind of a nation would we have if we didn&#8217;t spank children who misbehaved?</p>

	<p>But then the situations aren&#8217;t directly parallel. If we attack weak nations that aren&#8217;t in our sphere of influence, I guess that would be more like spanking other people&#8217;s misbehaving children, or misbehaving orphans. That&#8217;s only justifiable if nobody else is taking care of the problem.</p>

	<p>Anway, it&#8217;t no more cowardly to attack a weaker nation with overwhelming force when they do something we don&#8217;t want, than it is to spank a child or a woman or some other weak person when they disobey. Cowardice comes only from backing down from strong opponents, not from subduing weak ones.</p>
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		<title>By: Crooked Timber &#187; &#187; Self-fulfilling assumptions</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/comment-page-3/#comment-208188</link>
		<dc:creator>Crooked Timber &#187; &#187; Self-fulfilling assumptions</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 07:12:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/#comment-208188</guid>
		<description>[...] has a new blog over at the Atlantic, and, browsing through it I notice that she comments on John Q.&#8217;s recent remarks about Drezner, foreign policy etc. The following caught my eye: Many economists (not all) might agree that it [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] has a new blog over at the Atlantic, and, browsing through it I notice that she comments on John Q.&#8217;s recent remarks about Drezner, foreign policy etc. The following caught my eye: Many economists (not all) might agree that it [...]</p>
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		<title>By: SG</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/comment-page-2/#comment-208184</link>
		<dc:creator>SG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 06:05:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/#comment-208184</guid>
		<description>ragout, in case you haven&#039;t noticed much of the rest of the world is not actually very taken with the &quot;noble&quot; aims of US intervention, and doesn&#039;t generally believe that the ends (whatever they may have turned out to be) justified the means.

As to cowardly, yes, it is in fact cowardly for the world&#039;s most powerful military to go to war with a nation like Panama. Whether it&#039;s troops on the ground or bombs from space, bullying nations who have no defense against your might is  cowardly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>ragout, in case you haven&#8217;t noticed much of the rest of the world is not actually very taken with the &#8220;noble&#8221; aims of US intervention, and doesn&#8217;t generally believe that the ends (whatever they may have turned out to be) justified the means.</p>

	<p>As to cowardly, yes, it is in fact cowardly for the world&#8217;s most powerful military to go to war with a nation like Panama. Whether it&#8217;s troops on the ground or bombs from space, bullying nations who have no defense against your might is  cowardly.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Edenbaum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/comment-page-2/#comment-208182</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Edenbaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 04:44:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/#comment-208182</guid>
		<description>&quot;A perpetual declaration of war&quot;
I guess I should be impressed that language of this sort, once religated to foreign newspapers and the looney left, is now being discussed in quasi-polite company in the US, though it&#039;s being said most directly here by a foreigner with friends in the US, who thinks his audience should be shocked by the implications.

What&#039;s changed?  That&#039;s the only interesting question. It&#039;s the only new one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;A perpetual declaration of war&#8221;<br />
I guess I should be impressed that language of this sort, once religated to foreign newspapers and the looney left, is now being discussed in quasi-polite company in the US, though it&#8217;s being said most directly here by a foreigner with friends in the US, who thinks his audience should be shocked by the implications.</p>

	<p>What&#8217;s changed?  That&#8217;s the only interesting question. It&#8217;s the only new one.</p>
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		<title>By: Ali</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/comment-page-2/#comment-208181</link>
		<dc:creator>Ali</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 04:33:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/#comment-208181</guid>
		<description>Citizens are subject to the laws of their nation, but nations are not subject to international law.

The nation-state is the highest order of sovereign body.  But many use the phrase &quot;international law&quot; to imply there is some authority higher than the nation-state, or some enforcement body above the nation-state.

Intead, international laws should be better understand as the outcome of the treaties a nation becomes party to.  Of course, any nation may unilaterally renounce any treaty at any time.  Otherwise, they would not be the absolute sovereigns that they are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Citizens are subject to the laws of their nation, but nations are not subject to international law.</p>

	<p>The nation-state is the highest order of sovereign body.  But many use the phrase &#8220;international law&#8221; to imply there is some authority higher than the nation-state, or some enforcement body above the nation-state.</p>

	<p>Intead, international laws should be better understand as the outcome of the treaties a nation becomes party to.  Of course, any nation may unilaterally renounce any treaty at any time.  Otherwise, they would not be the absolute sovereigns that they are.</p>
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		<title>By: Ragout</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/comment-page-2/#comment-208178</link>
		<dc:creator>Ragout</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 03:51:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/#comment-208178</guid>
		<description>richard (#91),

You mention that the worst piracy situation in the world is in Straits of Malacca. Note that this happens to be one place where the US Navy can’t go, since they are Malaysian and Indonesian territorial waters.

By the way, the US Navy’s most recent engagement with pirates occurred a few months ago, off the coast of Somalia when the Navy sank several pirate boats attacking the Danish ship Danica White. Unfortunately, the pirates were still able to capture the Danish ship and escape into Somali territorial waters where the US can’t follow, holding the crew hostage until a ransom was paid today. Thanks international law!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>richard (#91),</p>

	<p>You mention that the worst piracy situation in the world is in Straits of Malacca. Note that this happens to be one place where the <span class="caps">US </span>Navy can&#8217;t go, since they are Malaysian and Indonesian territorial waters.</p>

	<p>By the way, the <span class="caps">US </span>Navy&#8217;s most recent engagement with pirates occurred a few months ago, off the coast of Somalia when the Navy sank several pirate boats attacking the Danish ship Danica White. Unfortunately, the pirates were still able to capture the Danish ship and escape into Somali territorial waters where the US can&#8217;t follow, holding the crew hostage until a ransom was paid today. Thanks international law!</p>
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		<title>By: Roy Belmont</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/comment-page-2/#comment-208176</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Belmont</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 03:41:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/#comment-208176</guid>
		<description>Whenever I read one of Alegria&#039;s &quot;Mr. X&quot; posts I can&#039;t help thinking they&#039;re from &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achewood#Philippe&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Phillipe&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Whenever I read one of Alegria&#8217;s &#8220;Mr. X&#8221; posts I can&#8217;t help thinking they&#8217;re from <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achewood#Philippe" rel="nofollow">Phillipe</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Ragout</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/comment-page-2/#comment-208174</link>
		<dc:creator>Ragout</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 03:35:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/#comment-208174</guid>
		<description>richard,

You mention that the worst piracy situation in the world is in Straits of Malacca.  Note that this happens to be one place where the US Navy can&#039;t go, since they are Malaysian and Indonesian territorial waters.

By the way, the US Navy&#039;s most recent engagement with pirates occurred a few months ago, off the coast of Somalia when the Navy sank several pirate boats attacking the Danish ship Danica White.  Unfortunately, the pirates were still able to capture the Danish ship and escape into Somali territorial waters where the US can&#039;t follow, holding the crew hostage until a ransom was paid today.  Thanks international law!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>richard,</p>

	<p>You mention that the worst piracy situation in the world is in Straits of Malacca.  Note that this happens to be one place where the <span class="caps">US </span>Navy can&#8217;t go, since they are Malaysian and Indonesian territorial waters.</p>

	<p>By the way, the <span class="caps">US </span>Navy&#8217;s most recent engagement with pirates occurred a few months ago, off the coast of Somalia when the Navy sank several pirate boats attacking the Danish ship Danica White.  Unfortunately, the pirates were still able to capture the Danish ship and escape into Somali territorial waters where the US can&#8217;t follow, holding the crew hostage until a ransom was paid today.  Thanks international law!</p>
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		<title>By: Ragout</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/comment-page-2/#comment-208172</link>
		<dc:creator>Ragout</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 03:17:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/21/a-perpetual-declaration-of-war/#comment-208172</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;what much of the rest of the world derides as wrong and cowardly is to you right and sensible?&lt;/i&gt;

You&#039;ll have to be more specific about these things the rest of the world thinks is wrong before I can answer.  

But I laugh at accusations of &quot;cowardly&quot; behavior.  I&#039;m guessing that you mean that killing our enemies by bombing them is cowardly.  As I see it, US troops don&#039;t deserve to die, and if they can stay 20,000 feet above the enemy, I&#039;m all for it.    Do you really think that it&#039;s better to be killed by a brave soldier than a cowardly one?  That there&#039;s some noble or glorious way to fight a war?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>what much of the rest of the world derides as wrong and cowardly is to you right and sensible?</i></p>

	<p>You&#8217;ll have to be more specific about these things the rest of the world thinks is wrong before I can answer.</p>

	<p>But I laugh at accusations of &#8220;cowardly&#8221; behavior.  I&#8217;m guessing that you mean that killing our enemies by bombing them is cowardly.  As I see it, US troops don&#8217;t deserve to die, and if they can stay 20,000 feet above the enemy, I&#8217;m all for it.    Do you really think that it&#8217;s better to be killed by a brave soldier than a cowardly one?  That there&#8217;s some noble or glorious way to fight a war?</p>
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