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	<title>Comments on: Genuine vs Fake Economics Blogs</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 09:49:20 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Miracle Max</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-208224</link>
		<dc:creator>Miracle Max</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 12:47:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/#comment-208224</guid>
		<description>By the Ph.D. criterion a bunch of the &#039;economics blogs&#039; (but not mine) would have to be stricken from the list.  By the content criterion, as somebody mentioned, more than one site produced by a genuine econ Ph.D. would come into question.

If you&#039;re trying to promote your site, Dick, this silly stuff turns out to matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>By the Ph.D. criterion a bunch of the &#8216;economics blogs&#8217; (but not mine) would have to be stricken from the list.  By the content criterion, as somebody mentioned, more than one site produced by a genuine econ Ph.D. would come into question.</p>

	<p>If you&#8217;re trying to promote your site, Dick, this silly stuff turns out to matter.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-208212</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 10:27:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/#comment-208212</guid>
		<description>eric, it&#039;s not lack of humor; I was pointing out that you changed the meaning of his statement.

I don&#039;t know if it was deliberate, so I gave you the benefit of the doubt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>eric, it&#8217;s not lack of humor; I was pointing out that you changed the meaning of his statement.</p>

	<p>I don&#8217;t know if it was deliberate, so I gave you the benefit of the doubt.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Eric H</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-208175</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 03:38:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/#comment-208175</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Barry, your precise definition of the word &quot;usually&quot;, incisive summary of geographic differences in qualification signalling, and masterful grammatical pedantry has been a tremendous help. So sorry about the humorectomy, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks, Barry, your precise definition of the word &#8220;usually&#8221;, incisive summary of geographic differences in qualification signalling, and masterful grammatical pedantry has been a tremendous help. So sorry about the humorectomy, though.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-208163</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 23:13:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/#comment-208163</guid>
		<description>The things are still wrong, albeit boring.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The things are still wrong, albeit boring.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: notsneaky</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-208162</link>
		<dc:creator>notsneaky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 23:02:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/#comment-208162</guid>
		<description>sg, 
I was just trying to head off yet another &quot;Wellllllll, let ME tell you, what Ayyyyyyyyyy think is wrong with economics and economists&quot; thread which stopped being not-quite-boring many moons ago, which, like, in internet time is back when the Visi and the Ostro Goths were one people hanging out in the Ukraine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>sg,<br />
I was just trying to head off yet another &#8220;Wellllllll, let ME tell you, what Ayyyyyyyyyy think is wrong with economics and economists&#8221; thread which stopped being not-quite-boring many moons ago, which, like, in internet time is back when the Visi and the Ostro Goths were one people hanging out in the Ukraine.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-208159</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 22:54:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/#comment-208159</guid>
		<description>Nope, sock puppet. Any applied chemistry is chemical engineering, and it&#039;s useful in many areas including scientific areas outside chemistry. You&#039;re projecting your own issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Nope, sock puppet. Any applied chemistry is chemical engineering, and it&#8217;s useful in many areas including scientific areas outside chemistry. You&#8217;re projecting your own issues.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: wood turtle</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-208157</link>
		<dc:creator>wood turtle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 22:35:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/#comment-208157</guid>
		<description>I bought some crummy ponytail holders &quot;Made in China.&quot;  Half of them broke already.  If I blog about it, doesn&#039;t that make me an economist?

Anyway, it would have been helpful to have separate catgories for original as opposed to mostly derived blog topics.  Many economics blogs I noticed have a lot of similarity since they mostly reference the same material.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I bought some crummy ponytail holders &#8220;Made in China.&#8221;  Half of them broke already.  If I blog about it, doesn&#8217;t that make me an economist?</p>

	<p>Anyway, it would have been helpful to have separate catgories for original as opposed to mostly derived blog topics.  Many economics blogs I noticed have a lot of similarity since they mostly reference the same material.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sock Puppet of the Great Satan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-208146</link>
		<dc:creator>Sock Puppet of the Great Satan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 20:23:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/#comment-208146</guid>
		<description>&quot;Chemical engineering is chemistry put to use for non-scientific purposes&quot;

No. Chemical Engineering is what wannabe chemists who realise they suck in the lab decide to do instead.

Regards,

Sock Puppet of Sucky Reaction Yields</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Chemical engineering is chemistry put to use for non-scientific purposes&#8221;</p>

	<p>No. Chemical Engineering is what wannabe chemists who realise they suck in the lab decide to do instead.</p>

	<p>Regards,</p>

	<p>Sock Puppet of Sucky Reaction Yields</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Ben Alpers</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-208127</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Alpers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 18:15:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/#comment-208127</guid>
		<description>I think you&#039;re right about the effect of rankings, JE.  But in the case of both economics and analytic philosophy, the narrowing preceded the rankings.

Before WWII, major economics departments were much more heterogeneous places than they became after the War.

And the exclusively analytic orientation of most American philosophy departments goes back to the 1950s, I think (see John McCumber&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Time in the Ditch&lt;/i&gt; for a political explanation of this, or Simon Glendinning&#039;s &lt;i&gt;The Idea of Continental Philsophy&lt;/i&gt; for a more internal, philosophical explanation).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think you&#8217;re right about the effect of rankings, JE.  But in the case of both economics and analytic philosophy, the narrowing preceded the rankings.</p>

	<p>Before <span class="caps">WWII</span>, major economics departments were much more heterogeneous places than they became after the War.</p>

	<p>And the exclusively analytic orientation of most American philosophy departments goes back to the 1950s, I think (see John McCumber&#8217;s <i>Time in the Ditch</i> for a political explanation of this, or Simon Glendinning&#8217;s <i>The Idea of Continental Philsophy</i> for a more internal, philosophical explanation).</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-208121</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 17:28:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/#comment-208121</guid>
		<description>Damn. I killed the internet again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Damn. I killed the internet again.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-208108</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 15:58:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/#comment-208108</guid>
		<description>7: When the kind of rankings of schools you see for philosophy (Leiter Report) and other disciplines come to be used by students to select schools to go to, and by schools to select grad students and to hire faculty, it seems to me that inevitably you&#039;re going to see a narrowing of the field into a consensus &quot;compact majority&quot;, the exclusion of divergent points of view, and the fossilization of orthodoxy. This certainly seems to be happening, and I don&#039;t think that it would be hard to do a game-theoretic (or other) simulation showing that this result is more or less inevitable. 

The recent reconfiguration of the Notre Dame econ department is a case in point. It was motivated by rankings, and had the effect of squelching an interesting and unique tendency. Mirowski&#039;s student will become unemployable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>7: When the kind of rankings of schools you see for philosophy (Leiter Report) and other disciplines come to be used by students to select schools to go to, and by schools to select grad students and to hire faculty, it seems to me that inevitably you&#8217;re going to see a narrowing of the field into a consensus &#8220;compact majority&#8221;, the exclusion of divergent points of view, and the fossilization of orthodoxy. This certainly seems to be happening, and I don&#8217;t think that it would be hard to do a game-theoretic (or other) simulation showing that this result is more or less inevitable.</p>

	<p>The recent reconfiguration of the Notre Dame econ department is a case in point. It was motivated by rankings, and had the effect of squelching an interesting and unique tendency. Mirowski&#8217;s student will become unemployable.</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-208105</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 15:44:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/#comment-208105</guid>
		<description>I think that perhaps the biggest problems with economics is the failure to distinguish theoretical and applied economics, the way chemistry and chemical engineering (for example) are distinguished. Chemical engineering is chemistry put to use for non-scientific purposes; it&#039;s chemistry-plus (or you could also say, the subset of chemistry practical useful outside chemistry).

If the division were made, then the applications of economics would vary according to the practical purposes in view. But in fact, theoretical economics is also practical economics, and the applications are tacitly wired in. Economists who are not free-market ideologues don&#039;t seem like real economists, because theoretical economics favors a limited range of applications (mostly maximizing the GNP). 

It&#039;s really a toxic stew of philosophical delusion. Economists claim to be value-free &quot;real scientists&quot;, and this allows the free-market ideologues to claim precedence over economists who take extreconomic factors into consideration. But theoretical economics isn&#039;t non-normative; it&#039;s crypto-normative. The norms of the theoretical-applied economic chimera are tacitly wired into the theory by exclusions and stipulations. Since unexpressed, these crypto-norms are uncriticizable.

Labor economics, environmental economics, and feminist economics are held in low repute within the field because they are not &quot;purely scientific&quot;. This is another way of saying that they are forms of applied economics governed by explicit practical criteria different from, or additional to, the implicit practical criteria wired into theoretical economics. 

The idea that a non-normative pure science should have precedence over normative thinking for practical purposes is, of course, horrible and ridiculous. How can you have any applications without normative thinking? But many economists, perhaps most, think something like this.

Sometimes economists tip their hands by bending their own rules when discussing labor questions, feminist questions, or environmental questions. But usually the tacit wired-in norms of the theory are sufficient.

Amartya Sen and Hilary Putnam are good authors to read on these questions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think that perhaps the biggest problems with economics is the failure to distinguish theoretical and applied economics, the way chemistry and chemical engineering (for example) are distinguished. Chemical engineering is chemistry put to use for non-scientific purposes; it&#8217;s chemistry-plus (or you could also say, the subset of chemistry practical useful outside chemistry).</p>

	<p>If the division were made, then the applications of economics would vary according to the practical purposes in view. But in fact, theoretical economics is also practical economics, and the applications are tacitly wired in. Economists who are not free-market ideologues don&#8217;t seem like real economists, because theoretical economics favors a limited range of applications (mostly maximizing the <span class="caps">GNP</span>).</p>

	<p>It&#8217;s really a toxic stew of philosophical delusion. Economists claim to be value-free &#8220;real scientists&#8221;, and this allows the free-market ideologues to claim precedence over economists who take extreconomic factors into consideration. But theoretical economics isn&#8217;t non-normative; it&#8217;s crypto-normative. The norms of the theoretical-applied economic chimera are tacitly wired into the theory by exclusions and stipulations. Since unexpressed, these crypto-norms are uncriticizable.</p>

	<p>Labor economics, environmental economics, and feminist economics are held in low repute within the field because they are not &#8220;purely scientific&#8221;. This is another way of saying that they are forms of applied economics governed by explicit practical criteria different from, or additional to, the implicit practical criteria wired into theoretical economics.</p>

	<p>The idea that a non-normative pure science should have precedence over normative thinking for practical purposes is, of course, horrible and ridiculous. How can you have any applications without normative thinking? But many economists, perhaps most, think something like this.</p>

	<p>Sometimes economists tip their hands by bending their own rules when discussing labor questions, feminist questions, or environmental questions. But usually the tacit wired-in norms of the theory are sufficient.</p>

	<p>Amartya Sen and Hilary Putnam are good authors to read on these questions.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Jim Johnson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-208088</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 14:50:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/#comment-208088</guid>
		<description>Ben, Actually, economists and philosophers are hardly alone in being preoccuppied with rankings of varius sorts. My department chair just gleefully circulated a ranking of political science departments that reflelcts favorably on our department, having readily ignored other such rankings, based on other criteria, that reflect relatively poorly on us. The entire enterprise is a bit idiotic. The ranking that our chair just circulated is based on a single criterion - placement of PhD graduates in R1 University Departments (weighted by quality of placement and size of home department). That seems useful (partiallly) as a planning device for prospective graduate students, but hardly a serious measure of departmental quality (as opposed, say, to narrowness of training). Here is the URL:
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/08/21/ranking

Moreover, our Proovost&#039;s office has spent the better part of the past year hectoring faculty to respond to quesitonaires sent for the updated NRC rankings of departments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ben, Actually, economists and philosophers are hardly alone in being preoccuppied with rankings of varius sorts. My department chair just gleefully circulated a ranking of political science departments that reflelcts favorably on our department, having readily ignored other such rankings, based on other criteria, that reflect relatively poorly on us. The entire enterprise is a bit idiotic. The ranking that our chair just circulated is based on a single criterion &#8211; placement of PhD graduates in <span class="caps">R1 </span>University Departments (weighted by quality of placement and size of home department). That seems useful (partiallly) as a planning device for prospective graduate students, but hardly a serious measure of departmental quality (as opposed, say, to narrowness of training). Here is the <span class="caps">URL</span>:<br />
<a href="http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/08/21/ranking" rel="nofollow">http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/08/21/ranking</a></p>

	<p>Moreover, our Proovost&#8217;s office has spent the better part of the past year hectoring faculty to respond to quesitonaires sent for the updated <span class="caps">NRC</span> rankings of departments.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: KCinDC</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-208086</link>
		<dc:creator>KCinDC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 14:46:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/#comment-208086</guid>
		<description>Doesn&#039;t Duncan &quot;Atrios&quot; Black have a PhD in economics? That certainly doesn&#039;t make Eschaton an economics blog.

I definitely think of MaxSpeak as an economics blog, but have never thought of CT as one. That&#039;s because of the content of the posts, not the academic qualifications of the bloggers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Doesn&#8217;t Duncan &#8220;Atrios&#8221; Black have a PhD in economics? That certainly doesn&#8217;t make Eschaton an economics blog.</p>

	<p>I definitely think of MaxSpeak as an economics blog, but have never thought of CT as one. That&#8217;s because of the content of the posts, not the academic qualifications of the bloggers.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Cranky Observer</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-208054</link>
		<dc:creator>Cranky Observer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 12:21:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/genuine-vs-fake-economics-blogs/#comment-208054</guid>
		<description>&gt; Overall I want to keep this ranking specialised
&gt;  to blogs where the main focus is economics. Of 
&gt; course that is hard to define,

Thus neatly sidestepping the question of whether there is any such thing as &quot;economics&quot; as distinguished from political economy (and that setting aside the question of whether it all boils down to power (political) relationships in the end).

Cranky</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>> Overall I want to keep this ranking specialised<br />
>  to blogs where the main focus is economics. Of<br />
> course that is hard to define,</p>

	<p>Thus neatly sidestepping the question of whether there is any such thing as &#8220;economics&#8221; as distinguished from political economy (and that setting aside the question of whether it all boils down to power (political) relationships in the end).</p>

	<p>Cranky</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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