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	<title>Comments on: The British Museum</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Katherine</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/comment-page-2/#comment-208819</link>
		<dc:creator>Katherine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:05:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/#comment-208819</guid>
		<description>Jon H, interesting suggestions.  Alas, entry to the British Museum is free.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Jon H, interesting suggestions.  Alas, entry to the British Museum is free.</p>
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		<title>By: richard</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/comment-page-2/#comment-208743</link>
		<dc:creator>richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Aug 2007 15:34:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/#comment-208743</guid>
		<description>Re 60 (martin wisse): the looting of the Baghdad Museum would be exactly the kind of thing you&#039;re talking about: the objects are being valued and used at the time that they&#039;re being stolen; the legal situation seems pretty clear. I&#039;ve been surprised and gratified that objects from that looting don&#039;t seem to be showing up in other major museums&#039; collections (while being disturbed and horrified that they seem to have just disappeared, for now) - it suggests to me that the climate has changed significantly since the 50s and 60s. Sadly, Buddhist temples and active-use archeaological sites still don&#039;t seem to have the same status as places of clear ownership.

Your linking of the arguments for retaining treasures to racism is a common move: I think it obscures real questions. If the point is to return the treasures to their rightful owners, it seems reasonable to ask who that might be (if it&#039;s to return them to their &#039;native soil&#039; then there are often questions about what the fate of the objects will be, and why soil should get a vote). All manner of frankly crazy stories have been told to support different flavours of nationalism, some of the strangest by the British: many arguments for &#039;returning&#039; objects are based on such stories, or pander to the desires of national governments striving to bolster their legitimacy. Questioning such motivations doesn&#039;t have to be racist, ethnist or chauvinistic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Re 60 (martin wisse): the looting of the Baghdad Museum would be exactly the kind of thing you&#8217;re talking about: the objects are being valued and used at the time that they&#8217;re being stolen; the legal situation seems pretty clear. I&#8217;ve been surprised and gratified that objects from that looting don&#8217;t seem to be showing up in other major museums&#8217; collections (while being disturbed and horrified that they seem to have just disappeared, for now) &#8211; it suggests to me that the climate has changed significantly since the 50s and 60s. Sadly, Buddhist temples and active-use archeaological sites still don&#8217;t seem to have the same status as places of clear ownership.</p>

	<p>Your linking of the arguments for retaining treasures to racism is a common move: I think it obscures real questions. If the point is to return the treasures to their rightful owners, it seems reasonable to ask who that might be (if it&#8217;s to return them to their &#8216;native soil&#8217; then there are often questions about what the fate of the objects will be, and why soil should get a vote). All manner of frankly crazy stories have been told to support different flavours of nationalism, some of the strangest by the British: many arguments for &#8216;returning&#8217; objects are based on such stories, or pander to the desires of national governments striving to bolster their legitimacy. Questioning such motivations doesn&#8217;t have to be racist, ethnist or chauvinistic.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Wisse</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/comment-page-2/#comment-208731</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Wisse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Aug 2007 04:50:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/#comment-208731</guid>
		<description>Dutch museums, at least back in the eighties/early nineties did strive to return items acquired during colonial times to their rightful owners, mainly to Indonesia.

Most of the arguments in favour of keeping stolen cultural artifacts here amount to no more than &quot;the wogs would not take good care of them anyway&quot; and/or &quot;besides, the people living there now are not the people whose artifacts we looted&quot;.

I&#039;d imagine the latter would not go over well if say the Lewis chessmen were looted from Britain by another country, while the former is just not true anymore (with some exceptions)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Dutch museums, at least back in the eighties/early nineties did strive to return items acquired during colonial times to their rightful owners, mainly to Indonesia.</p>

	<p>Most of the arguments in favour of keeping stolen cultural artifacts here amount to no more than &#8220;the wogs would not take good care of them anyway&#8221; and/or &#8220;besides, the people living there now are not the people whose artifacts we looted&#8221;.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;d imagine the latter would not go over well if say the Lewis chessmen were looted from Britain by another country, while the former is just not true anymore (with some exceptions)</p>
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		<title>By: Jon H</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/comment-page-2/#comment-208653</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Aug 2007 07:20:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/#comment-208653</guid>
		<description>Russell wrote: &quot;there still is an ick factor (I not going to deconstruct this further than that) about replacing parts that actually exist with fakes. &quot;

There&#039;s an excellent argument for using fakes - putting the real ones up would be irresponsible because they will be damaged by pollution and acid rain.

I suppose it doesn&#039;t matter that much for a bog-standard chunk of a column, but things with details that could be eaten away (or broken off and stolen!) are probably best kept indoors and replaced by duplicates.

Some items are made of materials that can stand up to pollution, but others practically melt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Russell wrote: &#8220;there still is an ick factor (I not going to deconstruct this further than that) about replacing parts that actually exist with fakes. &#8221;</p>

	<p>There&#8217;s an excellent argument for using fakes &#8211; putting the real ones up would be irresponsible because they will be damaged by pollution and acid rain.</p>

	<p>I suppose it doesn&#8217;t matter that much for a bog-standard chunk of a column, but things with details that could be eaten away (or broken off and stolen!) are probably best kept indoors and replaced by duplicates.</p>

	<p>Some items are made of materials that can stand up to pollution, but others practically melt.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon H</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/comment-page-2/#comment-208652</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Aug 2007 07:14:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/#comment-208652</guid>
		<description>Maybe the thing to do would be:

1) Make sure countries have some oversight over how things are stored and/or displayed in other countries&#039; museums.

2) Provide some method of generating revenue from visitors, and sending that back to the source nation. Gift shop? Micropayment buttons by every exhibit? Higher ticket prices? Traffic tracking so that souce countries are paid depending on how many people pass by and how long they pause at a given item?

3) Establish discounted/free admission for the source country&#039;s citizens, and discounted and/or heavily subsidized travel packages to the exhibiting museums, administered through embassies or consulates.

In terms of education possibilities, I bet it would be far more enriching to send Egyptian families to London, than to send them to Cairo. (And likewise, with sending an Ohio family to London, rather than the Smithsonian; or sending an English family to the Smithsonian, rather than London. This is not an argument of English superiority.)

I&#039;m sure the US would see a huge flaw in this in that it would involve people from &lt;i&gt;those countries&lt;/i&gt; travelling here, and also that every such trip would provide the travelers with an opportunity to overstay their visas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Maybe the thing to do would be:</p>

	<p>1) Make sure countries have some oversight over how things are stored and/or displayed in other countries&#8217; museums.</p>

	<p>2) Provide some method of generating revenue from visitors, and sending that back to the source nation. Gift shop? Micropayment buttons by every exhibit? Higher ticket prices? Traffic tracking so that souce countries are paid depending on how many people pass by and how long they pause at a given item?</p>

	<p>3) Establish discounted/free admission for the source country&#8217;s citizens, and discounted and/or heavily subsidized travel packages to the exhibiting museums, administered through embassies or consulates.</p>

	<p>In terms of education possibilities, I bet it would be far more enriching to send Egyptian families to London, than to send them to Cairo. (And likewise, with sending an Ohio family to London, rather than the Smithsonian; or sending an English family to the Smithsonian, rather than London. This is not an argument of English superiority.)</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m sure the US would see a huge flaw in this in that it would involve people from <i>those countries</i> travelling here, and also that every such trip would provide the travelers with an opportunity to overstay their visas.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/comment-page-2/#comment-208651</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Aug 2007 07:14:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/#comment-208651</guid>
		<description>Suppose your grandfather was a German who disappeared in Nazi concentration camps, his property confiscated. Suppose you search the archives, find his file and one item in the list of his confiscated property is an extremely valuable painting... wait, no, not a painting, but an ancient cultural artifact, why not? - that now belongs to the British Museum.

What should happen?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Suppose your grandfather was a German who disappeared in Nazi concentration camps, his property confiscated. Suppose you search the archives, find his file and one item in the list of his confiscated property is an extremely valuable painting&#8230; wait, no, not a painting, but an ancient cultural artifact, why not? &#8211; that now belongs to the British Museum.</p>

	<p>What should happen?</p>
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		<title>By: Jon H</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/comment-page-2/#comment-208650</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Aug 2007 06:56:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/#comment-208650</guid>
		<description>&quot;The best way to preserve cultural treasures may be to make sure that they all are at the center of various disputes over ownership.&quot;

Only as long as the people who possess them are sane enough to not destroy the item in lieu of returning it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;The best way to preserve cultural treasures may be to make sure that they all are at the center of various disputes over ownership.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Only as long as the people who possess them are sane enough to not destroy the item in lieu of returning it.</p>
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		<title>By: ed</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/comment-page-2/#comment-208618</link>
		<dc:creator>ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Aug 2007 16:04:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/#comment-208618</guid>
		<description>The fact that the Elgin Marbles are in London, and the Greeks are trying to get to the Greece, probably is leading the Greeks to put much more of an effort in building a modern, climate controlled museum for them and other treasures, and in taking care of the Acropolis, than they would otherwise.  The fact that the Elgin marbles are in London may have saved the Carytids.

Likewise, the efforts of the Greeks to obtain the marbles probably led the British Museum to make sure that they were restored and showcased.

The best way to preserve cultural treasures may be to make sure that they all are at the center of various disputes over ownership.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The fact that the Elgin Marbles are in London, and the Greeks are trying to get to the Greece, probably is leading the Greeks to put much more of an effort in building a modern, climate controlled museum for them and other treasures, and in taking care of the Acropolis, than they would otherwise.  The fact that the Elgin marbles are in London may have saved the Carytids.</p>

	<p>Likewise, the efforts of the Greeks to obtain the marbles probably led the British Museum to make sure that they were restored and showcased.</p>

	<p>The best way to preserve cultural treasures may be to make sure that they all are at the center of various disputes over ownership.</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/comment-page-2/#comment-208593</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Aug 2007 11:46:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/#comment-208593</guid>
		<description>Just to put things more briefly, I agree with Thom Brook&#039;s last comment, and that&#039;s one reason why I don&#039;t attach much weight to the arguments about the legitimacy of the historical transfers of property rights in most cases, but I think the stronger arguments against the BM&#039;s position are:

1) arguments from cultural nationalism (the Elgin marbles are the cultural patrimony of the Greek people and the Greek people are responsible for looking after them)
2) arguments from egalitarianism (the Elgin marbles are the cultural patrimony of all mankind and it is unfair that so much of this common heritage is at present concentrated in London and Western Europe)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Just to put things more briefly, I agree with Thom Brook&#8217;s last comment, and that&#8217;s one reason why I don&#8217;t attach much weight to the arguments about the legitimacy of the historical transfers of property rights in most cases, but I think the stronger arguments against the BM&#8217;s position are:</p>

	<p>1) arguments from cultural nationalism (the Elgin marbles are the cultural patrimony of the Greek people and the Greek people are responsible for looking after them)<br />
2) arguments from egalitarianism (the Elgin marbles are the cultural patrimony of all mankind and it is unfair that so much of this common heritage is at present concentrated in London and Western Europe)</p>
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		<title>By: Thom Brooks</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/comment-page-2/#comment-208586</link>
		<dc:creator>Thom Brooks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Aug 2007 09:18:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/#comment-208586</guid>
		<description>I suppose the uneasiness extends far beyond the British Museum. Any country&#039;s museum is likely to contain items won from one battle or another.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I suppose the uneasiness extends far beyond the British Museum. Any country&#8217;s museum is likely to contain items won from one battle or another.</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/comment-page-2/#comment-208560</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Aug 2007 00:32:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/#comment-208560</guid>
		<description>Obviously should have written &quot;so many of these artefacts&quot; rather than &quot;the majority of these artefacts&quot;...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Obviously should have written &#8220;so many of these artefacts&#8221; rather than &#8220;the majority of these artefacts&#8221;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/comment-page-2/#comment-208559</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Aug 2007 00:30:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/#comment-208559</guid>
		<description>Steve, if I came across like I was saying the legal issues don&#039;t matter that was a lack of clarity on my part. What I meant was I don&#039;t think those kinds of arguments have a lot of moral force, in many cases at least, partly for reasons like those suggested by Rea above and by Kwame Anthony Appiah (quoted in the original post). I think there are a range of moral arguments available as to why such artefacts ought to be restored to their countries of origin and the strongest ones (imo) seemed to have been overlooked in the discussion above.

Anyway, like I said, I am not a convinced believer in the the proposition that each nation ought to control its own most significant cultural products. But I think there are two reasonable positions here. A nationalistic one, which says that any such artefact is, above all, the common property of the nation that created it, and a cosmopolitan one, which says that it is the common property of mankind. But even if you take the second view there are issues about the justice of the majority of these artefacts being held in London. A cosmopolitan, if she is an egalitarian, ought to be concerned that Londoners (or Western Europeans) have ready access to a wealth of cultural treasures which has been placed out of reach of most of the world&#039;s population.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Steve, if I came across like I was saying the legal issues don&#8217;t matter that was a lack of clarity on my part. What I meant was I don&#8217;t think those kinds of arguments have a lot of moral force, in many cases at least, partly for reasons like those suggested by Rea above and by Kwame Anthony Appiah (quoted in the original post). I think there are a range of moral arguments available as to why such artefacts ought to be restored to their countries of origin and the strongest ones (imo) seemed to have been overlooked in the discussion above.</p>

	<p>Anyway, like I said, I am not a convinced believer in the the proposition that each nation ought to control its own most significant cultural products. But I think there are two reasonable positions here. A nationalistic one, which says that any such artefact is, above all, the common property of the nation that created it, and a cosmopolitan one, which says that it is the common property of mankind. But even if you take the second view there are issues about the justice of the majority of these artefacts being held in London. A cosmopolitan, if she is an egalitarian, ought to be concerned that Londoners (or Western Europeans) have ready access to a wealth of cultural treasures which has been placed out of reach of most of the world&#8217;s population.</p>
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		<title>By: y</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/comment-page-1/#comment-208557</link>
		<dc:creator>y</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Aug 2007 00:11:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/#comment-208557</guid>
		<description>I visited the Parthenon this summer; it is covered in scaffolding, and the signs indicate that the present work on it is intended to undo the effects of previous reconstruction work in the light of more recent understanding of the original locations of the various blocks of marble, and (eventually) to restore as many blocks as possible to their pre-1687 locations.  

The caryatids on the Erechtheion now are replicas, and the originals are in the museum--actually, currently being moved from the old museum to the new one, I believe, except for one that Elgin got.  

There&#039;s supposed to be a place prepared in the new museum for the blocks of the Parthenon frieze, and I expect that if the British Museum ever returned them, perhaps at that point replicas would be put up on the Parthenon itself--but I imagine not before then.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I visited the Parthenon this summer; it is covered in scaffolding, and the signs indicate that the present work on it is intended to undo the effects of previous reconstruction work in the light of more recent understanding of the original locations of the various blocks of marble, and (eventually) to restore as many blocks as possible to their pre-1687 locations.</p>

	<p>The caryatids on the Erechtheion now are replicas, and the originals are in the museum&#8212;actually, currently being moved from the old museum to the new one, I believe, except for one that Elgin got.</p>

	<p>There&#8217;s supposed to be a place prepared in the new museum for the blocks of the Parthenon frieze, and I expect that if the British Museum ever returned them, perhaps at that point replicas would be put up on the Parthenon itself&#8212;but I imagine not before then.</p>
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		<title>By: Russell L. Carter</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/comment-page-1/#comment-208523</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell L. Carter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 20:29:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/#comment-208523</guid>
		<description>&quot;re 45: if the desecration is visual, why not put replica marbles up on the Parthenon? Good copies can be made.&quot;

This is probably the crux of the matter.  If they were to do this, why not go the whole nine yards and fix the thing to as near say pre ottoman destruction as possible.  I saw a lot of temples in Egypt where the columns for instance were reassembled.  The necessary augmentations are quite visible, and on the whole, I think the effect is positive.  But there still is an ick factor (I not going to deconstruct this further than that) about replacing parts that actually exist with fakes.  Fidelity?  I don&#039;t know, I am retreating back to numerical linear algebra.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;re 45: if the desecration is visual, why not put replica marbles up on the Parthenon? Good copies can be made.&#8221;</p>

	<p>This is probably the crux of the matter.  If they were to do this, why not go the whole nine yards and fix the thing to as near say pre ottoman destruction as possible.  I saw a lot of temples in Egypt where the columns for instance were reassembled.  The necessary augmentations are quite visible, and on the whole, I think the effect is positive.  But there still is an ick factor (I not going to deconstruct this further than that) about replacing parts that actually exist with fakes.  Fidelity?  I don&#8217;t know, I am retreating back to numerical linear algebra.</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/comment-page-1/#comment-208517</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 20:19:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/23/the-british-museum/#comment-208517</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;There’s a good case to be made here that Elgin felt that value when others didn’t, and that the value the marbles have now is a production of the urge to antiquarianism fostered in northern Europe from the 18th century on.&lt;/i&gt;

Well, the ancient Athenians were also rather fond of them, you know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>There&#8217;s a good case to be made here that Elgin felt that value when others didn&#8217;t, and that the value the marbles have now is a production of the urge to antiquarianism fostered in northern Europe from the 18th century on.</i></p>

	<p>Well, the ancient Athenians were also rather fond of them, you know.</p>
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