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	<title>Comments on: Edwards&#8217; CITO proposal</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: foggybottomline.com &#187; International Cooperation and Threats from Non-State Actors</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-210732</link>
		<dc:creator>foggybottomline.com &#187; International Cooperation and Threats from Non-State Actors</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Sep 2007 16:11:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/#comment-210732</guid>
		<description>[...] Farrell has some interesting comments about John Edward’s proposal for a Counterterrorism and Intelligence Treaty Organization.  Dr. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] Farrell has some interesting comments about John Edward&#8217;s proposal for a Counterterrorism and Intelligence Treaty Organization.&#160; Dr. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: R. Stanton Scott</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-210721</link>
		<dc:creator>R. Stanton Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:00:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/#comment-210721</guid>
		<description>I think that such an information-sharing treaty is indeed possible, if states decide that non-state actors threaten their survival more than other states do.  As globalization--and the finanacial and trade institutional structure that supports it--continues to bind states together, states may decide that a possible disruption of the global economy by terrorists presents more danger to survival than war with other states.  After all, many states today fight more over market share than territory.

Corporations--run largely by the same elites that run states--will pressure political units to protect economies and the rules that make capitalism and trade possible.  Sooner or later they will lobby to create processses--already developing to protect intellectual property rights, for example--designed to criminalize behavior that makes business riskier.

States cooperate on security only reluctantly, but we know from NATO that if they perceive a great enough threat they can overcome fear and jealousy and act collectively.  This will happen if terrorism presents such a threat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think that such an information-sharing treaty is indeed possible, if states decide that non-state actors threaten their survival more than other states do.  As globalization&#8212;and the finanacial and trade institutional structure that supports it&#8212;continues to bind states together, states may decide that a possible disruption of the global economy by terrorists presents more danger to survival than war with other states.  After all, many states today fight more over market share than territory.</p>

	<p>Corporations&#8212;run largely by the same elites that run states&#8212;will pressure political units to protect economies and the rules that make capitalism and trade possible.  Sooner or later they will lobby to create processses&#8212;already developing to protect intellectual property rights, for example&#8212;designed to criminalize behavior that makes business riskier.</p>

	<p>States cooperate on security only reluctantly, but we know from <span class="caps">NATO</span> that if they perceive a great enough threat they can overcome fear and jealousy and act collectively.  This will happen if terrorism presents such a threat.</p>
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		<title>By: G. B.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-210695</link>
		<dc:creator>G. B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Sep 2007 04:10:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/#comment-210695</guid>
		<description>Who needs something called CITO? Hell, we can&#039;t even  get the so-called Homeland Security to operate within the states...and now we want to include other countries!But then again, we see time after time how Europe smashes plots..uh, maybe we could learn something. Naw, we still know there&#039;s WMD in Iraq.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Who needs something called <span class="caps">CITO</span>? Hell, we can&#8217;t even  get the so-called Homeland Security to operate within the states&#8230;and now we want to include other countries!But then again, we see time after time how Europe smashes plots..uh, maybe we could learn something. Naw, we still know there&#8217;s <span class="caps">WMD</span> in Iraq.</p>
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		<title>By: c.l. ball</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-210662</link>
		<dc:creator>c.l. ball</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:39:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/#comment-210662</guid>
		<description>I think Henry&#039;s acknowledged most of the downsides mentioned in the comments, and made two good points about why CITO might still be worth pursuing. 

Note that Edwards says it would &quot;allow members to voluntarily share financial, police, customs and immigration intelligence.&quot; So each member would presumably decide what it would put into CITO (otherwise, why the adverb &#039;voluntarily&#039;?). But it does not mention &#039;domestic intelligence&#039; as we might normally use the term -- by &#039;police&#039; it is not clear that Edwards means the domestic intelligence branch of the FBI or organizations like MI-5. 

I can also see a quasi-problem with customs and immigrations data-sharing: say a US citizen flies from Montreal to Havana, evading the US ban on travel to Cuba, but this data would be in the new CITO database presumably. Unless CITO barred non-terrorism prosecution uses, which would be difficult to define, it would be a new mechanism for governments to enforce unique national laws. 

Sending reams of data to a central database sounds unwieldy on technical, privacy, and security levels. More helpful would be a set of procedures for querying other governments on suspects.  Rather than rely on bilateral means for the US asking Germany about say, a suspected Pakistani national who entered the US via Germany or has called people in Germany from the US, the CITO members would be contacted jointly. It may be that Italy has more information. Of course, if bilateral or mini-lateral procedures like this are already strong, then this might be superfluous in most cases.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think Henry&#8217;s acknowledged most of the downsides mentioned in the comments, and made two good points about why <span class="caps">CITO</span> might still be worth pursuing.</p>

	<p>Note that Edwards says it would &#8220;allow members to voluntarily share financial, police, customs and immigration intelligence.&#8221; So each member would presumably decide what it would put into <span class="caps">CITO </span>(otherwise, why the adverb &#8216;voluntarily&#8217;?). But it does not mention &#8216;domestic intelligence&#8217; as we might normally use the term&#8212;by &#8216;police&#8217; it is not clear that Edwards means the domestic intelligence branch of the <span class="caps">FBI</span> or organizations like MI-5.</p>

	<p>I can also see a quasi-problem with customs and immigrations data-sharing: say a US citizen flies from Montreal to Havana, evading the US ban on travel to Cuba, but this data would be in the new <span class="caps">CITO</span> database presumably. Unless <span class="caps">CITO</span> barred non-terrorism prosecution uses, which would be difficult to define, it would be a new mechanism for governments to enforce unique national laws.</p>

	<p>Sending reams of data to a central database sounds unwieldy on technical, privacy, and security levels. More helpful would be a set of procedures for querying other governments on suspects.  Rather than rely on bilateral means for the US asking Germany about say, a suspected Pakistani national who entered the US via Germany or has called people in Germany from the US, the <span class="caps">CITO</span> members would be contacted jointly. It may be that Italy has more information. Of course, if bilateral or mini-lateral procedures like this are already strong, then this might be superfluous in most cases.</p>
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		<title>By: Raphael</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-210648</link>
		<dc:creator>Raphael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:19:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/#comment-210648</guid>
		<description>As far as I know, there is already a good deal of information sharing between different countries&#039; intelligence agencies (and police divisions focussed on politically motivated crimes etc.) if the countries are more or less allied, and if they aren&#039;t, I think such an organisation won&#039;t make them share information, either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>As far as I know, there is already a good deal of information sharing between different countries&#8217; intelligence agencies (and police divisions focussed on politically motivated crimes etc.) if the countries are more or less allied, and if they aren&#8217;t, I think such an organisation won&#8217;t make them share information, either.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-210634</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:41:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/#comment-210634</guid>
		<description>&quot;For six years the terms of the debate have been on the one side, “Let’s go kill a whole lot of people,” and on the other, “That’s really not such a good idea.”&quot;
Posted by Bloix

Which, of course, is productive, if successful.  Restraining loons is a *good* thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;For six years the terms of the debate have been on the one side, &#8220;Let&#8217;s go kill a whole lot of people,&#8221; and on the other, &#8220;That&#8217;s really not such a good idea.&#8221;&#8221;<br />
Posted by Bloix</p>

	<p>Which, of course, is productive, if successful.  Restraining loons is a <strong>good</strong> thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Williams</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-210630</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:02:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/#comment-210630</guid>
		<description>Yet again, the advantage of being a historian is that I can say &quot;Tried that&quot;. Check out the international &#039;Anti-Anarchist&#039; conferences of the early C20th, and why the UK and France refused to sign up to them (but, as F. Zuckerman has recently shown, their law enforcers were quite happy to co-operate unofficially with the Okrana). 

There&#039;s also good work on the broader history of this topic by M. Deflem and by H-H. Liang, respectively showing: how effective police co-operation requires that the police forces involved have a degree of &#039;functional autonomy&#039; from their political masters; and how police co-operation didn&#039;t develop as a technocratic process, but as an aspect of inter-state relations.

Jason Lane&#039;s research on the impact of the Anglo-Irish agreement on RUC/GS co-operation suggests also that a more formalised approach actually damages long-standing informal connections. 

But apart from that, nice one, Edwards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yet again, the advantage of being a historian is that I can say &#8220;Tried that&#8221;. Check out the international &#8216;Anti-Anarchist&#8217; conferences of the early C20th, and why the UK and France refused to sign up to them (but, as F. Zuckerman has recently shown, their law enforcers were quite happy to co-operate unofficially with the Okrana).</p>

	<p>There&#8217;s also good work on the broader history of this topic by M. Deflem and by H-H. Liang, respectively showing: how effective police co-operation requires that the police forces involved have a degree of &#8216;functional autonomy&#8217; from their political masters; and how police co-operation didn&#8217;t develop as a technocratic process, but as an aspect of inter-state relations.</p>

	<p>Jason Lane&#8217;s research on the impact of the Anglo-Irish agreement on <span class="caps">RUC</span>/GS co-operation suggests also that a more formalised approach actually damages long-standing informal connections.</p>

	<p>But apart from that, nice one, Edwards.</p>
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		<title>By: Leinad</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-210595</link>
		<dc:creator>Leinad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2007 23:55:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/#comment-210595</guid>
		<description>#11 Interpol are signally ineffective at counter-terrorism: there&#039;s little evidence that the pretentious droning pap-rock that&#039;s defined their career has any effect on terrorists, save perhaps making them want to hurt us more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#11 Interpol are signally ineffective at counter-terrorism: there&#8217;s little evidence that the pretentious droning pap-rock that&#8217;s defined their career has any effect on terrorists, save perhaps making them want to hurt us more.</p>
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		<title>By: Kelly</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-210591</link>
		<dc:creator>Kelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2007 21:12:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/#comment-210591</guid>
		<description>First one has to define what a &quot;terrorist&quot; is.
Unless and until that happens, this is useless.  Remember &quot;curveball&quot;?  The info there was shared by the Germans who also mentioned that the guy was a flake and likely a liar.  Bush used the info anyway, instead of the documented and believeable info that the CIA provided him (see latest by Seymour Hersh.)
Also, we used to have a fellow that hung around the whitehouse that said &quot;one man&#039;s terrorist is another man&#039;s freedom fighter&quot; or words to that effect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>First one has to define what a &#8220;terrorist&#8221; is.<br />
Unless and until that happens, this is useless.  Remember &#8220;curveball&#8221;?  The info there was shared by the Germans who also mentioned that the guy was a flake and likely a liar.  Bush used the info anyway, instead of the documented and believeable info that the <span class="caps">CIA</span> provided him (see latest by Seymour Hersh.)<br />
Also, we used to have a fellow that hung around the whitehouse that said &#8220;one man&#8217;s terrorist is another man&#8217;s freedom fighter&#8221; or words to that effect.</p>
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		<title>By: Shelby</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-210587</link>
		<dc:creator>Shelby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2007 19:07:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/#comment-210587</guid>
		<description>Re #9: Those stories appear to underscore the problems of sharing information internationally.  Wouldn&#039;t CITO exacerbate those problems, rather than ameliorate them?  How confident is anyone that no administration in any member country would improperly access confidential information obtained by another country, and leak it?  

Henry may be right about the potential advantages of such a scheme, but if anything he underestimates the difficulties and problems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Re #9: Those stories appear to underscore the problems of sharing information internationally.  Wouldn&#8217;t <span class="caps">CITO</span> exacerbate those problems, rather than ameliorate them?  How confident is anyone that no administration in any member country would improperly access confidential information obtained by another country, and leak it?</p>

	<p>Henry may be right about the potential advantages of such a scheme, but if anything he underestimates the difficulties and problems.</p>
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		<title>By: sglover</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-210585</link>
		<dc:creator>sglover</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2007 18:25:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/#comment-210585</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s not clear to me how this &#039;CITO&#039; is substantially different from Interpol, which already exists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It&#8217;s not clear to me how this &#8216;CITO&#8217; is substantially different from Interpol, which already exists.</p>
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		<title>By: Bloix</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-210581</link>
		<dc:creator>Bloix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2007 17:47:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/#comment-210581</guid>
		<description>Whatever the merits, it&#039;s great to see a Democrat trying to come up with something constructive.  For six years the terms of the debate have been on the one side, &quot;Let&#039;s go kill a whole lot of people,&quot; and on the other, &quot;That&#039;s really not such a good idea.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Whatever the merits, it&#8217;s great to see a Democrat trying to come up with something constructive.  For six years the terms of the debate have been on the one side, &#8220;Let&#8217;s go kill a whole lot of people,&#8221; and on the other, &#8220;That&#8217;s really not such a good idea.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: Grand Moff Texan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-210579</link>
		<dc:creator>Grand Moff Texan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2007 17:46:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/#comment-210579</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The United States has good productive bilateral relations with most countries on these matters.&lt;/i&gt; 

Productive of what, exactly?  

http://www.antiwar.com/cole/?articleid=3382

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14320452/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1543162,00.html 

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Doubts_over_whether_intelligence_law_update_0911.html 
.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>The United States has good productive bilateral relations with most countries on these matters.</i></p>

	<p>Productive of what, exactly?</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.antiwar.com/cole/?articleid=3382" rel="nofollow">http://www.antiwar.com/cole/?articleid=3382</a></p>

	<p><a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14320452/" rel="nofollow">http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14320452/</a></p>

	<p><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1543162,00.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1543162,00.html</a></p>

	<p><a href="http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Doubts_over_whether_intelligence_law_update_0911.html" rel="nofollow">http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Doubts_over_whether_intelligence_law_update_0911.html</a><br />
.</p>
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		<title>By: James Wimberley</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-210575</link>
		<dc:creator>James Wimberley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2007 17:03:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/#comment-210575</guid>
		<description>And we must not cede the wingnuts the monopoly of the  &quot;draining the swamp&quot; idea. Tackling the root causes or predisposing factors of terrorism - political grievances, wacko readings of religious traditions, culture shock, unemployment and underdevelopment - is commonsense and essential. It should not be discarded just because the neocon idea of how to drain a swamp is to bomb it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>And we must not cede the wingnuts the monopoly of the  &#8220;draining the swamp&#8221; idea. Tackling the root causes or predisposing factors of terrorism &#8211; political grievances, wacko readings of religious traditions, culture shock, unemployment and underdevelopment &#8211; is commonsense and essential. It should not be discarded just because the neocon idea of how to drain a swamp is to bomb it.</p>
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		<title>By: foolishmortal</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-210574</link>
		<dc:creator>foolishmortal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2007 17:02:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/12/edwards-cito-proposal/#comment-210574</guid>
		<description>This a wonderful dual-fig-leaf proposal. Should an Edwards presidency occur, EU nations will be in a position where they will be gagging for any kind of structured international cooperation. At the same time, it could provide cover for the various nasty things we (the U.S.) are asking them to do.

On the U.S. side, such an agreement would go a long way towards rejuvenating our soft power. If Guantanamo were closed, and moved to Dresden. this would be good PR indeed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This a wonderful dual-fig-leaf proposal. Should an Edwards presidency occur, EU nations will be in a position where they will be gagging for any kind of structured international cooperation. At the same time, it could provide cover for the various nasty things we (the U.S.) are asking them to do.</p>

	<p>On the U.S. side, such an agreement would go a long way towards rejuvenating our soft power. If Guantanamo were closed, and moved to Dresden. this would be good PR indeed.</p>
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