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	<title>Comments on: Economists, journalists and European welfare states</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: derrida derider</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/comment-page-1/#comment-211049</link>
		<dc:creator>derrida derider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 07:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/#comment-211049</guid>
		<description>PS - that &lt;i&gt;shifting&lt;/i&gt; of the burden is the political economy reason why both employment protection and landlord-tenant laws are popular with most workers and renters respectively.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><span class="caps">PS </span>- that <i>shifting</i> of the burden is the political economy reason why both employment protection and landlord-tenant laws are popular with most workers and renters respectively.</p>
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		<title>By: derrida derider</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/comment-page-1/#comment-211048</link>
		<dc:creator>derrida derider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 07:03:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/#comment-211048</guid>
		<description>No, the average length of job search for the average &lt;b&gt;worker who is not working&lt;/b&gt; goes up.  But there are now more otherwise-would-be-fired workers with a search length of zero, so the average search length overall may or may not go up.  Do the math.

That said, employment protection shifts the burden of unemployment from the average worker onto those who are &quot;bad risks&quot; from an employer&#039;s POV, in exactly the same way as making it hard for landlords to evict bad tenants ensures that homelessness is confined to the most marginalised (who are likely to be the worst risks from a landlord&#039;s POV).  Neither is a good thing if you&#039;re worried about &quot;social exclusion&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>No, the average length of job search for the average <b>worker who is not working</b> goes up.  But there are now more otherwise-would-be-fired workers with a search length of zero, so the average search length overall may or may not go up.  Do the math.</p>

	<p>That said, employment protection shifts the burden of unemployment from the average worker onto those who are &#8220;bad risks&#8221; from an employer&#8217;s <span class="caps">POV</span>, in exactly the same way as making it hard for landlords to evict bad tenants ensures that homelessness is confined to the most marginalised (who are likely to be the worst risks from a landlord&#8217;s <span class="caps">POV</span>).  Neither is a good thing if you&#8217;re worried about &#8220;social exclusion&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: notsneaky</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/comment-page-1/#comment-210909</link>
		<dc:creator>notsneaky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 01:10:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/#comment-210909</guid>
		<description>...or to put it another way, if the length of job search for the *average* worker goes up (where in computing this average we include the otherwise-would-be-fired workers who&#039;s job search length is zero) then overall unemployment level still has to go up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8230;or to put it another way, if the length of job search for the <strong>average</strong> worker goes up (where in computing this average we include the otherwise-would-be-fired workers who&#8217;s job search length is zero) then overall unemployment level still has to go up.</p>
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		<title>By: notsneaky</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/comment-page-1/#comment-210907</link>
		<dc:creator>notsneaky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 00:05:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/#comment-210907</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s why I said &quot;probably&quot; - the consensus view is that the second effect is dominated by the first. The pro-employment effect of protection is to keep workers who would otherwise be fired in their jobs. The anti-employment effect is that employers, not knowing in advance the productivity of individual workers, will limit the hiring - but that also means that the inflow of otherwise-would-be-fired workers into the employment pool is limited which would make that effect small.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>That&#8217;s why I said &#8220;probably&#8221; &#8211; the consensus view is that the second effect is dominated by the first. The pro-employment effect of protection is to keep workers who would otherwise be fired in their jobs. The anti-employment effect is that employers, not knowing in advance the productivity of individual workers, will limit the hiring &#8211; but that also means that the inflow of otherwise-would-be-fired workers into the employment pool is limited which would make that effect small.</p>
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		<title>By: Welfare States and Bumblebees at Jacob Christensen</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/comment-page-1/#comment-210906</link>
		<dc:creator>Welfare States and Bumblebees at Jacob Christensen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2007 23:19:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/#comment-210906</guid>
		<description>[...] tried to come up with a worthwhile contribution to this post about economists and European welfare states but haven&#8217;t really hit on anything original. Not [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] tried to come up with a worthwhile contribution to this post about economists and European welfare states but haven&#8217;t really hit on anything original. Not [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Weiner</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/comment-page-1/#comment-210902</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Weiner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2007 21:33:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/#comment-210902</guid>
		<description>What are you talking about, Rich?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What are you talking about, Rich?</p>
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		<title>By: rich</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/comment-page-1/#comment-210884</link>
		<dc:creator>rich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2007 13:06:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/#comment-210884</guid>
		<description>Wait, are there still people who, knowing his recent history, still take Jim Heckman seriously?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Wait, are there still people who, knowing his recent history, still take Jim Heckman seriously?</p>
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		<title>By: derrida derider</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/comment-page-1/#comment-210883</link>
		<dc:creator>derrida derider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2007 11:51:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/#comment-210883</guid>
		<description>not so, notsneaky.  High job protection certainly decreases flows from unemployment to employment, raising average duration of unemployment, but it also decreases flows from employment to unemployment - the theoretic effect on the level of unemployment is ambiguous.

I agree with Tim - to speak of &quot;Europe&quot; in this context is to conflate very different labour market institutions and outcomes.  Some countries have lower unemployment than the US, some much higher.  And the point of this paper is that those outcomes seem only weakly correlated, at best, with the institutions.

As an aside, when the 1994 OECD Jobs Study came out its studied ignoring of fairly obvious points such as high unemployment leading to high benefits rates (rather than the reverse), along with its adoption of arbitrary lags with no prior theoretical justification to try and make the econometrics fit, led me to dismiss it as an ideological hatchet job at the time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>not so, notsneaky.  High job protection certainly decreases flows from unemployment to employment, raising average duration of unemployment, but it also decreases flows from employment to unemployment &#8211; the theoretic effect on the level of unemployment is ambiguous.</p>

	<p>I agree with Tim &#8211; to speak of &#8220;Europe&#8221; in this context is to conflate very different labour market institutions and outcomes.  Some countries have lower unemployment than the US, some much higher.  And the point of this paper is that those outcomes seem only weakly correlated, at best, with the institutions.</p>

	<p>As an aside, when the 1994 <span class="caps">OECD </span>Jobs Study came out its studied ignoring of fairly obvious points such as high unemployment leading to high benefits rates (rather than the reverse), along with its adoption of arbitrary lags with no prior theoretical justification to try and make the econometrics fit, led me to dismiss it as an ideological hatchet job at the time.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Worstall</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/comment-page-1/#comment-210868</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Worstall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2007 07:56:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/#comment-210868</guid>
		<description>Henry, I end up having the same sorts of arguments with many US types from both sides of the ideological divide. Whether or not you like the Nordic models is more a matter of your a priori views on siuch things as social justice, the level of redistribution etc. The Med models, certainly in this unemployment issue, seem simply not to work, in the sense that they actively create unemployment when they&#039;re supposed to do the opposite.
Unless these differences are teased out (and it&#039;s not just in the US that these distinctions need to be made) then we&#039;ll never get the debate to where it ought to be: which things shouldn&#039;t we be doing because they are counter productive and which things should we indeed be arguing about from our different world views.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Henry, I end up having the same sorts of arguments with many US types from both sides of the ideological divide. Whether or not you like the Nordic models is more a matter of your a priori views on siuch things as social justice, the level of redistribution etc. The Med models, certainly in this unemployment issue, seem simply not to work, in the sense that they actively create unemployment when they&#8217;re supposed to do the opposite.<br />
Unless these differences are teased out (and it&#8217;s not just in the US that these distinctions need to be made) then we&#8217;ll never get the debate to where it ought to be: which things shouldn&#8217;t we be doing because they are counter productive and which things should we indeed be arguing about from our different world views.</p>
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		<title>By: notsneaky</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/comment-page-1/#comment-210854</link>
		<dc:creator>notsneaky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2007 22:03:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/#comment-210854</guid>
		<description>If it increases the duration than it would probably also increase the level since at any point in time there would be more people in between jobs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If it increases the duration than it would probably also increase the level since at any point in time there would be more people in between jobs.</p>
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		<title>By: mq</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/comment-page-1/#comment-210844</link>
		<dc:creator>mq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2007 15:58:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/#comment-210844</guid>
		<description>Following up on 18: I thought there was some pretty good evidence that high job protections for current employees increase the duration of unemployment (though not necessarily the level), probably by making employers reluctant to hire. I thought there was general consensus on how this contributed to an &quot;insider/outsider&quot; situation in the labor market.

This is different than the question of the relationship between unemployment benefits and level of unemployment.

Am I wrong about this? I haven&#039;t kept up with the recent literature.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Following up on 18: I thought there was some pretty good evidence that high job protections for current employees increase the duration of unemployment (though not necessarily the level), probably by making employers reluctant to hire. I thought there was general consensus on how this contributed to an &#8220;insider/outsider&#8221; situation in the labor market.</p>

	<p>This is different than the question of the relationship between unemployment benefits and level of unemployment.</p>

	<p>Am I wrong about this? I haven&#8217;t kept up with the recent literature.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/comment-page-1/#comment-210840</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2007 14:12:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/#comment-210840</guid>
		<description>alexandre - as it happens (not that there&#039;s any reason you should know this) I am a transplanted European, and European political economy is my academic specialization. Not unemployment and employment in particular, but I know enough about the debate to be able to say with confidence that you are quite wrong when you say that this discussion is a &quot;bit strange&quot; from an European point of view. And given that one of the ur-texts in the debate is the 1994 OECD jobs study, which was (correctly) perceived as a concerted attack on European labour market institutions, the role of the OECD is not only directly pertinent but overwhelmingly important. And the point of the Howell et al. paper is that the broad literature on this topic is based on crap econometrics (I&#039;ll note for the record that I am not an econometrician myself, but also note that Heckman seems satisfied with this aspect of the paper, except insofar as he believes that it hasn&#039;t gone far enough).

Tim - you are absolutely right on the different models etc - but my target here was less the European welfare state as it actually exists than as it is represented in US debate. It should be noted perhaps in passing that many US lefties who like the &#039;European model&#039; aren&#039;t much more sophisticated than right wing critics in making these important distinctions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>alexandre &#8211; as it happens (not that there&#8217;s any reason you should know this) I am a transplanted European, and European political economy is my academic specialization. Not unemployment and employment in particular, but I know enough about the debate to be able to say with confidence that you are quite wrong when you say that this discussion is a &#8220;bit strange&#8221; from an European point of view. And given that one of the ur-texts in the debate is the 1994 <span class="caps">OECD</span> jobs study, which was (correctly) perceived as a concerted attack on European labour market institutions, the role of the <span class="caps">OECD</span> is not only directly pertinent but overwhelmingly important. And the point of the Howell et al. paper is that the broad literature on this topic is based on crap econometrics (I&#8217;ll note for the record that I am not an econometrician myself, but also note that Heckman seems satisfied with this aspect of the paper, except insofar as he believes that it hasn&#8217;t gone far enough).</p>

	<p>Tim &#8211; you are absolutely right on the different models etc &#8211; but my target here was less the European welfare state as it actually exists than as it is represented in US debate. It should be noted perhaps in passing that many US lefties who like the &#8216;European model&#8217; aren&#8217;t much more sophisticated than right wing critics in making these important distinctions.</p>
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		<title>By: alexandre delaigue</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/comment-page-1/#comment-210831</link>
		<dc:creator>alexandre delaigue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2007 10:54:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/#comment-210831</guid>
		<description>&quot;my particular ire here is aimed exactly at the op-eds/OECD reports etc which do seek to build grand claims on what seem to be very weak foundations.&quot;

Grand claims like &quot;welfare state is a very bad thing&quot; is not what you get in oecd reports. The last oecd employment outlook :

http://www.oecd.org/document/12/0,3343,en_2649_37457_38792716_1_1_1_37457,00.html

explains that offshoring increases workers&#039;vulnerability, that governments must &quot;do more&quot;, finance welfare with income or VA taxes rather than payroll taxes, and praises high-taxed denmark. OK, it is a bit Econ 101, you may agree with it or not, but it is mostly plausible policies based on plausible stories and facts, not ideologically-based grand claims about the necessity to dismantle the Very Bad European Welfare State.
From a european point of view, this kind of discussion is a bit strange. Unemployment is not a very hot subject in US academic economics, because it is not really a problem in the country; it has been replaced by income inequality and poverty (it seems that as soon as an economic problem is nt an american problem, it is not an economic problem any more). I think it has created a general ignorance (there are, of course, exceptions) about the subject, so that if you ask an american economist about unemployment in Europe, he will answer quickly &quot;ho, probably the cost of the welfare state&quot; an answer which means in fact &quot;I have no idea&quot;.
But if you go out of american economics and look at papers and people who really study the subject, you find a big amount of studies, showing that (surprise!) the subject is hard, but incentive-based economics works quite well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;my particular ire here is aimed exactly at the op-eds/OECD reports etc which do seek to build grand claims on what seem to be very weak foundations.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Grand claims like &#8220;welfare state is a very bad thing&#8221; is not what you get in oecd reports. The last oecd employment outlook :</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.oecd.org/document/12/0,3343,en_2649_37457_38792716_1_1_1_37457,00.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.oecd.org/document/12/0,3343,en_2649_37457_38792716_1_1_1_37457,00.html</a></p>

	<p>explains that offshoring increases workers&#8217;vulnerability, that governments must &#8220;do more&#8221;, finance welfare with income or VA taxes rather than payroll taxes, and praises high-taxed denmark. OK, it is a bit Econ 101, you may agree with it or not, but it is mostly plausible policies based on plausible stories and facts, not ideologically-based grand claims about the necessity to dismantle the Very Bad European Welfare State.<br />
From a european point of view, this kind of discussion is a bit strange. Unemployment is not a very hot subject in US academic economics, because it is not really a problem in the country; it has been replaced by income inequality and poverty (it seems that as soon as an economic problem is nt an american problem, it is not an economic problem any more). I think it has created a general ignorance (there are, of course, exceptions) about the subject, so that if you ask an american economist about unemployment in Europe, he will answer quickly &#8220;ho, probably the cost of the welfare state&#8221; an answer which means in fact &#8220;I have no idea&#8221;.<br />
But if you go out of american economics and look at papers and people who really study the subject, you find a big amount of studies, showing that (surprise!) the subject is hard, but incentive-based economics works quite well.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Worstall</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/comment-page-1/#comment-210829</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Worstall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2007 10:43:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/#comment-210829</guid>
		<description>I thought we were now supposed to distinguish between the three/four different types of &quot;European labour market rigidities&quot; now? Nordic (high unemployment benefits, low job protections), Rhineland (high for both), Mediterranean (high job protections, low benefits) and the sorta fourth, the UK or Anglo Saxon model (not really &quot;European&quot; in this sense, low for both).
Given both the differences between them and the different results are we actually getting anywhere by referring to them all as &quot;European&quot; and treating them the same?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I thought we were now supposed to distinguish between the three/four different types of &#8220;European labour market rigidities&#8221; now? Nordic (high unemployment benefits, low job protections), Rhineland (high for both), Mediterranean (high job protections, low benefits) and the sorta fourth, the UK or Anglo Saxon model (not really &#8220;European&#8221; in this sense, low for both).<br />
Given both the differences between them and the different results are we actually getting anywhere by referring to them all as &#8220;European&#8221; and treating them the same?</p>
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		<title>By: notsneaky</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/comment-page-1/#comment-210820</link>
		<dc:creator>notsneaky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2007 07:25:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/14/economists-journalists-and-european-welfare-states/#comment-210820</guid>
		<description>&quot;One of the points Baker makes in the post linked to above is that it isn’t, once you take into account the differences in the methods for counting unemployment.&quot;

Yes that&#039;s one possibility but 1) it just doesn&#039;t jive with intuition and casual observation, 2) once you control for the difference in counting, the difference in rates could go other way, particularly since in US unemployment benefits are more closely tied to actively looking for a job (ie. being unemployed as opposed to not in labor force) and 3) the authors basically just speculate that this could be the case with little to back it up. At least as far as I&#039;ve gotten into the paper (about a half way)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;One of the points Baker makes in the post linked to above is that it isn&#8217;t, once you take into account the differences in the methods for counting unemployment.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Yes that&#8217;s one possibility but 1) it just doesn&#8217;t jive with intuition and casual observation, 2) once you control for the difference in counting, the difference in rates could go other way, particularly since in US unemployment benefits are more closely tied to actively looking for a job (ie. being unemployed as opposed to not in labor force) and 3) the authors basically just speculate that this could be the case with little to back it up. At least as far as I&#8217;ve gotten into the paper (about a half way)</p>
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