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	<title>Comments on: The perils of photography</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Watson Aname</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/comment-page-1/#comment-211369</link>
		<dc:creator>Watson Aname</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 16:52:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/#comment-211369</guid>
		<description>Seth, you&#039;ve misread me and that makes some of what you said of-base, so I&#039;ll just skip those bits.  We agree entirely about what photographers &lt;i&gt;should&lt;/i&gt; do, what I was bringing up was the fact (as I understand it, and law varies of course) that at least in many countries in a public place you are not legally entitled to deny someone photographing you, period.  Without a model release there are limits on how they may use such photos, but not limits on actually taking them.

If you could claim actual voyeurism (not at all obvious from your original comment) it may be quite different, of course.

Thus the assed kicked thing, that was not a comment on the likelihood (as you say, who knows).  The point was if you initiate a violent response you open yourself up to charges and you don&#039;t have any protection because this person wasn&#039;t doing anything they are not entitled by law to do.  So if you `win&#039; the scuffle you are clearly legally in the wrong, whereas if you lose ... well, you&#039;ve lost and also probably have no legal recourse (for the beating, or the photos).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Seth, you&#8217;ve misread me and that makes some of what you said of-base, so I&#8217;ll just skip those bits.  We agree entirely about what photographers <i>should</i> do, what I was bringing up was the fact (as I understand it, and law varies of course) that at least in many countries in a public place you are not legally entitled to deny someone photographing you, period.  Without a model release there are limits on how they may use such photos, but not limits on actually taking them.</p>

	<p>If you could claim actual voyeurism (not at all obvious from your original comment) it may be quite different, of course.</p>

	<p>Thus the assed kicked thing, that was not a comment on the likelihood (as you say, who knows).  The point was if you initiate a violent response you open yourself up to charges and you don&#8217;t have any protection because this person wasn&#8217;t doing anything they are not entitled by law to do.  So if you `win&#8217; the scuffle you are clearly legally in the wrong, whereas if you lose &#8230; well, you&#8217;ve lost and also probably have no legal recourse (for the beating, or the photos).</p>
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		<title>By: seth e</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/comment-page-1/#comment-211313</link>
		<dc:creator>seth e</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 01:33:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/#comment-211313</guid>
		<description>On a more general note there&#039;s a kinks song you should look up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>On a more general note there&#8217;s a kinks song you should look up.</p>
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		<title>By: seth e</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/comment-page-1/#comment-211312</link>
		<dc:creator>seth e</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 01:29:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/#comment-211312</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not talking about being caught in someones viewfinder but about being the chosen subject of repeated photographs in one instance by a german tourist in Spain who wanted to watch me up close as I worked outside a woodshop. The more I protested the more he clicked away as if the camera in front of his face was a defence. 

If you don&#039;t understand the relation of photography to voyeurism that&#039;s your problem.8ut I had a photo teacher, a well known photographer, who began each semester with a lecture about one rule:never, never, take a photograph of a person even a homeless bum without his permission. I&#039;ve mentioned this before here in relation to the mythologies of objectivity and  journalism and other professions based on social observation and  gotten the equivalent of blank stares in response. 

The neoliberal imagination. What else to say?
Get my ass kicked? Doubtful but who knows.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m not talking about being caught in someones viewfinder but about being the chosen subject of repeated photographs in one instance by a german tourist in Spain who wanted to watch me up close as I worked outside a woodshop. The more I protested the more he clicked away as if the camera in front of his face was a defence.</p>

	<p>If you don&#8217;t understand the relation of photography to voyeurism that&#8217;s your problem.8ut I had a photo teacher, a well known photographer, who began each semester with a lecture about one rule:never, never, take a photograph of a person even a homeless bum without his permission. I&#8217;ve mentioned this before here in relation to the mythologies of objectivity and  journalism and other professions based on social observation and  gotten the equivalent of blank stares in response.</p>

	<p>The neoliberal imagination. What else to say?<br />
Get my ass kicked? Doubtful but who knows.</p>
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		<title>By: Watson Aname</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/comment-page-1/#comment-211298</link>
		<dc:creator>Watson Aname</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 18:21:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/#comment-211298</guid>
		<description>Seth:  Not that I support taking photographs of someone against their stated will, but legally in most places I know of, you haven&#039;t a leg to stand on so long as you are both in a public space.  Which means you&#039;re quite likely to be trading off the lose-lose situation of either getting your ass kicked (with them having a perfectly viable self defence claim) or facing battery charges yourself.  Something to think about, anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Seth:  Not that I support taking photographs of someone against their stated will, but legally in most places I know of, you haven&#8217;t a leg to stand on so long as you are both in a public space.  Which means you&#8217;re quite likely to be trading off the lose-lose situation of either getting your ass kicked (with them having a perfectly viable self defence claim) or facing battery charges yourself.  Something to think about, anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Edenbaum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/comment-page-1/#comment-211256</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Edenbaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 07:10:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/#comment-211256</guid>
		<description>Having been photographed twice by people [both German] who did not understand me shaking my head, saying &quot;no, nein, ne&quot; and finally putting up a hand to block the lens, the next time someone ignores my request I&#039;ll have have the same response as the Greek policemen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Having been photographed twice by people [both German] who did not understand me shaking my head, saying &#8220;no, nein, ne&#8221; and finally putting up a hand to block the lens, the next time someone ignores my request I&#8217;ll have have the same response as the Greek policemen.</p>
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		<title>By: JJ</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/comment-page-1/#comment-211175</link>
		<dc:creator>JJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 11:01:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/#comment-211175</guid>
		<description>yes, it appears that what happened in Greece happens in the States and UK often enough as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>yes, it appears that what happened in Greece happens in the States and UK often enough as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Slocum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/comment-page-1/#comment-211118</link>
		<dc:creator>Slocum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 19:20:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/#comment-211118</guid>
		<description>Allies in unexpected places?

&lt;i&gt;I&#039;ve argued in the past that other police activities should be recorded, particularly SWAT-style raids that involve forced entry into private homes.

But it shouldn&#039;t end there. Legislators need to repeal laws explicitly forbidding the recording, photographing or videotaping of police officers. And to the extent that more generalized wiretapping laws meant for the general public also apply to the police, they should be amended to allow private citizens to record officers while they&#039;re on duty.

This isn&#039;t to say police don&#039;t have the same privacy rights as everyone else. They do — when they aren&#039;t on duty, in possession of a sidearm and carrying with them the authority that comes with enforcing the law of the state.

But while they&#039;re on duty, they serve the public. And the public, their employer, should have every right to keep them accountable.&lt;/i&gt;

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,284075,00.html

&lt;i&gt;So there you have the dark side of &quot;privacy&quot; -- the law aimed at protecting privacy ends up quite improperly restricting people&#039;s liberty, and people&#039;s ability to protect themselves against police misconduct.&lt;/i&gt;

http://www.volokh.com/posts/1164051408.shtml</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Allies in unexpected places?</p>

	<p><i>I&#8217;ve argued in the past that other police activities should be recorded, particularly <span class="caps">SWAT</span>-style raids that involve forced entry into private homes.</i></p>

	<p>But it shouldn&#8217;t end there. Legislators need to repeal laws explicitly forbidding the recording, photographing or videotaping of police officers. And to the extent that more generalized wiretapping laws meant for the general public also apply to the police, they should be amended to allow private citizens to record officers while they&#8217;re on duty.</p>

	<p>This isn&#8217;t to say police don&#8217;t have the same privacy rights as everyone else. They do &#8212; when they aren&#8217;t on duty, in possession of a sidearm and carrying with them the authority that comes with enforcing the law of the state.</p>

	<p>But while they&#8217;re on duty, they serve the public. And the public, their employer, should have every right to keep them accountable.</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,284075,00.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,284075,00.html</a></p>

	<p><i>So there you have the dark side of &#8220;privacy&#8221;&#8212;the law aimed at protecting privacy ends up quite improperly restricting people&#8217;s liberty, and people&#8217;s ability to protect themselves against police misconduct.</i></p>

	<p><a href="http://www.volokh.com/posts/1164051408.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.volokh.com/posts/1164051408.shtml</a></p>
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		<title>By: Watson Aname</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/comment-page-1/#comment-211107</link>
		<dc:creator>Watson Aname</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 16:04:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/#comment-211107</guid>
		<description>Reginald, in my experience that take on it (#7) is deeply mistaken.  The process of learning to take photographs well is a process of learning to really look around you.  People may briefly fall into a pattern such as you describe, but that is a neophyte error, and all but a very few will progress beyond it quickly.

Of all the people I know, the ones who are most perceptive about the world around them are invariable photographers or artists (or both).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Reginald, in my experience that take on it (#7) is deeply mistaken.  The process of learning to take photographs well is a process of learning to really look around you.  People may briefly fall into a pattern such as you describe, but that is a neophyte error, and all but a very few will progress beyond it quickly.</p>

	<p>Of all the people I know, the ones who are most perceptive about the world around them are invariable photographers or artists (or both).</p>
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		<title>By: Eszter</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/comment-page-1/#comment-211083</link>
		<dc:creator>Eszter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 13:39:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/#comment-211083</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;A camera is an instrument that teaches most people to close their eyes to the beauty around them.&lt;/i&gt;

If you&#039;ve been following the experiences Chris and I have been describing here then you may have learned that if anything, it is precisely the opposite of this that frequent use of our cameras has let us do. We notice way more around us than we used to before, we appreciate simple scenes for things we would never have glanced at twice earlier. So it depends on your uses and approach.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>A camera is an instrument that teaches most people to close their eyes to the beauty around them.</i></p>

	<p>If you&#8217;ve been following the experiences Chris and I have been describing here then you may have learned that if anything, it is precisely the opposite of this that frequent use of our cameras has let us do. We notice way more around us than we used to before, we appreciate simple scenes for things we would never have glanced at twice earlier. So it depends on your uses and approach.</p>
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		<title>By: john b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/comment-page-1/#comment-211073</link>
		<dc:creator>john b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 12:36:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/#comment-211073</guid>
		<description>Re #6, I&#039;d very much like a photograph of a sign my friend saw in ?Boston in ?2004, which read something like &quot;it is illegal to mock the security procedures in operation in this airport&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Re #6, I&#8217;d very much like a photograph of a sign my friend saw in ?Boston in ?2004, which read something like &#8220;it is illegal to mock the security procedures in operation in this airport&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: jaywalker</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/comment-page-1/#comment-211058</link>
		<dc:creator>jaywalker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 08:43:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/#comment-211058</guid>
		<description>One place where photography restrictions have been lifted in recent times are museums. It used to be extremely difficult to take legal pictures. As postcards are geared towards the median buyer, one had to resort to sneaky ways to get a picture of the more special objects.

Now, most museums tolerate non-flash amateur photography (I hate the flashing morons). Only special exhibitions prohibit them to safeguard those &quot;vital&quot; copyrights.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>One place where photography restrictions have been lifted in recent times are museums. It used to be extremely difficult to take legal pictures. As postcards are geared towards the median buyer, one had to resort to sneaky ways to get a picture of the more special objects.</p>

	<p>Now, most museums tolerate non-flash amateur photography (I hate the flashing morons). Only special exhibitions prohibit them to safeguard those &#8220;vital&#8221; copyrights.</p>
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		<title>By: Reginald</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/comment-page-1/#comment-211057</link>
		<dc:creator>Reginald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 08:36:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/#comment-211057</guid>
		<description>A camera is an instrument that teaches most people to close their eyes to the beauty around them.  Too much time obsessing about the right shot and too little time enjoying the moment and soaking up the views.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>A camera is an instrument that teaches most people to close their eyes to the beauty around them.  Too much time obsessing about the right shot and too little time enjoying the moment and soaking up the views.</p>
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		<title>By: Harald Korneliussen</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/comment-page-1/#comment-211045</link>
		<dc:creator>Harald Korneliussen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 06:30:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/#comment-211045</guid>
		<description>There is one thing I would like to take pictures of and post to flickr, if I was brave enough: &quot;Photography strictly forbidden&quot;-signs. Saw them at the local airport recently.

Security circus and soup nazis offend me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There is one thing I would like to take pictures of and post to flickr, if I was brave enough: &#8220;Photography strictly forbidden&#8221;-signs. Saw them at the local airport recently.</p>

	<p>Security circus and soup nazis offend me.</p>
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		<title>By: jaytee</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/comment-page-1/#comment-211042</link>
		<dc:creator>jaytee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 04:15:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/#comment-211042</guid>
		<description>#3: Thanks for linking to that. I&#039;m reminded of the rule of thumb for traveling in tyrannical regimes: do not take any pictures of infrastructure, government buildings, airports, etc., because apparently tyranny and paranoia go hand in hand. This story isn&#039;t quite Idi Amin&#039;s Uganda, but it is far too close for my comfort.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#3: Thanks for linking to that. I&#8217;m reminded of the rule of thumb for traveling in tyrannical regimes: do not take any pictures of infrastructure, government buildings, airports, etc., because apparently tyranny and paranoia go hand in hand. This story isn&#8217;t quite Idi Amin&#8217;s Uganda, but it is far too close for my comfort.</p>
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		<title>By: swampcracker</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/comment-page-1/#comment-211037</link>
		<dc:creator>swampcracker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 01:54:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/17/the-perils-of-photography/#comment-211037</guid>
		<description>Even with a 600 mm lens, I encounter hazardous gators, snakes, and chalk lines (a stream of white liquid excrement left by irate birds).  Rule of thumb:  Use a telephoto lens from a distance when shooting demonstrations attended by the gendarmerie.  Short focal length lens are just too ‘in your face.’</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Even with a 600 mm lens, I encounter hazardous gators, snakes, and chalk lines (a stream of white liquid excrement left by irate birds).  Rule of thumb:  Use a telephoto lens from a distance when shooting demonstrations attended by the gendarmerie.  Short focal length lens are just too &#8216;in your face.&#8217;</p>
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