Comments on: “The people of Iran are asking themselves whether the UN Security Council is only decisive and effective when it comes to the suspension of the enrichment of uranium” http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sun, 22 Nov 2009 08:11:48 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: seth e http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/comment-page-2/#comment-212113 seth e Thu, 27 Sep 2007 07:01:41 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/#comment-212113 Barbarismo The blackberry has a mind of its own. And a quick witted one too. Barbarismo

The blackberry has a mind of its own.
And a quick witted one too.

]]> By: seth e http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/comment-page-2/#comment-212111 seth e Thu, 27 Sep 2007 06:55:56 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/#comment-212111 Well that didn't work did it? And we all got kicked out of the internet cafe early for some reason. I had included Tony karon's latest post and a recent one by Helena Cobban on the holocaust rescue miniseries on Iranian TV. The letter linked above is written in weak kneed internationalese. And I'm more than a little of the opinions on issues of morality of those who can refer even in jest to one country's 'realness' on the question of boycotts ask the Palestinians and their academics and do as they request. In the meantime the ignoesnce of Iranian culture oilitical and otherwise continues to disgust. Its almost as bad as gaving to listen to Americans whine about Darfur. The foundations of such rationalism rest on pure symptom. And Iran has the right undernational law to nuclear power and the Israelis have no right to deny the will of the Iranian people. I may not agree with them but the majority of Iranians are in favor. Iranian and israeli culture are meeting in the middle ground between civilization and barbarismo. But they're headed in opposite directions. Which is which? The answer is obvious if you're paying attention. Well that didn’t work did it?
And we all got kicked out of the internet cafe early for some reason.

I had included Tony karon’s latest post and a recent one by Helena Cobban on the holocaust rescue miniseries on Iranian TV.

The letter linked above is written in weak kneed internationalese. And I’m more than a little of the opinions on issues of morality of those who can refer even in jest to one country’s ‘realness’ on the question of boycotts ask the Palestinians and their academics and do as they request. In the meantime the ignoesnce of Iranian culture oilitical and otherwise continues to disgust.

Its almost as bad as gaving to listen to Americans whine about Darfur.
The foundations of such rationalism rest on pure symptom.
And Iran has the right undernational law to nuclear power and the Israelis have no right to deny the will of the Iranian people. I may not agree with them but the majority of Iranians are in favor.

Iranian and israeli culture are meeting in the middle ground between civilization and barbarismo. But they’re headed in opposite directions.
Which is which?

The answer is obvious if you’re paying attention.

]]> By: seth edenbaum http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/comment-page-2/#comment-212106 seth edenbaum Thu, 27 Sep 2007 06:27:10 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/#comment-212106 <a> </a><a> Cobban links to this </a><a href="http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/abdb5d3c-67da-11dc-8906-0000779fd2ac.html" rel="nofollow">Khatami plots comeback</a>


Cobban links to this Khatami plots comeback

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/comment-page-2/#comment-212056 abb1 Wed, 26 Sep 2007 21:42:13 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/#comment-212056 So, the US is the real victim here - being forced by the evil UNSC states to veto every anti-Israel resolution in recent history. The US would've gladly agreed to impose a slightly watered-down punishment on Israel, if given a chance. <i>I</i> am supposed to be the resident clown here, Dan. So, the US is the real victim here – being forced by the evil UNSC states to veto every anti-Israel resolution in recent history. The US would’ve gladly agreed to impose a slightly watered-down punishment on Israel, if given a chance.

I am supposed to be the resident clown here, Dan.

]]> By: Doctor Slack http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/comment-page-2/#comment-212051 Doctor Slack Wed, 26 Sep 2007 21:20:20 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/#comment-212051 Oh and: <i>(If you’ll recall, my whole point was that American support doesn’t insulate Israel any more than Russian and Chinese support insulates Iran.)</i> And if you'll recall, my point was that claiming Russian and Chinese support puts Iran at parity with Israel is, shall we say, misleading. (And yes, the "nuclear ambitions" stuff really does show telltale signs of being bullshit, in the same way that Saddam Hussein and WMDs were bullshit. Funny, I remember being accused of conspiracy theory then, too!) Oh and: (If you’ll recall, my whole point was that American support doesn’t insulate Israel any more than Russian and Chinese support insulates Iran.)

And if you’ll recall, my point was that claiming Russian and Chinese support puts Iran at parity with Israel is, shall we say, misleading. (And yes, the “nuclear ambitions” stuff really does show telltale signs of being bullshit, in the same way that Saddam Hussein and WMDs were bullshit. Funny, I remember being accused of conspiracy theory then, too!)

]]> By: Doctor Slack http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/comment-page-2/#comment-212044 Doctor Slack Wed, 26 Sep 2007 21:07:18 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/#comment-212044 <i>I forgot all about that Elders of Zion conspiracy thing.</i> Zing! That stupid cheap shot wasn't predictable at all, Dan! You're four for four! I forgot all about that Elders of Zion conspiracy thing.

Zing! That stupid cheap shot wasn’t predictable at all, Dan! You’re four for four!

]]> By: Dan Simon http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/comment-page-2/#comment-212042 Dan Simon Wed, 26 Sep 2007 21:03:46 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/#comment-212042 <em>Because after all, the fake “nuclear crisis” with Iran and buildup to an attack thereon can have nothing to do with Israel,</em> Yes, of course--I forgot all about that Elders of Zion conspiracy thing. Other than that, though... <em>and the US has consistently advocated tough measures against Israeli escalations of the conflict with the Palestinians</em> Exactly--approximately as tough as the measures that Russia and China have advocated against Iran's human rights violations, support for terrorism and nuclear ambitions. (If you'll recall, my whole point was that American support doesn't insulate Israel any more than Russian and Chinese support insulates Iran.) <em>and it is not the norm for American politicians to proclaim undying support for Israel.</em> I don't know about "undying support", but Russian politicians tend to be roughly as warm and friendly towards Iran as their American counterparts are towards Israel--at least on those days when Iran isn't in arrears on its armaments and nuclear technology payments. <em>Speaking as an American taxpayer here: If it’s true that the billions of dollars in aid we provide to Israel every year is as meaningless as Dan says, can we have it back?</em> Well, at least with respect to the non-military aid, no less a light than Binyamin Netanyahu argues for its termination, and that's certainly good enough for me. (I should point out, though, that he may have an ulterior motive: this aid is largely granted to honor a reciprocal deal worked out as part of the 1979 peace treaty with Egypt, and its termination may give political momentum to terminating American aid to Egypt, as well. I think that would be just fine, but others may disagree.) As for the military aid, it's probably less important than folks like Netanyahu will claim, but it's also strongly leveraged by the restrictions that direct most of it towards the purchase of expensive American arms technology, raising production volumes and thus reducing amortized development costs. By military standards, then, it's really just a drop in the bucket. <em>Is in your mind ‘being capable to veto’ the same thing as ‘having vetoed a whole bunch’?</em> Iran's backers have certainly made plain their willingness to veto resolutions against Iran that they consider too harsh. For a variety of reasons, those proposing such resolutions have generally chosen to water them down rather than force the veto, whereas those proposing anti-Israel resolutions have been happy to force an American veto. The effect is essentially the same, though. Because after all, the fake “nuclear crisis” with Iran and buildup to an attack thereon can have nothing to do with Israel,

Yes, of course—I forgot all about that Elders of Zion conspiracy thing. Other than that, though…

and the US has consistently advocated tough measures against Israeli escalations of the conflict with the Palestinians

Exactly—approximately as tough as the measures that Russia and China have advocated against Iran’s human rights violations, support for terrorism and nuclear ambitions. (If you’ll recall, my whole point was that American support doesn’t insulate Israel any more than Russian and Chinese support insulates Iran.)

and it is not the norm for American politicians to proclaim undying support for Israel.

I don’t know about “undying support”, but Russian politicians tend to be roughly as warm and friendly towards Iran as their American counterparts are towards Israel—at least on those days when Iran isn’t in arrears on its armaments and nuclear technology payments.

Speaking as an American taxpayer here: If it’s true that the billions of dollars in aid we provide to Israel every year is as meaningless as Dan says, can we have it back?

Well, at least with respect to the non-military aid, no less a light than Binyamin Netanyahu argues for its termination, and that’s certainly good enough for me. (I should point out, though, that he may have an ulterior motive: this aid is largely granted to honor a reciprocal deal worked out as part of the 1979 peace treaty with Egypt, and its termination may give political momentum to terminating American aid to Egypt, as well. I think that would be just fine, but others may disagree.)

As for the military aid, it’s probably less important than folks like Netanyahu will claim, but it’s also strongly leveraged by the restrictions that direct most of it towards the purchase of expensive American arms technology, raising production volumes and thus reducing amortized development costs. By military standards, then, it’s really just a drop in the bucket.

Is in your mind ‘being capable to veto’ the same thing as ‘having vetoed a whole bunch’?

Iran’s backers have certainly made plain their willingness to veto resolutions against Iran that they consider too harsh. For a variety of reasons, those proposing such resolutions have generally chosen to water them down rather than force the veto, whereas those proposing anti-Israel resolutions have been happy to force an American veto. The effect is essentially the same, though.

]]> By: Glorious Godfrey http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/comment-page-2/#comment-212000 Glorious Godfrey Wed, 26 Sep 2007 16:30:02 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/#comment-212000 (begin trollish digression) There are no surprises in Dr. Slack's link, really. The Israeli mainstream is mostly only concerned with straightforward comparisons of its military strength with those of its foes in the region. There's certainly very little faith in the transformative power of democracy, and not much interest in the things that the neo-cons and/or other Beltway insiders get hot and bothered about, like the geopolitics of oil or consigning pansy stuff like the Powell Doctrine to oblivion. This bit springs to mind: "Israel was more concerned with the relative military threat posed by Iran and Iraq, whereas neo-conservatives in the Bush administration were focused on regime change in Iraq as a low-cost way of leveraging more ambitious changes in the region." Hahaha, what a wonderful euphemism. Even sort-of leftist Serious Analysts in Washington appear to be somewhat afraid of being called "puerile America-bashers" by the likes of Dan Simon. (end trollish digression) (begin trollish digression)

There are no surprises in Dr. Slack’s link, really. The Israeli mainstream is mostly only concerned with straightforward comparisons of its military strength with those of its foes in the region. There’s certainly very little faith in the transformative power of democracy, and not much interest in the things that the neo-cons and/or other Beltway insiders get hot and bothered about, like the geopolitics of oil or consigning pansy stuff like the Powell Doctrine to oblivion.

This bit springs to mind:

“Israel was more concerned with the relative military threat posed by Iran and Iraq, whereas neo-conservatives in the Bush administration were focused on regime change in Iraq as a low-cost way of leveraging more ambitious changes in the region.”

Hahaha, what a wonderful euphemism. Even sort-of leftist Serious Analysts in Washington appear to be somewhat afraid of being called “puerile America-bashers” by the likes of Dan Simon.

(end trollish digression)

]]> By: Uncle Kvetch http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/comment-page-2/#comment-211997 Uncle Kvetch Wed, 26 Sep 2007 16:06:13 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/#comment-211997 Speaking as an American taxpayer here: If it's true that the billions of dollars in aid we provide to Israel every year is as meaningless as Dan says, can we have it back? Speaking as an American taxpayer here: If it’s true that the billions of dollars in aid we provide to Israel every year is as meaningless as Dan says, can we have it back?

]]> By: Doctor Slack http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/comment-page-1/#comment-211970 Doctor Slack Wed, 26 Sep 2007 13:58:53 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/#comment-211970 <i>I’m keen to hear all about the US military’s solemn commitment to protect Israel</i> Because after all, the fake "nuclear crisis" with Iran and buildup to an attack thereon can have <a href="http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/IH30Ak04.html" rel="nofollow">nothing to do with Israel</a>, and the US has consistently advocated tough measures against Israeli escalations of the conflict with the Palestinians and it is not the norm for American politicians to proclaim undying support for Israel. Dan, your brilliance continues to astound me. Hats off. I’m keen to hear all about the US military’s solemn commitment to protect Israel

Because after all, the fake “nuclear crisis” with Iran and buildup to an attack thereon can have nothing to do with Israel, and the US has consistently advocated tough measures against Israeli escalations of the conflict with the Palestinians and it is not the norm for American politicians to proclaim undying support for Israel. Dan, your brilliance continues to astound me. Hats off.

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/comment-page-1/#comment-211938 abb1 Wed, 26 Sep 2007 07:14:19 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/#comment-211938 <i>...if you believe that a cascade of UNSC-sponsored resolutions against Israel is all it would take to solve the Israeli-Palestinian dispute...</i> UNSC-sponsored resolutions could easily lead to economic sanctions and that would definitely resolve the dispute. <i>...Iran’s allies on the UNSC are every bit as capable of vetoing anti-Iran resolutions...</i> Hmmm, they are sure capable, but what's your point? Is in your mind 'being capable to veto' the same thing as 'having vetoed a whole bunch'? …if you believe that a cascade of UNSC-sponsored resolutions against Israel is all it would take to solve the Israeli-Palestinian dispute…

UNSC-sponsored resolutions could easily lead to economic sanctions and that would definitely resolve the dispute.

…Iran’s allies on the UNSC are every bit as capable of vetoing anti-Iran resolutions…

Hmmm, they are sure capable, but what’s your point? Is in your mind ‘being capable to veto’ the same thing as ‘having vetoed a whole bunch’?

]]> By: Dan Simon http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/comment-page-1/#comment-211935 Dan Simon Wed, 26 Sep 2007 05:42:50 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/#comment-211935 <em>Country that has United States and its army as an ally: Iran! No, wait…</em> I'm keen to hear all about the US military's solemn commitment to protect Israel, and all the actions that Israel's enemies would long ago have taken, but for fear of US military intervention. <em>i have no idea why you are merely “assuming” this, given the number of times america has been vetoed UNSC resolutions regarding israel.</em> Well, yes, if you believe that a cascade of UNSC-sponsored resolutions against Israel is all it would take to solve the Israeli-Palestinian dispute, then you would naturally assume US support for Israel to be the cause of the UN's failure. I happen to consider that belief laughably unrealistic, but regardless, my point stands--Iran's allies on the UNSC are every bit as capable of vetoing anti-Iran resolutions as the US is of vetoing anti-Israel resolutions. Country that has United States and its army as an ally: Iran! No, wait…

I’m keen to hear all about the US military’s solemn commitment to protect Israel, and all the actions that Israel’s enemies would long ago have taken, but for fear of US military intervention.

i have no idea why you are merely “assuming” this, given the number of times america has been vetoed UNSC resolutions regarding israel.

Well, yes, if you believe that a cascade of UNSC-sponsored resolutions against Israel is all it would take to solve the Israeli-Palestinian dispute, then you would naturally assume US support for Israel to be the cause of the UN’s failure. I happen to consider that belief laughably unrealistic, but regardless, my point stands—Iran’s allies on the UNSC are every bit as capable of vetoing anti-Iran resolutions as the US is of vetoing anti-Israel resolutions.

]]> By: snuh http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/comment-page-1/#comment-211924 snuh Wed, 26 Sep 2007 02:14:37 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/#comment-211924 "...assuming American support for Israel to be at the heart of the UN’s failure to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict..." i have no idea why you are merely "assuming" this, given the number of times america has been <a href="http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html" rel="nofollow">vetoed</a> UNSC resolutions regarding israel. “…assuming American support for Israel to be at the heart of the UN’s failure to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict…”

i have no idea why you are merely “assuming” this, given the number of times america has been vetoed UNSC resolutions regarding israel.

]]> By: Doctor Slack http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/comment-page-1/#comment-211920 Doctor Slack Wed, 26 Sep 2007 01:06:33 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/#comment-211920 Country that has United States and its army as an ally: Iran! No, wait... Country that has United States and its army as an ally: Iran! No, wait…

]]> By: Dan Simon http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/comment-page-1/#comment-211907 Dan Simon Tue, 25 Sep 2007 21:37:19 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/23/the-people-of-iran-are-asking-themselves-whether-the-un-security-council-is-only-decisive-and-effective-when-it-comes-to-the-suspension-of-the-enrichment-of-uranium/#comment-211907 <a href="http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/U.S._Assistance_to_Israel1.html" rel="nofollow">Total US aid to Israel</a> in 2005 and 2006, as a percentage of Israel's <a href="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/is.html" rel="nofollow">2006 GDP</a>: <b>3.1%</b> <a href="http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/Iran/Background.html" rel="nofollow">Total increase in oil export revenues</a> in 2005 and 2006, compared to 2004's total, as a percentage of Iran's <a href="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ir.html" rel="nofollow">2006 GDP</a>: <b>4.9%</b> Having a clue what you're talking about: <b>priceless</b> Total US aid to Israel in 2005 and 2006, as a percentage of Israel’s 2006 GDP: 3.1%
Total increase in oil export revenues in 2005 and 2006, compared to 2004’s total, as a percentage of Iran’s 2006 GDP: 4.9%

Having a clue what you’re talking about: priceless

]]>