Comments on: For a ballot of the UCU membership on the academic boycott of Israel http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sun, 22 Nov 2009 02:52:26 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: johng http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/comment-page-2/#comment-212476 johng Sun, 30 Sep 2007 18:11:32 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/#comment-212476 Its a little disturbing that the legal opinion on which ucu is acting involves not simply the absurd argument that a boycott breaches equal opportunities (oh there must be a number of regimes rubbing their hands togeather at the moment) but also the implication not only that we're not allowed to discuss this in our union, but that Palestinian unions who do support this call can't speak in our union (they have been informed that they are disinvited). Solidarity brothers and sisters. Very nice. Its a little disturbing that the legal opinion on which ucu is acting involves not simply the absurd argument that a boycott breaches equal opportunities (oh there must be a number of regimes rubbing their hands togeather at the moment) but also the implication not only that we’re not allowed to discuss this in our union, but that Palestinian unions who do support this call can’t speak in our union (they have been informed that they are disinvited).

Solidarity brothers and sisters. Very nice.

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/comment-page-2/#comment-212456 abb1 Sun, 30 Sep 2007 09:12:22 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/#comment-212456 First of all, criminalizing <i>American</i> companies disclosure of their connection with Israel to <i>American</i> citizens is not foreign policy, it's a domestic policy. And second: it's a policy as much Bolshevik as anything I can imagine. <i>On the other hand, the government of the UK hasn’t decided to turn the public universities of the UK into a tool of foreign policy in connection with the Israel-Palestine conflict. It could do so, and perhaps someday it will do so. It hasn’t yet, and until it does, it’s not for a union of university employees to decide that it must do so.</i> That's interesting. So, the public universities are merely a tool of the government, to be used for all kinds of things including the foreign policy. Sounds like you're not against a dictatorship per se, you're just against a dictatorship <i>of the proletariat</i>. Or rather, I'm guessing here, against any dictatorship that might do something unpleasant to Israel; that'd be highly immoral. Is that right? First of all, criminalizing American companies disclosure of their connection with Israel to American citizens is not foreign policy, it’s a domestic policy. And second: it’s a policy as much Bolshevik as anything I can imagine.

On the other hand, the government of the UK hasn’t decided to turn the public universities of the UK into a tool of foreign policy in connection with the Israel-Palestine conflict. It could do so, and perhaps someday it will do so. It hasn’t yet, and until it does, it’s not for a union of university employees to decide that it must do so.

That’s interesting. So, the public universities are merely a tool of the government, to be used for all kinds of things including the foreign policy. Sounds like you’re not against a dictatorship per se, you’re just against a dictatorship of the proletariat. Or rather, I’m guessing here, against any dictatorship that might do something unpleasant to Israel; that’d be highly immoral. Is that right?

]]> By: engels http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/comment-page-2/#comment-212453 engels Sun, 30 Sep 2007 05:21:36 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/#comment-212453 Bloix, any time you decide to stop making shit up, please let me know. Bloix, any time you decide to stop making shit up, please let me know.

]]> By: Bloix http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/comment-page-2/#comment-212448 Bloix Sun, 30 Sep 2007 02:43:24 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/#comment-212448 abb1 - in a democracy the government sets foreign policy. The foreign policy of the US is that the Arab League boycott was not to be complied with. (You apparently think that the US should have permitted private companies to be coerced into refusing to trade with Israel. The government of the US had a different view.) On the other hand, the government of the UK hasn't decided to turn the public universities of the UK into a tool of foreign policy in connection with the Israel-Palestine conflict. It could do so, and perhaps someday it will do so. It hasn't yet, and until it does, it's not for a union of university employees to decide that it must do so. As you are not a stupid person I conclude that you do not want to understand the distinction. Perhaps you, like Engels, are nostalgic for the dictatorship of the proletariat. abb1 – in a democracy the government sets foreign policy. The foreign policy of the US is that the Arab League boycott was not to be complied with. (You apparently think that the US should have permitted private companies to be coerced into refusing to trade with Israel. The government of the US had a different view.)

On the other hand, the government of the UK hasn’t decided to turn the public universities of the UK into a tool of foreign policy in connection with the Israel-Palestine conflict. It could do so, and perhaps someday it will do so. It hasn’t yet, and until it does, it’s not for a union of university employees to decide that it must do so. As you are not a stupid person I conclude that you do not want to understand the distinction. Perhaps you, like Engels, are nostalgic for the dictatorship of the proletariat.

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/comment-page-2/#comment-212442 abb1 Sat, 29 Sep 2007 22:23:02 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/#comment-212442 <i>And abb1 – it’s just extraordinary that you are arguing in favor of the legality of compliance with the Arab League boycott.</i> There you go, Bloix. It's odd how a helpful context suddenly and conveniently materializes just as something seemingly immoral and tyrannical needs to be rationalized, isn't it. And now try the same with your 'boycott by public employees is immoral' argument, if you will. And abb1 – it’s just extraordinary that you are arguing in favor of the legality of compliance with the Arab League boycott.

There you go, Bloix. It’s odd how a helpful context suddenly and conveniently materializes just as something seemingly immoral and tyrannical needs to be rationalized, isn’t it. And now try the same with your ‘boycott by public employees is immoral’ argument, if you will.

]]> By: Bloix http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/comment-page-2/#comment-212411 Bloix Sat, 29 Sep 2007 03:43:48 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/#comment-212411 May I point out that I have been arguing in threads on this site for over a year that the proposed boycott would likely be illegal. To me it has seemed plain as day that a union cannot utilize the assets of its member's employers to conduct a campaign to change the policies of a foreign nation. Only the unbellievable arrogance of the academic community, which seems to have confused academic freedom with immunity from legal constraints, would allow anyone to come to a different conclusion. And abb1 - it's just extraordinary that you are arguing in favor of the legality of compliance with the Arab League boycott. Do you know anything about it? Obviously not. But ignorance has never stopped you yet. May I point out that I have been arguing in threads on this site for over a year that the proposed boycott would likely be illegal. To me it has seemed plain as day that a union cannot utilize the assets of its member’s employers to conduct a campaign to change the policies of a foreign nation. Only the unbellievable arrogance of the academic community, which seems to have confused academic freedom with immunity from legal constraints, would allow anyone to come to a different conclusion.

And abb1 – it’s just extraordinary that you are arguing in favor of the legality of compliance with the Arab League boycott. Do you know anything about it? Obviously not. But ignorance has never stopped you yet.

]]> By: Chris Bertram http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/comment-page-2/#comment-212386 Chris Bertram Fri, 28 Sep 2007 22:27:30 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/#comment-212386 Your cynicism may well be justified, espcially given the reference to a "widely respected barrister". But, I repeat, I'd have like the issue to have been voted on by the membership. Your cynicism may well be justified, espcially given the reference to a “widely respected barrister”. But, I repeat, I’d have like the issue to have been voted on by the membership.

]]> By: ejh http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/comment-page-2/#comment-212377 ejh Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:48:29 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/#comment-212377 As it stands, of course, the effect of this legal advice (about which there is no reason to be uncynical - this issue has been debated several times before so where was the legal advice then?) is to institutionalise the equation of anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. It is another contribution to the prevention of debate as referred to in #23 above. As it stands, of course, the effect of this legal advice (about which there is no reason to be uncynical – this issue has been debated several times before so where was the legal advice then?) is to institutionalise the equation of anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. It is another contribution to the prevention of debate as referred to in #23 above.

]]> By: ejh http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/comment-page-2/#comment-212375 ejh Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:42:18 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/#comment-212375 I'm judging by Engage's <a href="http://www.engageonline.org.uk/blog/article.php?id=1433" rel="nofollow">reaction</a>. If Cde. Pike doesn't share their joy (as well as their typically scandalous and unscrupulous language - check out "Jew-hunts" at the end) then you can take the claim of his insincerity as withdrawn. In the meantime, this is an undemocratic schuck which should be described as such. I’m judging by Engage’s reaction. If Cde. Pike doesn’t share their joy (as well as their typically scandalous and unscrupulous language – check out “Jew-hunts” at the end) then you can take the claim of his insincerity as withdrawn. In the meantime, this is an undemocratic schuck which should be described as such.

]]> By: Chris Bertram http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/comment-page-2/#comment-212369 Chris Bertram Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:14:02 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/#comment-212369 Well I'm sorry you think I've made a fool of myself Justin. I've never been in favour of the boycott and I wanted the proposal defeated democratically rather than like this. As far as I know, that's what Jon Pike wanted too, and that's what I supported in the original post. Unless you think that Pike was behind the legal advice in some way, I don't think you have any reason to call him a "fake democrat". Well I’m sorry you think I’ve made a fool of myself Justin. I’ve never been in favour of the boycott and I wanted the proposal defeated democratically rather than like this. As far as I know, that’s what Jon Pike wanted too, and that’s what I supported in the original post. Unless you think that Pike was behind the legal advice in some way, I don’t think you have any reason to call him a “fake democrat”.

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/comment-page-2/#comment-212363 abb1 Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:45:21 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/#comment-212363 Why, <a href="http://www.bis.doc.gov/AntiboycottCompliance/oacrequirements.html" rel="nofollow">in the US, for example</a>, you can be fined of up to $50,000 and imprisonment for up to ten years for (among other things) <i>agreements to refuse or actual refusal to do business with or in Israel...</i> or even for <i>agreements to furnish or actual furnishing of information about business relationships with or in Israel</i>. IOW, if you ask a supermarket clerk whether homus you're buying is imported from Israel and he answers the question - he's spending up to the next 10 years in a federal penitentiary. Only in America, the land of the free and the home of the brave. Why, in the US, for example, you can be fined of up to $50,000 and imprisonment for up to ten years for (among other things) agreements to refuse or actual refusal to do business with or in Israel… or even for agreements to furnish or actual furnishing of information about business relationships with or in Israel.

IOW, if you ask a supermarket clerk whether homus you’re buying is imported from Israel and he answers the question – he’s spending up to the next 10 years in a federal penitentiary. Only in America, the land of the free and the home of the brave.

]]> By: ejh http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/comment-page-2/#comment-212361 ejh Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:25:33 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/#comment-212361 Well, it turns out that Bertram has made an absolute fool of himself in believing that Pike and ENGAGE actually wanted a membership debate on the proposal. As they're celebrating, it looks like what they actually wanted was that the membership not be allowed to discuss it at all. Anybody actually interesteed in democracy should deplore this sort of thing: unions deploying lawyers to precent issues even being <i>discussed</i>. I have a certain experience in this field: when I was an activist in CPSA years ago, the leadership used to do this all the time, bringing in lawyers to rule hundreds of motions to conference not only out of order but unfit to actually be printed. Yes, we couldn't even read motions that had been submitted to our policy-making body (and in CPSA, we couldn't even see the legal advice either). Why don't you know about this? Bluntly, because democracy is only considered to be an issue in the trade unions when it's a stick with which to beat the left. There's a lot of fake-democrats about. Well, it turns out that Bertram has made an absolute fool of himself in believing that Pike and ENGAGE actually wanted a membership debate on the proposal. As they’re celebrating, it looks like what they actually wanted was that the membership not be allowed to discuss it at all.

Anybody actually interesteed in democracy should deplore this sort of thing: unions deploying lawyers to precent issues even being discussed.

I have a certain experience in this field: when I was an activist in CPSA years ago, the leadership used to do this all the time, bringing in lawyers to rule hundreds of motions to conference not only out of order but unfit to actually be printed. Yes, we couldn’t even read motions that had been submitted to our policy-making body (and in CPSA, we couldn’t even see the legal advice either).

Why don’t you know about this? Bluntly, because democracy is only considered to be an issue in the trade unions when it’s a stick with which to beat the left.

There’s a lot of fake-democrats about.

]]> By: Branko Collin http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/comment-page-2/#comment-212353 Branko Collin Fri, 28 Sep 2007 18:00:17 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/#comment-212353 Er, how can a boycott be illegal? And how are they going to enforce this? Will scholars who refuse to cite at least one Israeli study in each of the papers they published be fined, fired or shot? Er, how can a boycott be illegal? And how are they going to enforce this? Will scholars who refuse to cite at least one Israeli study in each of the papers they published be fined, fired or shot?

]]> By: Chris Bertram http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/comment-page-2/#comment-212295 Chris Bertram Fri, 28 Sep 2007 14:55:36 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/#comment-212295 UPDATE: It turns out the whole question is moot, as the UCU has "acted":http://www.ucu.org.uk/index.cfm?articleid=2829 on advice that any boycott would be illegal. UPDATE: It turns out the whole question is moot, as the UCU has acted on advice that any boycott would be illegal.

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/comment-page-2/#comment-212272 abb1 Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:38:48 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/25/for-a-ballot-of-the-ucu-membership-on-the-academic-boycott-of-israel/#comment-212272 Nobody denies that this is a drastic measure on the part of the union. I don't think, though, that in moral terms it comes anywhere close to things like ethnic cleansing, military occupation of millions of people for 40 years and going, assassinations, torture, etc, etc, etc., yet some have no problem rationalizing most of these actions. Don't you thing justifying a little stealing has gotta be a piece of cake in comparison? Nobody denies that this is a drastic measure on the part of the union.

I don’t think, though, that in moral terms it comes anywhere close to things like ethnic cleansing, military occupation of millions of people for 40 years and going, assassinations, torture, etc, etc, etc., yet some have no problem rationalizing most of these actions. Don’t you thing justifying a little stealing has gotta be a piece of cake in comparison?

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