Comments on: All Power to the Second-Life Soviets! http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sun, 22 Nov 2009 01:04:21 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: BillCinSD http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/comment-page-2/#comment-212491 BillCinSD Mon, 01 Oct 2007 04:29:11 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/#comment-212491 Seems like the point is Communism, like conservatism, never fails it is only failed. But that's the nature of ideology. And Brett I didn't say the RNC had killed more than the communists, just tried to imply that that ideology has killed many people unncessarily to maintain power, just like the communists. It's funny now that most of the last USSR communists are now capitalists. Seems like the point is Communism, like conservatism, never fails it is only failed. But that’s the nature of ideology.

And Brett I didn’t say the RNC had killed more than the communists, just tried to imply that that ideology has killed many people unncessarily to maintain power, just like the communists. It’s funny now that most of the last USSR communists are now capitalists.

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/comment-page-2/#comment-212457 abb1 Sun, 30 Sep 2007 09:32:34 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/#comment-212457 Generally, any radical socio-economic change tends to cause a long period of turmoil and violence, this is not communist-states-specific. French Revolution, American Civil War, even decolonization in most places. That's just how it is, pardon my determinism. Generally, any radical socio-economic change tends to cause a long period of turmoil and violence, this is not communist-states-specific. French Revolution, American Civil War, even decolonization in most places. That’s just how it is, pardon my determinism.

]]> By: engels http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/comment-page-2/#comment-212450 engels Sun, 30 Sep 2007 04:24:46 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/#comment-212450 Looking at it afterwards, I think my last comment was unduly snarky and also a bit confused. I thought that you were having a go at anyone who claims that the horrors of Stalinism were a deviation from a socialist ideal, and calling such people apologists and loathsome, etc. I was trying to make the point that in a similar way someone (an old-fashioned Marxist maybe) could say similar things about anyone who said that the catastrophe in Iraq was a deviation from liberal or American principles. I don't agree with either of those views. Even though I am not a liberal, I do think that liberal capitalism can be better or worse depending on who is in charge and what they do, and I also think that liberal capitalists have some admirable ideals which they can fail to live up to. I think the same is true of socialism and even Soviet communism. Looking at it afterwards, I think my last comment was unduly snarky and also a bit confused.

I thought that you were having a go at anyone who claims that the horrors of Stalinism were a deviation from a socialist ideal, and calling such people apologists and loathsome, etc. I was trying to make the point that in a similar way someone (an old-fashioned Marxist maybe) could say similar things about anyone who said that the catastrophe in Iraq was a deviation from liberal or American principles.

I don’t agree with either of those views. Even though I am not a liberal, I do think that liberal capitalism can be better or worse depending on who is in charge and what they do, and I also think that liberal capitalists have some admirable ideals which they can fail to live up to. I think the same is true of socialism and even Soviet communism.

]]> By: DRR http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/comment-page-2/#comment-212449 DRR Sun, 30 Sep 2007 03:23:16 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/#comment-212449 I think you might have a point if I was an American liberal eager to defend America's foreign policy over the last 5 years; I'm not. Nor would I ever argue that America's foreign policy over the last 5 years is somehow a deviation from a righteous, relatively stainless past. Foreign actions undertaken by Imperial states are almost always dumb and cruel. Also I think communist states are pretty brutal and intellectual apologetics on behalf of the body counts to be pretty weak. I think you might have a point if I was an American liberal eager to defend America’s foreign policy over the last 5 years; I’m not. Nor would I ever argue that America’s foreign policy over the last 5 years is somehow a deviation from a righteous, relatively stainless past. Foreign actions undertaken by Imperial states are almost always dumb and cruel.

Also I think communist states are pretty brutal and intellectual apologetics on behalf of the body counts to be pretty weak.

]]> By: engels http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/comment-page-2/#comment-212434 engels Sat, 29 Sep 2007 15:12:25 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/#comment-212434 <i>I’ve always found the rationalizations and apologetics for the seemingly inevitable brutality of <strike>any strain of actual existing communism</strike> American foreign policy over the last five years by <strike>the leftover left</strike> liberals as “deviations” or perversions of <strike>the true faith</strike> American ideals, to be pretty weak intellectually and loathsome morally.</i> Good to see vulgar historical determinism is alive and well! I’ve always found the rationalizations and apologetics for the seemingly inevitable brutality of any strain of actual existing communism American foreign policy over the last five years by the leftover left liberals as “deviations” or perversions of the true faith American ideals, to be pretty weak intellectually and loathsome morally.

Good to see vulgar historical determinism is alive and well!

]]> By: DRR http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/comment-page-2/#comment-212433 DRR Sat, 29 Sep 2007 14:35:05 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/#comment-212433 I don't have a stake in this. I think Naziism is much worse than Communis, which isn't explicitly bad, but I've always found the rationalizations and apologetics for the seemingly inevitable brutality of any strain of actual existing communism by the leftover left as "deviations" or perversions of the true faith, to be pretty weak intellectually and loathsome morally. But as it relates to individual Communists and Nazis, a person who some times writes for this very blog said something very useful once. My html skills are even worse than my grammar, but if you click on his name above, which is linked by crookedtimber.org to his personal weblog and type the word 'nazi' in the search box, you should come across an entry titled "Have you stopped murdering your political opponents?" with the good stuff. I don’t have a stake in this. I think Naziism is much worse than Communis, which isn’t explicitly bad, but I’ve always found the rationalizations and apologetics for the seemingly inevitable brutality of any strain of actual existing communism by the leftover left as “deviations” or perversions of the true faith, to be pretty weak intellectually and loathsome morally. But as it relates to individual Communists and Nazis, a person who some times writes for this very blog said something very useful once. My html skills are even worse than my grammar, but if you click on his name above, which is linked by crookedtimber.org to his personal weblog and type the word ‘nazi’ in the search box, you should come across an entry titled “Have you stopped murdering your political opponents?” with the good stuff.

]]> By: Scott McLemee http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/comment-page-2/#comment-212401 Scott McLemee Sat, 29 Sep 2007 01:26:34 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/#comment-212401 <em>Without capitalism there isn’t sufficient economic productivity for the masses to be anything BUT wretchedly poor.</em> What a very Marxist formulation, actually, at least as far as it goes. Without capitalism there isn’t sufficient economic productivity for the masses to be anything BUT wretchedly poor.

What a very Marxist formulation, actually, at least as far as it goes.

]]> By: Doctor Slack http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/comment-page-2/#comment-212393 Doctor Slack Fri, 28 Sep 2007 23:31:55 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/#comment-212393 Ach! My snarky use of strikethrough backfires! Why did it show up on preview but not in the post? Must be the fucking communists. Ach! My snarky use of strikethrough backfires! Why did it show up on preview but not in the post? Must be the fucking communists.

]]> By: Doctor Slack http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/comment-page-2/#comment-212392 Doctor Slack Fri, 28 Sep 2007 23:31:02 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/#comment-212392 <i>Anybody who thinks capitalism didn’t lift the masses out of wretched poverty</i> was solely responsible for lifting the masses out of poverty and doesn't have a chequered history of its own <i>of course. </i> There, fixed that for you. Anybody who thinks capitalism didn’t lift the masses out of wretched poverty was solely responsible for lifting the masses out of poverty and doesn’t have a chequered history of its own of course.

There, fixed that for you.

]]> By: Brett Bellmore http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/comment-page-2/#comment-212390 Brett Bellmore Fri, 28 Sep 2007 23:23:38 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/#comment-212390 <i>"Yeah, now who’s romanticizing?"</i> Anybody who thinks capitalism didn't lift the masses out of wretched poverty, of course. Without capitalism there isn't sufficient economic productivity for the masses to be anything BUT wretchedly poor. “Yeah, now who’s romanticizing?”

Anybody who thinks capitalism didn’t lift the masses out of wretched poverty, of course. Without capitalism there isn’t sufficient economic productivity for the masses to be anything BUT wretchedly poor.

]]> By: Anderson http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/comment-page-2/#comment-212381 Anderson Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:54:01 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/#comment-212381 <i>the difference between a monstrous ideology (Nazism) and one capable of a monstrous interpretation (Communism)</i> I'm not really sure I want to challenge any neo-Nazis to *interpret* Nazism differently. "Genocide was going too far, of course, and we deplore it, but [quote <i>The Bell Curve</i> here], and thus biological nationalism is actually a valid theory," etc., etc. ..." the difference between a monstrous ideology (Nazism) and one capable of a monstrous interpretation (Communism)

I’m not really sure I want to challenge any neo-Nazis to interpret Nazism differently. “Genocide was going too far, of course, and we deplore it, but [quote The Bell Curve here], and thus biological nationalism is actually a valid theory,” etc., etc. …”

]]> By: Doctor Slack http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/comment-page-2/#comment-212346 Doctor Slack Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:35:12 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/#comment-212346 <i>The mass murdering ideology is a reaction to the economic system that lifted the masses out of wretched poverty</i> Yeah, now who's romanticizing? The mass murdering ideology is a reaction to the economic system that lifted the masses out of wretched poverty

Yeah, now who’s romanticizing?

]]> By: dadanarchist http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/comment-page-2/#comment-212334 dadanarchist Fri, 28 Sep 2007 16:52:34 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/#comment-212334 "No, they’re a result of the fact that communism is not a system for humans, who are not hive organisms. The failure on the part of those who think well of communism to recognize this, no matter how many times their noses are rubbed in it, is what makes this rosy colored view of the deadliest totalitarian ideology of the 20th century so dangerous: Give you power, and you’ll try it yet again!" So on those same grounds, I expect a full-throated defense of capitalism, in both its liberal and illiberal forms. “No, they’re a result of the fact that communism is not a system for humans, who are not hive organisms. The failure on the part of those who think well of communism to recognize this, no matter how many times their noses are rubbed in it, is what makes this rosy colored view of the deadliest totalitarian ideology of the 20th century so dangerous: Give you power, and you’ll try it yet again!”

So on those same grounds, I expect a full-throated defense of capitalism, in both its liberal and illiberal forms.

]]> By: Bryan http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/comment-page-2/#comment-212306 Bryan Fri, 28 Sep 2007 15:20:06 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/#comment-212306 My Russian history professor was born and raised in the USSR, and grew up disgusted and cynical with the regime and its official ideology. His father only escaped certain death in the Great Terror when the man that was set to denounce him got denounced first. He read Robert Conquest's book <i>The Great Terror</i> in samizdat under the covers with a flashlight while he was in college in the early 1980s, and is a big fan of Leszek Kolakowski's <i>Main Currents of Marxism</i>. The officials once tried to recruit him to report on his classmates, and he was certainly aware that some of his classmates were spies themselves. He is definitely not a Marxist, and I'm pretty sure he isn't a devotee of Lacanian psychoanalysis. Nonetheless, he always insisted on drawing a distinction between the evil of the Nazis, and the crimes of the Communists. The difference in his mind, I think, was the difference between a monstrous ideology (Nazism) and one capable of a monstrous interpretation (Communism). (I am stealing that line from somewhere, I just can't remember where). And I think one point Zizek raised is legitimate—that is the persistence of dissident Communists, compared to the lack and, indeed, inconceivability of dissident Nazis. My Russian history professor was born and raised in the USSR, and grew up disgusted and cynical with the regime and its official ideology. His father only escaped certain death in the Great Terror when the man that was set to denounce him got denounced first. He read Robert Conquest’s book The Great Terror in samizdat under the covers with a flashlight while he was in college in the early 1980s, and is a big fan of Leszek Kolakowski’s Main Currents of Marxism. The officials once tried to recruit him to report on his classmates, and he was certainly aware that some of his classmates were spies themselves. He is definitely not a Marxist, and I’m pretty sure he isn’t a devotee of Lacanian psychoanalysis.

Nonetheless, he always insisted on drawing a distinction between the evil of the Nazis, and the crimes of the Communists. The difference in his mind, I think, was the difference between a monstrous ideology (Nazism) and one capable of a monstrous interpretation (Communism). (I am stealing that line from somewhere, I just can’t remember where). And I think one point Zizek raised is legitimate—that is the persistence of dissident Communists, compared to the lack and, indeed, inconceivability of dissident Nazis.

]]> By: Matthias http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/comment-page-2/#comment-212281 Matthias Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:42:15 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/26/all-power-to-the-second-life-soviets/#comment-212281 Brett, why are vanguardist dictatorships the only "serious" attempts at establishing socialism? Brett, why are vanguardist dictatorships the only “serious” attempts at establishing socialism?

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