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	<title>Comments on: The Googlization of Everything</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Vad är Google? at Det perfekta tomrummet</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-213072</link>
		<dc:creator>Vad är Google? at Det perfekta tomrummet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Oct 2007 10:33:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/#comment-213072</guid>
		<description>[...] [via Crooked Timber.] [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] [via Crooked Timber.] [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Martin GL</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-212952</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin GL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 11:24:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/#comment-212952</guid>
		<description>26: I find that most of the time, the Wikipedia search engine is too slow, so I use Google to search Wikipedia by typing in [thing I&#039;m looking for] wikipedia. It&#039;s almost always faster for me, but YMMV. So Google has become an integral part of my use of Wikipedia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>26: I find that most of the time, the Wikipedia search engine is too slow, so I use Google to search Wikipedia by typing in [thing I&#8217;m looking for] wikipedia. It&#8217;s almost always faster for me, but <span class="caps">YMMV</span>. So Google has become an integral part of my use of Wikipedia.</p>
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		<title>By: Quo Vadis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-212724</link>
		<dc:creator>Quo Vadis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 18:05:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/#comment-212724</guid>
		<description>Siva,

I had occasion to do a lot of research for a business degree after having been out of school for 15 years and in the process I arrived at some interesting realizations about search engines and information.

I found that the sources I was using were very different than those I would have used 15 years ago.  Before I would have searched for information by the context in which it was originally published.  I would have gathered books, papers, studies etc relevant to my topic, and extracted the information I needed from them.  Using search engines I wound up with a lot of documents on topics completely unrelated to the subject I was researching and I would use only small parts of those documents.  

I realized that search engines like Google, and to a certain extent others like ProQuest, and Lexis-Nexis are completely changing the way information is organized and consumed.  They take information out of the context intended by the authors and create an entirely new ad-hock context based upon the engine’s indexing algorithm and the search criteria specified.  In essence, every search result is an entirely new machine-generated document composed fragments of many unrelated documents in which the context of the source documents was irrelevant.  

I suspect that there was a really interesting and useful research project in that somewhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Siva,</p>

	<p>I had occasion to do a lot of research for a business degree after having been out of school for 15 years and in the process I arrived at some interesting realizations about search engines and information.</p>

	<p>I found that the sources I was using were very different than those I would have used 15 years ago.  Before I would have searched for information by the context in which it was originally published.  I would have gathered books, papers, studies etc relevant to my topic, and extracted the information I needed from them.  Using search engines I wound up with a lot of documents on topics completely unrelated to the subject I was researching and I would use only small parts of those documents.</p>

	<p>I realized that search engines like Google, and to a certain extent others like ProQuest, and Lexis-Nexis are completely changing the way information is organized and consumed.  They take information out of the context intended by the authors and create an entirely new ad-hock context based upon the engine&#8217;s indexing algorithm and the search criteria specified.  In essence, every search result is an entirely new machine-generated document composed fragments of many unrelated documents in which the context of the source documents was irrelevant.</p>

	<p>I suspect that there was a really interesting and useful research project in that somewhere.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Finkelstein</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-212715</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Finkelstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 17:28:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/#comment-212715</guid>
		<description>John / #27 - There&#039;s a problem with equivalencing the smallest benefit (&quot;give a marginal boost&quot;), with a startup (Wikia) with valuation at tens of millions of dollars. There is an underlying reality, in the sense that the WWW development was unwritten by an institution, and big Open Source projects typically have corporate funding somewhere. So the point should not be to fuzz over the loss-leader aspect of Wikipedia with obsfucatory rhetoric, but rather that again, there&#039;s been no magic solution to solving the problem of supporting art or research.
(and to vaguely connect this to Siva&#039;s book, Google&#039;s devil&#039;s bargain with advertising can be viewed in this manner).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>John / #27 &#8211; There&#8217;s a problem with equivalencing the smallest benefit (&#8220;give a marginal boost&#8221;), with a startup (Wikia) with valuation at tens of millions of dollars. There is an underlying reality, in the sense that the <span class="caps">WWW</span> development was unwritten by an institution, and big Open Source projects typically have corporate funding somewhere. So the point should not be to fuzz over the loss-leader aspect of Wikipedia with obsfucatory rhetoric, but rather that again, there&#8217;s been no magic solution to solving the problem of supporting art or research.<br />
(and to vaguely connect this to Siva&#8217;s book, Google&#8217;s devil&#8217;s bargain with advertising can be viewed in this manner).</p>
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		<title>By: Vee</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-212692</link>
		<dc:creator>Vee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 15:21:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/#comment-212692</guid>
		<description>Google has a fair market share but not yet..the universe.  They are catching up though, happen to use them quite frequently.

They could become the &quot;Rupert Murdoch&quot;  in the  atmosphere of the Search Engines. Yahoo and the rest unfortunately are way..way...........behind.
www.vernasmith.blogspot.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Google has a fair market share but not yet..the universe.  They are catching up though, happen to use them quite frequently.</p>

	<p>They could become the &#8220;Rupert Murdoch&#8221;  in the  atmosphere of the Search Engines. Yahoo and the rest unfortunately are way..way&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..behind.<br />
<a href="http://www.vernasmith.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.vernasmith.blogspot.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Pete</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-212675</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 11:38:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/#comment-212675</guid>
		<description>People are slowly shifting their stuff to Google, of which Gmail is the most worrying (for me). Mind you, they also put a lot of their lives on facebook, etc.

Google offers massive convenience. That&#039;s why they&#039;re winning. I&#039;d like to see a public-service search engine, and public-service &quot;store your data on the Internet and access it with handy web services&quot; system, but I have no idea how they could be built. The public sector has almost no IT competence or understanding. A university might be able to do it, but I have no idea how they would fund it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>People are slowly shifting their stuff to Google, of which Gmail is the most worrying (for me). Mind you, they also put a lot of their lives on facebook, etc.</p>

	<p>Google offers massive convenience. That&#8217;s why they&#8217;re winning. I&#8217;d like to see a public-service search engine, and public-service &#8220;store your data on the Internet and access it with handy web services&#8221; system, but I have no idea how they could be built. The public sector has almost no IT competence or understanding. A university might be able to do it, but I have no idea how they would fund it.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-212671</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 10:01:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/#comment-212671</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.google.ch/search?num=100&amp;hl=en&amp;q=%22linux+sucks%22+&amp;btnG=Search&amp;meta=&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Linux sucks&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.google.ch/search?num=100&amp;hl=en&amp;q=%22wikipedia+sucks%22+&amp;btnG=Search&amp;meta=&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Wikipedia sucks&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><a href="http://www.google.ch/search?num=100&#038;hl=en&#038;q=%22linux+sucks%22+&#038;btnG=Search&#038;meta=" rel="nofollow">Linux sucks</a></p>

	<p><a href="http://www.google.ch/search?num=100&#038;hl=en&#038;q=%22wikipedia+sucks%22+&#038;btnG=Search&#038;meta=" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia sucks</a></p>
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		<title>By: bi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-212670</link>
		<dc:creator>bi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 09:00:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/#comment-212670</guid>
		<description>John Quiggin:

But, you see, Linux doesn&#039;t suck. :-) And while Tim Berners-Lee&#039;s WWW does suck, but at least he can have some excuses for that. :-) :-) (E.g. it doesn&#039;t suck in ways in which he has control over.)

And Wikipedia does sucks, and Jimbo is actively contributing to the suckage -- by promoting Essjay to Arbitrator, for example.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>John Quiggin:</p>

	<p>But, you see, Linux doesn&#8217;t suck. :-) And while Tim Berners-Lee&#8217;s <span class="caps">WWW</span> does suck, but at least he can have some excuses for that. :-) :-) (E.g. it doesn&#8217;t suck in ways in which he has control over.)</p>

	<p>And Wikipedia does sucks, and Jimbo is actively contributing to the suckage&#8212;by promoting Essjay to Arbitrator, for example.</p>
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		<title>By: bi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-212669</link>
		<dc:creator>bi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 08:48:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/#comment-212669</guid>
		<description>&quot;Google is not burying information about her or her relationship to Scientology.&quot;

But it _was_ very definitely burying information, as the letter clearly indicates. We know this for a fact.

That in itself is quite worrying already.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Google is not burying information about her or her relationship to Scientology.&#8221;</p>

	<p>But it <em>was</em> very definitely burying information, as the letter clearly indicates. We know this for a fact.</p>

	<p>That in itself is quite worrying already.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-212668</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 08:23:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/#comment-212668</guid>
		<description>&#039;Loss-leader&#039; sounds like an interesting angle, elegant explanation. As JQ @27 suggests, pretty much anything OpenSource is a loss-leader in this sense: people develop free software products to improve their resumes, to be able to offer commercial support of these products and so on. Thank God for that.

So, is anything wrong with taking advantage of a loss-leader?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8216;Loss-leader&#8217; sounds like an interesting angle, elegant explanation. As <span class="caps">JQ </span>@27 suggests, pretty much anything OpenSource is a loss-leader in this sense: people develop free software products to improve their resumes, to be able to offer commercial support of these products and so on. Thank God for that.</p>

	<p>So, is anything wrong with taking advantage of a loss-leader?</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-212667</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 07:34:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/#comment-212667</guid>
		<description>Seth, I can&#039;t say I see a lot of difference between Wikipedia as a loss leader for Wikia and the Web as a loss leader for Tim Berners-Lee&#039;s job at W3C or Linux for Linus Torvald and Linux International. Organisationally, these are nonprofits, but so what. Everyone who ever contributed to the Web/Linux/Wikipedia has give a marginal boost to the career/earnings prospects of Tim/Linus/Jimmy, as well as doing whatever they aimed at.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Seth, I can&#8217;t say I see a lot of difference between Wikipedia as a loss leader for Wikia and the Web as a loss leader for Tim Berners-Lee&#8217;s job at <span class="caps">W3C</span> or Linux for Linus Torvald and Linux International. Organisationally, these are nonprofits, but so what. Everyone who ever contributed to the Web/Linux/Wikipedia has give a marginal boost to the career/earnings prospects of Tim/Linus/Jimmy, as well as doing whatever they aimed at.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-212664</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 04:27:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/#comment-212664</guid>
		<description>Siva, I am, if anything moving away from the Google universe. I use Google a fair bit, but not as heavily as a few years back, since
(i) For blogs, Technorati and others are as good or better
(ii) The Web is more stable, so I spend a lot of time visiting sites in my bookmark/blogroll list
(iii) Wikipedia has the answer to most questions

I have a Gmail account, and use some of the other Google services, but that doesn&#039;t amount to participation in a Google universe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Siva, I am, if anything moving away from the Google universe. I use Google a fair bit, but not as heavily as a few years back, since<br />
(i) For blogs, Technorati and others are as good or better<br />
(ii) The Web is more stable, so I spend a lot of time visiting sites in my bookmark/blogroll list<br />
(iii) Wikipedia has the answer to most questions</p>

	<p>I have a Gmail account, and use some of the other Google services, but that doesn&#8217;t amount to participation in a Google universe.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Finkelstein</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-212644</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Finkelstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2007 19:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/#comment-212644</guid>
		<description>Siva: Sadly, lots of this has been hashed out in the undergrowth by the &quot;frustrated human rights and privacy advocates.&quot;. Nobody listens to us :-(.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Siva: Sadly, lots of this has been hashed out in the undergrowth by the &#8220;frustrated human rights and privacy advocates.&#8221;. Nobody listens to us :-(.</p>
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		<title>By: joel turnipseed</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-212640</link>
		<dc:creator>joel turnipseed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2007 19:02:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/#comment-212640</guid>
		<description>Except, bi, if you search for &quot;lisa mcpherson&quot; you get page after page of information about her. So: Google is not burying information about her or her relationship to Scientology.

It&#039;s certainly &lt;em&gt;possible&lt;/em&gt; that Google is burying things in the U.S.--and, as we know from their deal with China--could do more. That&#039;s a big danger... but right now I think it&#039;s a &lt;em&gt;future&lt;/em&gt; danger. But that&#039;s all... I think: don&#039;t know.

I &lt;em&gt;know&lt;/em&gt; that the ubiquity of free content and the changing ad models are &lt;em&gt;killing&lt;/em&gt; a lot of newspapers (though again, Craigslist is as big a &quot;villain&quot;). But even there: do we really need thousands of newspapers in this country? Or twelve really amazing ones? I&#039;d like to say the former, if only because you need a very large pool of journalists--a culture of journalism--to sustain excellent newspapers. OTOH, booksellers are doing pretty well, all things considered, so there&#039;s still something, as I said above, to &quot;the artifact&quot; &amp; that may extend to newspapers.

To Siva&#039;s point: I think Google was a beneficiary of &lt;em&gt;other&lt;/em&gt; developments--and is only one driver among many in these changes... changes that are, truly, mind-bending &amp; frustrating. But they&#039;re here--and will be here even if Google stumbles &amp; is replaced by someone else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Except, bi, if you search for &#8220;lisa mcpherson&#8221; you get page after page of information about her. So: Google is not burying information about her or her relationship to Scientology.</p>

	<p>It&#8217;s certainly <em>possible</em> that Google is burying things in the U.S.&#8212;and, as we know from their deal with China&#8212;could do more. That&#8217;s a big danger&#8230; but right now I think it&#8217;s a <em>future</em> danger. But that&#8217;s all&#8230; I think: don&#8217;t know.</p>

	<p>I <em>know</em> that the ubiquity of free content and the changing ad models are <em>killing</em> a lot of newspapers (though again, Craigslist is as big a &#8220;villain&#8221;). But even there: do we really need thousands of newspapers in this country? Or twelve really amazing ones? I&#8217;d like to say the former, if only because you need a very large pool of journalists&#8212;a culture of journalism&#8212;to sustain excellent newspapers. <span class="caps">OTOH</span>, booksellers are doing pretty well, all things considered, so there&#8217;s still something, as I said above, to &#8220;the artifact&#8221; &#038; that may extend to newspapers.</p>

	<p>To Siva&#8217;s point: I think Google was a beneficiary of <em>other</em> developments&#8212;and is only one driver among many in these changes&#8230; changes that are, truly, mind-bending &#038; frustrating. But they&#8217;re here&#8212;and will be here even if Google stumbles &#038; is replaced by someone else.</p>
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		<title>By: bi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-212638</link>
		<dc:creator>bi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2007 18:34:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/01/the-googlization-of-everything/#comment-212638</guid>
		<description>&quot;1) Has anyone ever demonstrated that much, if anything, gets buried by Google? If so, what?&quot;

Maybe &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.xenu.net/news/20020320-google.txt&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; counts?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;1) Has anyone ever demonstrated that much, if anything, gets buried by Google? If so, what?&#8221;</p>

	<p>Maybe <a href="http://www.xenu.net/news/20020320-google.txt" rel="nofollow">this</a> counts?</p>
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