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	<title>Comments on: Halting State and Cowboy Angels</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 21:53:32 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Valuethinker</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/comment-page-1/#comment-212878</link>
		<dc:creator>Valuethinker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 17:43:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/#comment-212878</guid>
		<description>The alternate history crowd tends to be right to very right wing.  Steve Stirling anyone?  Or &#039;Watch on the Rhine&#039;?  If you encounter them on the net, you certainly find that.

I would guess there is a nexus of &#039;right wing&#039; publishers and readers around David Drake (although I like his classical allusions, almost ripoffs to forgive him and I devour most of what he writes), Steve Stirling, Janet Morris, Jerry Pournelle, Larry Niven etc.  (Janet Morris was an adviser to Newt Gingrich). 

I guess Harry Turtledove is more of a Truman-style Democrat?  Someone told me Eric Flint (Belisarius novels, also 1631/1632) is a real labour-leftist, but I don&#039;t know.

The genre has some sublime books: my lasting interest in Byzantium comes from L. Sprague de Camp&#039;s &#039;Lest Darkness Fall&#039;.  Drake and Flint have picked up Belisarius again, but no one can match de Camp for humour and a deft touch (the same is true of his fantasy novels).

And there is &#039;The Man in the High Castle&#039; by PK Dick, and &#039;The Iron Dream&#039; by Norman Spinrad.  I think Algys Budrys did one too-- about a US under German and Japanese occupation?

Stross.  I liked Singularity Sky not so much, and Iron Sunrise very much, in the sense it was an almost EE Doc Smith &#039;I cannot put this down&#039; read.  He even makes truly creepy space Nazis.  (you know it&#039;s space opera, when you have space Nazis).  He&#039;s a good society-builder too.

Stylistically he needs work.  Too much explication.  Characters not all believable or even rounded.  I&#039;ll get to Accelerando.  His ability to seque from humour to horror and back again is quite special.

I think the concept behind Atrocity Archives/ Jennifer Morgue (ironic spy, trapped in bureaucracy, fighting Cthulu?) is so brilliant that I&#039;ll stick with it, through and thin.

Stross I think may get better.  He has had an incredible burst of productivity (something like 7 books in 4 years?) and his style needs polishing.  Almost too many ideas, and too little development of the implications.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The alternate history crowd tends to be right to very right wing.  Steve Stirling anyone?  Or &#8216;Watch on the Rhine&#8217;?  If you encounter them on the net, you certainly find that.</p>

	<p>I would guess there is a nexus of &#8216;right wing&#8217; publishers and readers around David Drake (although I like his classical allusions, almost ripoffs to forgive him and I devour most of what he writes), Steve Stirling, Janet Morris, Jerry Pournelle, Larry Niven etc.  (Janet Morris was an adviser to Newt Gingrich).</p>

	<p>I guess Harry Turtledove is more of a Truman-style Democrat?  Someone told me Eric Flint (Belisarius novels, also 1631/1632) is a real labour-leftist, but I don&#8217;t know.</p>

	<p>The genre has some sublime books: my lasting interest in Byzantium comes from L. Sprague de Camp&#8217;s &#8216;Lest Darkness Fall&#8217;.  Drake and Flint have picked up Belisarius again, but no one can match de Camp for humour and a deft touch (the same is true of his fantasy novels).</p>

	<p>And there is &#8216;The Man in the High Castle&#8217; by <span class="caps">PK </span>Dick, and &#8216;The Iron Dream&#8217; by Norman Spinrad.  I think Algys Budrys did one too&#8212;about a US under German and Japanese occupation?</p>

	<p>Stross.  I liked Singularity Sky not so much, and Iron Sunrise very much, in the sense it was an almost <span class="caps">EE </span>Doc Smith &#8216;I cannot put this down&#8217; read.  He even makes truly creepy space Nazis.  (you know it&#8217;s space opera, when you have space Nazis).  He&#8217;s a good society-builder too.</p>

	<p>Stylistically he needs work.  Too much explication.  Characters not all believable or even rounded.  I&#8217;ll get to Accelerando.  His ability to seque from humour to horror and back again is quite special.</p>

	<p>I think the concept behind Atrocity Archives/ Jennifer Morgue (ironic spy, trapped in bureaucracy, fighting Cthulu?) is so brilliant that I&#8217;ll stick with it, through and thin.</p>

	<p>Stross I think may get better.  He has had an incredible burst of productivity (something like 7 books in 4 years?) and his style needs polishing.  Almost too many ideas, and too little development of the implications.</p>
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		<title>By: ajay</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/comment-page-1/#comment-212821</link>
		<dc:creator>ajay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 10:07:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/#comment-212821</guid>
		<description>13: I did actually know that - should have made it clear in my first comment. Didn&#039;t know it about the Foundation series, though. I think Accelerando suffers from having the (apparently imposed) continuity of the same characters throughout; it would be much better as a set of unconnected short stories. 

18: I am so, so not rising to that one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>13: I did actually know that &#8211; should have made it clear in my first comment. Didn&#8217;t know it about the Foundation series, though. I think Accelerando suffers from having the (apparently imposed) continuity of the same characters throughout; it would be much better as a set of unconnected short stories.</p>

	<p>18: I am so, so not rising to that one.</p>
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		<title>By: Carlos</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/comment-page-1/#comment-212780</link>
		<dc:creator>Carlos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 21:53:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/#comment-212780</guid>
		<description>Hi Henry,

Actually -- and as I know Dan Goodman knows -- there&#039;s a rather tight cluster of jingo authors and wannabes within the alternate history genre who fit your description rather well. Most are Republican-Glibertarian, but there&#039;s a Lieberman Democrat and a bellicose Trot in there too. They&#039;ve made an active effort to drive away alternate history readers who disagree with them ideologically. (Although one has pandered to the Wicca and SCA sets in order to make up the difference.) If you follow Charlie&#039;s blog, they&#039;re some of the more barking mad commenters.

Wish I could agree with you more about Charlie&#039;s stuff. I like Charlie, and he&#039;s a fun guy online, but if this were the 1980s, he&#039;d be somewhere between Barrington Bayley and Crawford Kilian.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hi Henry,</p>

	<p>Actually&#8212;and as I know Dan Goodman knows&#8212;there&#8217;s a rather tight cluster of jingo authors and wannabes within the alternate history genre who fit your description rather well. Most are Republican-Glibertarian, but there&#8217;s a Lieberman Democrat and a bellicose Trot in there too. They&#8217;ve made an active effort to drive away alternate history readers who disagree with them ideologically. (Although one has pandered to the Wicca and <span class="caps">SCA</span> sets in order to make up the difference.) If you follow Charlie&#8217;s blog, they&#8217;re some of the more barking mad commenters.</p>

	<p>Wish I could agree with you more about Charlie&#8217;s stuff. I like Charlie, and he&#8217;s a fun guy online, but if this were the 1980s, he&#8217;d be somewhere between Barrington Bayley and Crawford Kilian.</p>
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		<title>By: Demosthenes</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/comment-page-1/#comment-212754</link>
		<dc:creator>Demosthenes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 20:30:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/#comment-212754</guid>
		<description>Are you implying, ajay, that there are poor unfortunate souls who aren&#039;t fans of China Mieville&#039;s work? 

Poor, poor devils. 

(I would say the same of those who are so hostile to well-executed space opera to discount the Iron Sunrise/Singularity Sky books, but I&#039;m a polite fellow. Especially to my host.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Are you implying, ajay, that there are poor unfortunate souls who aren&#8217;t fans of China Mieville&#8217;s work?</p>

	<p>Poor, poor devils.</p>

	<p>(I would say the same of those who are so hostile to well-executed space opera to discount the Iron Sunrise/Singularity Sky books, but I&#8217;m a polite fellow. Especially to my host.)</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/comment-page-1/#comment-212744</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 19:57:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/#comment-212744</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;As for the others, Accelerando is very impressive, but I couldn’t entirely warm to it – I found that I was reading it more for the infodumps than the plot development. I prefer his “Merchant Princes” series which has less bells and whistles, but does a better job in my opinion of combining plotline with sociological speculation. &lt;/i&gt;

So you did, Henry, when I searched for it.  So I retract my previous comment about &quot;no love&quot;.  I am looking forward to the new one coming out at the end of this month.  I don&#039;t buy too many novels in HC (too expensive).  The Merchant Princes are among those few that I do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>As for the others, Accelerando is very impressive, but I couldn&#8217;t entirely warm to it &#8211; I found that I was reading it more for the infodumps than the plot development. I prefer his &#8220;Merchant Princes&#8221; series which has less bells and whistles, but does a better job in my opinion of combining plotline with sociological speculation. </i></p>

	<p>So you did, Henry, when I searched for it.  So I retract my previous comment about &#8220;no love&#8221;.  I am looking forward to the new one coming out at the end of this month.  I don&#8217;t buy too many novels in <span class="caps">HC </span>(too expensive).  The Merchant Princes are among those few that I do.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/comment-page-1/#comment-212721</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 17:54:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/#comment-212721</guid>
		<description>I think I _have_ given some love to the Merchant Princes books in a previous post - and exactly b/c of their interest in economics and development. They&#039;re the best thing of their kind since _A Connecticut Yankee_ - smart, interesting, and highly entertaining.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think I <em>have</em> given some love to the Merchant Princes books in a previous post &#8211; and exactly b/c of their interest in economics and development. They&#8217;re the best thing of their kind since <em>A Connecticut Yankee</em> &#8211; smart, interesting, and highly entertaining.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/comment-page-1/#comment-212720</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 17:46:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/#comment-212720</guid>
		<description>You know, I liked &quot;A Colder War&quot; more than the &quot;Laundry&quot; books: the Lovecraftian Horror has rather more of a punch, with the Laundry books striking me as more comic-bookish and often too far from Lovecraftian canon in ways that sort of suck the tension out of it for me - I mean, the UK&#039;s close circuit television spy camera setup as an Old One bug-zapper using &quot;petrification-vision&quot; or whatever it was?

Still pretty good, though...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>You know, I liked &#8220;A Colder War&#8221; more than the &#8220;Laundry&#8221; books: the Lovecraftian Horror has rather more of a punch, with the Laundry books striking me as more comic-bookish and often too far from Lovecraftian canon in ways that sort of suck the tension out of it for me &#8211; I mean, the UK&#8217;s close circuit television spy camera setup as an Old One bug-zapper using &#8220;petrification-vision&#8221; or whatever it was?</p>

	<p>Still pretty good, though&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/comment-page-1/#comment-212713</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 17:18:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/#comment-212713</guid>
		<description>&quot;neil – yep – it’s not his best. If you want to try-before-you-buy, read A Colder War to experience some vintage Stross.&quot;

Posted by Henry

A Colder War is great; the best of his horror/SF/fantasy mixture to date.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;neil &#8211; yep &#8211; it&#8217;s not his best. If you want to try-before-you-buy, read A Colder War to experience some vintage Stross.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Posted by Henry</p>

	<p>A Colder War is great; the best of his horror/SF/fantasy mixture to date.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil Armstrong</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/comment-page-1/#comment-212694</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Armstrong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 15:42:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/#comment-212694</guid>
		<description>ajay@10: Accelerando &lt;strong&gt;was&lt;/strong&gt; a collection of short stories, originally published in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.asimovs.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Asimov&#039;s Science Fiction&lt;/a&gt;, just as Asimov&#039;s original Foundation novel was published in &quot;Astounding Magazine&quot; as a series of shorts.

But maybe you already knew that...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>ajay@10: Accelerando <strong>was</strong> a collection of short stories, originally published in <a href="http://www.asimovs.com/" rel="nofollow">Asimov&#8217;s Science Fiction</a>, just as Asimov&#8217;s original Foundation novel was published in &#8220;Astounding Magazine&#8221; as a series of shorts.</p>

	<p>But maybe you already knew that&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/comment-page-1/#comment-212689</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 14:44:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/#comment-212689</guid>
		<description>I follow his blog.

Stross&#039; success seems to be that he simply just up and does it. Every day.  

And no one has given any love to his &quot;Merchant Princes&quot; novels, which are science fiction with alternate histories and a strong grounding in, of all things, economics.  

That is what introduced me to Stross, and I still need to catch up on his full oeuvre.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I follow his blog.</p>

	<p>Stross&#8217; success seems to be that he simply just up and does it. Every day.</p>

	<p>And no one has given any love to his &#8220;Merchant Princes&#8221; novels, which are science fiction with alternate histories and a strong grounding in, of all things, economics.</p>

	<p>That is what introduced me to Stross, and I still need to catch up on his full oeuvre.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Gardner</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/comment-page-1/#comment-212684</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Gardner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 14:25:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/#comment-212684</guid>
		<description>I am in the middle of &lt;em&gt;Halting State&lt;/em&gt;, and greatly enjoying it. I also recommend Vinge&#039;s &lt;em&gt;Rainbows End&lt;/em&gt;, which also concerns how &quot;distributed forms of collective action are likely to collide with more traditional kinds of state-based politics&quot;.

BTW, I agree with the criticism of &lt;em&gt;Iron Sunrise&lt;/em&gt;, but I would like to find out what happens to the Eschaton.

And I would &lt;em&gt;really&lt;/em&gt; like to know how Stross writes so much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I am in the middle of <em>Halting State</em>, and greatly enjoying it. I also recommend Vinge&#8217;s <em>Rainbows End</em>, which also concerns how &#8220;distributed forms of collective action are likely to collide with more traditional kinds of state-based politics&#8221;.</p>

	<p><span class="caps">BTW</span>, I agree with the criticism of <em>Iron Sunrise</em>, but I would like to find out what happens to the Eschaton.</p>

	<p>And I would <em>really</em> like to know how Stross writes so much.</p>
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		<title>By: ajay</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/comment-page-1/#comment-212682</link>
		<dc:creator>ajay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 14:16:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/#comment-212682</guid>
		<description>Agree with 9. The Eschaton books - &quot;Singularity Sky&quot; and &quot;Iron Sunrise&quot; - aren&#039;t great, although fans of China Mieville would probably take to them. The Laundry books - &quot;The Atrocity Archive&quot;, &quot;The Concrete Jungle&quot; and &quot;The Jennifer Morgue&quot; - are much better. &quot;Accelerando&quot; would have been a good collection of short stories - as a novel it makes your head hurt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Agree with 9. The Eschaton books &#8211; &#8220;Singularity Sky&#8221; and &#8220;Iron Sunrise&#8221; &#8211; aren&#8217;t great, although fans of China Mieville would probably take to them. The Laundry books &#8211; &#8220;The Atrocity Archive&#8221;, &#8220;The Concrete Jungle&#8221; and &#8220;The Jennifer Morgue&#8221; &#8211; are much better. &#8220;Accelerando&#8221; would have been a good collection of short stories &#8211; as a novel it makes your head hurt.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Caldwell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/comment-page-1/#comment-212672</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Caldwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 10:13:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/#comment-212672</guid>
		<description>Stross&#039;s &quot;Atrocity Archives&quot; - a mixture of Len Deighton, Dilbert, and Lovecraft, is well worth the time, even for those disappointed by Iron Sunrise. Though I must register astonishment that &quot;pure pulp&quot; is anything other than a sterling recommendation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Stross&#8217;s &#8220;Atrocity Archives&#8221; &#8211; a mixture of Len Deighton, Dilbert, and Lovecraft, is well worth the time, even for those disappointed by Iron Sunrise. Though I must register astonishment that &#8220;pure pulp&#8221; is anything other than a sterling recommendation.</p>
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		<title>By: chris y</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/comment-page-1/#comment-212665</link>
		<dc:creator>chris y</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 07:07:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/#comment-212665</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;All else being equal, I would have expected that the market for alternate histories of the U.S. was not very large outside the States.&lt;/i&gt;

We can dream, can&#039;t we?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>All else being equal, I would have expected that the market for alternate histories of the U.S. was not very large outside the States.</i></p>

	<p>We can dream, can&#8217;t we?</p>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/comment-page-1/#comment-212662</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 03:17:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/02/halting-state-and-cowboy-angels/#comment-212662</guid>
		<description>neil - yep - it&#039;s not his best. If you want to try-before-you-buy, read &quot;A Colder War&quot;:http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/colderwar.htm to experience some vintage Stross.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>neil &#8211; yep &#8211; it&#8217;s not his best. If you want to try-before-you-buy, read <a href="<a" title="">A Colder War</a> href=&#8221;http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/colderwar.htm&#8221; rel=&#8221;nofollow&#8221;>http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/colderwar.htm to experience some vintage Stross.</p>
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