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	<title>Comments on: Invisible Hands</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<item>
		<title>By: om</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/comment-page-2/#comment-213053</link>
		<dc:creator>om</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Oct 2007 01:42:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/#comment-213053</guid>
		<description>Chris Bertram:

Let’s go back to that quote again:

The torpor of his mind renders him not only incapable of relishing or bearing a part in any rational conversation, but of conceiving any generous, noble, or tender sentiment, and consequently of forming any just judgment concerning many even of the ordinary duties of private life….
That doesn’t seem to me to be an accurate picture of the moral condition of the typical industrial worker.

Maybe, but that&#039;s not what Smith is trying to describe. What he is trying to describe is the condition of the typical industrial worker &quot;unless government takes some pains to prevent it.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Chris Bertram:</p>

	<p>Let&#8217;s go back to that quote again:</p>

	<p>The torpor of his mind renders him not only incapable of relishing or bearing a part in any rational conversation, but of conceiving any generous, noble, or tender sentiment, and consequently of forming any just judgment concerning many even of the ordinary duties of private life&#8230;.<br />
That doesn&#8217;t seem to me to be an accurate picture of the moral condition of the typical industrial worker.</p>

	<p>Maybe, but that&#8217;s not what Smith is trying to describe. What he is trying to describe is the condition of the typical industrial worker &#8220;unless government takes some pains to prevent it.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: Tim Worstall</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-213014</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Worstall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Oct 2007 09:00:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/#comment-213014</guid>
		<description>The problem with &quot;invisible hand&quot; as err, shorthand for Smith is that it&#039;s not very accurate. He actually uses the phrase three times in the million words of his that we have.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The problem with &#8220;invisible hand&#8221; as err, shorthand for Smith is that it&#8217;s not very accurate. He actually uses the phrase three times in the million words of his that we have.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-212987</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 20:03:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/#comment-212987</guid>
		<description>Hmm, I don&#039;t really understand why this &quot;divided government&quot; thing is so terribly important that everyone must acknowledge it or else. 

I can easily see how one could argue (as he apparently does in your quote in #46) that, divided or not, the essence of government is the same: coercion, exercising power of one group over another; the difference being only in the degree and the contents of these groups.

Of course, clearly, someone else could also (convincingly) argue that point is in finding compromises between the groups and individuals, yet it doesn&#039;t make the anti-government angle logically unsound. I suspect most people would subscribe to the view of government as a &quot;necessary evil&quot;, so a guy looking for ways to make it un-necessary doesn&#039;t strike me as totally unreasonable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hmm, I don&#8217;t really understand why this &#8220;divided government&#8221; thing is so terribly important that everyone must acknowledge it or else.</p>

	<p>I can easily see how one could argue (as he apparently does in your quote in #46) that, divided or not, the essence of government is the same: coercion, exercising power of one group over another; the difference being only in the degree and the contents of these groups.</p>

	<p>Of course, clearly, someone else could also (convincingly) argue that point is in finding compromises between the groups and individuals, yet it doesn&#8217;t make the anti-government angle logically unsound. I suspect most people would subscribe to the view of government as a &#8220;necessary evil&#8221;, so a guy looking for ways to make it un-necessary doesn&#8217;t strike me as totally unreasonable.</p>
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		<title>By: bi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-212986</link>
		<dc:creator>bi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 19:09:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/#comment-212986</guid>
		<description>s/Kropotkin/Proudhon/ # oops

But it seems that Kropotkin doesn&#039;t say anything about &quot;divided government&quot; either. Bleh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>s/Kropotkin/Proudhon/ # oops</p>

	<p>But it seems that Kropotkin doesn&#8217;t say anything about &#8220;divided government&#8221; either. Bleh.</p>
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		<title>By: bi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-212985</link>
		<dc:creator>bi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 19:01:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/#comment-212985</guid>
		<description>My point was, writing thousands of pages doesn&#039;t really make one more &quot;nuanced&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>My point was, writing thousands of pages doesn&#8217;t really make one more &#8220;nuanced&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: bi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-212984</link>
		<dc:creator>bi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 18:59:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/#comment-212984</guid>
		<description>abb1:

Um, Kropotkin did write a lot of stuff, but &quot;government&quot; is always a Borg-like entity. In _What is Property?_, for example:

&quot;But what was monarchy?  The sovereignty of one man.  What is democracy?  The sovereignty of the nation, or, rather, of the national majority.&quot;

Oh, so it&#039;s either a small Borg, or a big Borg. But &quot;government&quot; can only a Borg, and let&#039;s forget that the idea of &quot;divided government&quot; ever existed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>abb1:</p>

	<p>Um, Kropotkin did write a lot of stuff, but &#8220;government&#8221; is always a Borg-like entity. In <em>What is Property?</em>, for example:</p>

	<p>&#8220;But what was monarchy?  The sovereignty of one man.  What is democracy?  The sovereignty of the nation, or, rather, of the national majority.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Oh, so it&#8217;s either a small Borg, or a big Borg. But &#8220;government&#8221; can only a Borg, and let&#8217;s forget that the idea of &#8220;divided government&#8221; ever existed.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-212977</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 17:21:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/#comment-212977</guid>
		<description>I agree that an one-line &lt;i&gt;caricature&lt;/i&gt; is usually pretty useless, but people like Smith and Marx, and even Proudhon and Kropotkin, wrote thousands of pages explaining their ideas in a more nuanced way. 

Later some of their one-liners became symbols the whole body of their works, thus we often hear &quot;invisible hand&quot;, &quot;proletarians of the world, unite&quot;, &quot;property is theft&quot;, etc.  But obviously Adam Smith had much-much more to say than just &quot;invisible hand&quot;, otherwise he would&#039;ve only needed to produce a single-page pamphlet or even a fortune cookie.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I agree that an one-line <i>caricature</i> is usually pretty useless, but people like Smith and Marx, and even Proudhon and Kropotkin, wrote thousands of pages explaining their ideas in a more nuanced way.</p>

	<p>Later some of their one-liners became symbols the whole body of their works, thus we often hear &#8220;invisible hand&#8221;, &#8220;proletarians of the world, unite&#8221;, &#8220;property is theft&#8221;, etc.  But obviously Adam Smith had much-much more to say than just &#8220;invisible hand&#8221;, otherwise he would&#8217;ve only needed to produce a single-page pamphlet or even a fortune cookie.</p>
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		<title>By: seth e</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-212956</link>
		<dc:creator>seth e</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 12:19:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/#comment-212956</guid>
		<description>Just to add if anyone wants to see pictures of people shopping at Nike Beijing or benetton, or giant billboards for Sony, konica or chanel i can send some along.just email me at edenbaumstudio at earthlink dot net and ill blackberry you a couple.
I&#039;m in town for a couple of days to see the forbidden city visit 
a couple galleries  and do a little shopping.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Just to add if anyone wants to see pictures of people shopping at Nike Beijing or benetton, or giant billboards for Sony, konica or chanel i can send some along.just email me at edenbaumstudio at earthlink dot net and ill blackberry you a couple.<br />
I&#8217;m in town for a couple of days to see the forbidden city visit<br />
a couple galleries  and do a little shopping.</p>
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		<title>By: bi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-212951</link>
		<dc:creator>bi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 09:40:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/#comment-212951</guid>
		<description>abb1:

&quot;What, you find concepts like &#039;statism&#039;, &#039;individualism&#039; or &#039;collectivism&#039; completely useless because they are too general?&quot;

I do, actually -- they&#039;re even worse than &quot;government&quot;. (I mean, if a word like &quot;collectivism&quot; can refer to anything from out-and-out fascism to Bakunin&#039;s anarchism to social democratic liberalism, how can it not be useless?)

&quot;Can&#039;t abstraction be useful to some extent?&quot;

Yes, as long as they&#039;re not simplistic to the point of being wrong. &quot;Government&quot; isn&#039;t some sort of undifferentiated Borg-like mass of oppressors, just as Smith&#039;s &quot;invisible hand&quot; isn&#039;t just a soulless entity that gives you exactly what you want every time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>abb1:</p>

	<p>&#8220;What, you find concepts like &#8216;statism&#8217;, &#8216;individualism&#8217; or &#8216;collectivism&#8217; completely useless because they are too general?&#8221;</p>

	<p>I do, actually&#8212;they&#8217;re even worse than &#8220;government&#8221;. (I mean, if a word like &#8220;collectivism&#8221; can refer to anything from out-and-out fascism to Bakunin&#8217;s anarchism to social democratic liberalism, how can it not be useless?)</p>

	<p>&#8220;Can&#8217;t abstraction be useful to some extent?&#8221;</p>

	<p>Yes, as long as they&#8217;re not simplistic to the point of being wrong. &#8220;Government&#8221; isn&#8217;t some sort of undifferentiated Borg-like mass of oppressors, just as Smith&#8217;s &#8220;invisible hand&#8221; isn&#8217;t just a soulless entity that gives you exactly what you want every time.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-212950</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 09:16:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/#comment-212950</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;...he just abstracted “government” into some sort of Borg-like entity...&lt;/i&gt;

What, you find concepts like &#039;statism&#039;, &#039;individualism&#039; or &#039;collectivism&#039; completely useless because they are too general? Can&#039;t abstraction be useful to some extent?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8230;he just abstracted &#8220;government&#8221; into some sort of Borg-like entity&#8230;</i></p>

	<p>What, you find concepts like &#8216;statism&#8217;, &#8216;individualism&#8217; or &#8216;collectivism&#8217; completely useless because they are too general? Can&#8217;t abstraction be useful to some extent?</p>
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		<title>By: Tracy W</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-212946</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracy W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 08:02:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/#comment-212946</guid>
		<description>Will - thanks for explaining. 

&lt;i&gt;In the first chapter of Capital when Marx characterizes what it will be like ‘when the practical relations of everyday life offer to man none but perfectly intelligible and reasonable relations’..”&lt;/i&gt;

I think Marx was overconfident. He was writing before electric fridges. I understand how fridges and freezers work, but they still strike me as fundamentally cheating. 

More generally, if we are to understand everything in our economy or in the 19th century economy (&quot;perfectly intelligible and reasonable relations&quot;) we would need not merely a political revolution but a massive increase in the speed in which information can be passed from one head to another.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Will &#8211; thanks for explaining.</p>

	<p><i>In the first chapter of Capital when Marx characterizes what it will be like &#8216;when the practical relations of everyday life offer to man none but perfectly intelligible and reasonable relations&#8217;..&#8221;</i></p>

	<p>I think Marx was overconfident. He was writing before electric fridges. I understand how fridges and freezers work, but they still strike me as fundamentally cheating.</p>

	<p>More generally, if we are to understand everything in our economy or in the 19th century economy (&#8220;perfectly intelligible and reasonable relations&#8221;) we would need not merely a political revolution but a massive increase in the speed in which information can be passed from one head to another.</p>
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		<title>By: bi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-212944</link>
		<dc:creator>bi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 07:39:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/#comment-212944</guid>
		<description>abb1: That doesn&#039;t change in the slightest way the fact that he just abstracted &quot;government&quot; into some sort of Borg-like entity.

&quot;they&#039;re subjects of the evil Chinese conspirators.&quot; -- Brett Bellmore

Ahem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>abb1: That doesn&#8217;t change in the slightest way the fact that he just abstracted &#8220;government&#8221; into some sort of Borg-like entity.</p>

	<p>&#8220;they&#8217;re subjects of the evil Chinese conspirators.&#8221;&#8212;Brett Bellmore</p>

	<p>Ahem.</p>
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		<title>By: Z</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-212939</link>
		<dc:creator>Z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 06:13:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/#comment-212939</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;William Morris had it right in News from Nowhere: wages inversely proportional to job satisfaction.&lt;/i&gt;

There are no wages in News from Nowhere, and most people have completely lost the knowledge of the concept. I enjoyed thouroughly this comparison of Smith and Marx.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>William Morris had it right in News from Nowhere: wages inversely proportional to job satisfaction.</i></p>

	<p>There are no wages in News from Nowhere, and most people have completely lost the knowledge of the concept. I enjoyed thouroughly this comparison of Smith and Marx.</p>
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		<title>By: Martha Bridegam</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-212938</link>
		<dc:creator>Martha Bridegam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 06:09:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/#comment-212938</guid>
		<description>&quot;Seth E&quot; is right. I&#039;ve seen people processing strawberry seedlings in Northern California with the same looks on their faces.

Kropotkin didn&#039;t know from industrial agriculture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Seth E&#8221; is right. I&#8217;ve seen people processing strawberry seedlings in Northern California with the same looks on their faces.</p>

	<p>Kropotkin didn&#8217;t know from industrial agriculture.</p>
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		<title>By: Roy Belmont</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-212937</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Belmont</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 05:52:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/invisible-hands/#comment-212937</guid>
		<description>News from another dimension. The things they make are meaningless beyond any redefining, empty artifacts, like money printed out with no backing - supported by the believers in it, it becomes central, essential, paramount to the dying age. The things that give meaning to their lives are twitch and jerk responses no different from rhesus primates clamped in laboratory hells. How they got there was a series of logical sensible seductions.
But each step in is swept clean and made invisible, until there&#039;s nothing left but freeways and birdless forests.
 Listening to the dementia of the last of their kind seek some way through, but there is no way through. That was the message at the beginning and it hasn&#039;t changed. 
You can&#039;t go this way. If you do go that way, this will happen. When that happens you must turn back. If you don&#039;t turn back, this next thing will happen.
And there you are.
Bloix #22 represents the preterite world now. What&#039;s bizarre and inhuman about these images? 
Maybe they illustrate your inability to imagine a full 24 hour cycle in those worker&#039;s lives.
Who the fuck was Daniel Boone? Red Cloud?
Vercingetorix? Whaat? 
The Neanderthals gathered flowers. Presented them to each other.
I promise you this is true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>News from another dimension. The things they make are meaningless beyond any redefining, empty artifacts, like money printed out with no backing &#8211; supported by the believers in it, it becomes central, essential, paramount to the dying age. The things that give meaning to their lives are twitch and jerk responses no different from rhesus primates clamped in laboratory hells. How they got there was a series of logical sensible seductions.<br />
But each step in is swept clean and made invisible, until there&#8217;s nothing left but freeways and birdless forests.<br />
Listening to the dementia of the last of their kind seek some way through, but there is no way through. That was the message at the beginning and it hasn&#8217;t changed.<br />
You can&#8217;t go this way. If you do go that way, this will happen. When that happens you must turn back. If you don&#8217;t turn back, this next thing will happen.<br />
And there you are.<br />
Bloix #22 represents the preterite world now. What&#8217;s bizarre and inhuman about these images?<br />
Maybe they illustrate your inability to imagine a full 24 hour cycle in those worker&#8217;s lives.<br />
Who the fuck was Daniel Boone? Red Cloud?<br />
Vercingetorix? Whaat?<br />
The Neanderthals gathered flowers. Presented them to each other.<br />
I promise you this is true.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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