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	<title>Comments on: War Crimes</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: nick s</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/comment-page-1/#comment-213061</link>
		<dc:creator>nick s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Oct 2007 04:49:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/#comment-213061</guid>
		<description>On something of a tangent: he shame of the APA -- the body that allows Bush to say that Guantanamo detainees are under &#039;medical supervision&#039; -- will continue to stink for years. I can&#039;t think of a better way for a bloated professional monopoly to shit its own bed so blatantly. Will any of its senior executives suffer? Will they bollocks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>On something of a tangent: he shame of the <span class="caps">APA </span>&#8212;the body that allows Bush to say that Guantanamo detainees are under &#8216;medical supervision&#8217;&#8212;will continue to stink for years. I can&#8217;t think of a better way for a bloated professional monopoly to shit its own bed so blatantly. Will any of its senior executives suffer? Will they bollocks.</p>
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		<title>By: Beyonce Welch</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/comment-page-1/#comment-213012</link>
		<dc:creator>Beyonce Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Oct 2007 08:01:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/#comment-213012</guid>
		<description>IMHO Right Wingers are never ashamed. Beyonce Welch - African American Mother &amp; Grandmother For Peace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><span class="caps">IMHO </span>Right Wingers are never ashamed. Beyonce Welch &#8211; African American Mother &#038; Grandmother For Peace.</p>
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		<title>By: JH</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/comment-page-1/#comment-213008</link>
		<dc:creator>JH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Oct 2007 06:52:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/#comment-213008</guid>
		<description>jonst:

&quot;I am tired of people telling me that the ‘system is broken’&quot;

Well, it is, unfortunately, and the trouble is that too much faith is placed in the Constitution, as if it were incapable of containing nonsense.

And what possible justification can there be in appointing USSC Justices &#039;for life&#039;? - there is none, so why don&#039;t you forcibly retire them at age 65, like practically all other public sector employees. Why do you allow the executive to project its political ideology far beyond its term, where democracy cannot reach?

If the system needs big fixes, it&#039;s broken alright!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>jonst:</p>

	<p>&#8220;I am tired of people telling me that the &#8216;system is broken&#8217;&#8221;</p>

	<p>Well, it is, unfortunately, and the trouble is that too much faith is placed in the Constitution, as if it were incapable of containing nonsense.</p>

	<p>And what possible justification can there be in appointing <span class="caps">USSC </span>Justices &#8216;for life&#8217;? &#8211; there is none, so why don&#8217;t you forcibly retire them at age 65, like practically all other public sector employees. Why do you allow the executive to project its political ideology far beyond its term, where democracy cannot reach?</p>

	<p>If the system needs big fixes, it&#8217;s broken alright!</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/comment-page-1/#comment-212983</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 18:38:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/#comment-212983</guid>
		<description>&quot;.....Imagine then that a terrorist attack against the US occurs and that someone is able to make a convincing case that the attack could have been prevented had the policy not been changed.&quot;

Posted by Quo Vadis 

Already happened (9/11/2001, &#039;Bin Laden Determined to Attack Within US&#039;, etc.).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;&#8230;..Imagine then that a terrorist attack against the US occurs and that someone is able to make a convincing case that the attack could have been prevented had the policy not been changed.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Posted by Quo Vadis</p>

	<p>Already happened (9/11/2001, &#8216;Bin Laden Determined to Attack Within US&#8217;, etc.).</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/comment-page-1/#comment-212982</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 18:31:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/#comment-212982</guid>
		<description>Yes, you were right to say that as things stand the ICC does not have jurisdiction over US forces in Iraq. It&#039;s a different story for the UK, of course...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yes, you were right to say that as things stand the <span class="caps">ICC</span> does not have jurisdiction over US forces in Iraq. It&#8217;s a different story for the UK, of course&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/comment-page-1/#comment-212979</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 17:28:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/#comment-212979</guid>
		<description>Engels- my too quick analysis was basically about the actual meaning of the sections you quote.  In particular, since the US isn&#039;t a party, and Iraq isn&#039;t a party, the only way a case involving the US in Iraq could get before the ICC would be if it was refered by the security council, and since that would have to include US, it obviously isn&#039;t going to happen.  The rule about investigations by domestic courts has also been interprited _very_ loosely, essentially making it so that jurisdiction can be blocked in nearly any case.  The chance of an ICC action against any US figure for anything involving Iraq are almost non-existant, I&#039;d now argue, after having looked a bit more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Engels- my too quick analysis was basically about the actual meaning of the sections you quote.  In particular, since the US isn&#8217;t a party, and Iraq isn&#8217;t a party, the only way a case involving the US in Iraq could get before the <span class="caps">ICC</span> would be if it was refered by the security council, and since that would have to include US, it obviously isn&#8217;t going to happen.  The rule about investigations by domestic courts has also been interprited <em>very</em> loosely, essentially making it so that jurisdiction can be blocked in nearly any case.  The chance of an <span class="caps">ICC</span> action against any US figure for anything involving Iraq are almost non-existant, I&#8217;d now argue, after having looked a bit more.</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/comment-page-1/#comment-212978</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 17:22:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/#comment-212978</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;it’s highly unlikely that any US figures would ever go before the ICC even if the US were a member since the ICC doesn’t ahve jusridiction over any case that has been considered by a domestic court, even if the domestic action was not, in any real sense, plausible. &lt;/i&gt;

I actually don&#039;t think that&#039;s true. According to the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.icc-cpi.int/about/ataglance/jurisdiction.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ICC website&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;The ICC will not replace national courts, but will be complementary to national criminal jurisdictions. The Court will only investigate and prosecute if a State is unwilling or unable to genuinely prosecute. This will be determined by the judges. &lt;b&gt;Unjustified delays in proceedings as well as proceedings which are merely intended to shield persons from criminal responsibility will not render a case inadmissible before the ICC.&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;i&gt;does the ICC even have juristiction over countries that are not members?&lt;/i&gt;

In theory, even though the US is not a party to the ICC, the ICC has jurisdiction over genocide, crimes against humanity or war crimes committed by US troops on the territory of any state which is a party. From the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.icc-cpi.int/about/ataglance/jurisdiction.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ICC website&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;The Court may exercise its jurisdiction with respect to the crime of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes either when the situation is referred to the Prosecutor by a State Party or by the Security Council, or when the Prosecutor decides to initiate an investigation his or her own decision and on the basis of information received. However, in this last case, the Prosecutor must seek the authorization of the Pre-Trial Chamber before proceeding with the investigation.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;[In the case where the situation was not referred to the Court by the Security Council] the Court may exercise its jurisdiction only if either the State on the territory of which the suspected crime occurred (State of territoriality), or the State of which the person suspected of having committed the crime is a national (State of nationality of the suspected person), is a State Party to the Statute.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;If neither of these two States is a State Party to the Statute, the Court will not be in a position to investigate the suspected crimes, except if either the State of territoriality or the State of nationality of the suspected person accepts the exercise of jurisdiction of the Court by declaration lodged with the Registrar.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

However, the US has taken aggressive action to prevent the ICC from exercising its jurisdiction over US personnel in accordance with the above. According to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/icc/us.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Human Rights Watch&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;First, the Bush administration negotiated a Security Council resolution to provide an exemption for U.S. personnel operating in U.N. peacekeeping operations. ...&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;Second, the Bush administration is requesting states around the world to approve bilateral agreements requiring them not to surrender American nationals to the ICC. The goal of these agreements (&quot;impunity agreements&quot; or so-called &quot;Article 98 agreements&quot;) is to exempt U.S. nationals from ICC jurisdiction. They also lead to a two-tiered rule of law for the most serious international crimes: one that applies to U.S. nationals; another that applies to the rest of the world&#039;s citizens. ......&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;Thirdly, the U.S Congress has assisted the Bush administration&#039;s effort to obtain bilateral impunity agreements. The Congress passed the American Servicemembers&#039; Protection Act (ASPA), which was signed into law by President Bush on 3 August. The major anti-ICC provisions in ASPA are: a prohibition on U.S. cooperation with the ICC; an &quot;invasion of the Hague&quot; provision: authorizing the President to &quot;use all means necessary and appropriate&quot; to free U.S. personnel (and certain allied personnel) detained or imprisoned by the ICC; punishment for States that join the ICC treaty: refusing military aid to States&#039; Parties to the treaty (except major U.S. allies); a prohibition on U.S. participation in peacekeeping activities unless immunity from the ICC is guaranteed for U.S. personnel....&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>it&#8217;s highly unlikely that any US figures would ever go before the <span class="caps">ICC</span> even if the US were a member since the <span class="caps">ICC</span> doesn&#8217;t ahve jusridiction over any case that has been considered by a domestic court, even if the domestic action was not, in any real sense, plausible. </i></p>

	<p>I actually don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s true. According to the <a href="http://www.icc-cpi.int/about/ataglance/jurisdiction.html" rel="nofollow"><span class="caps">ICC</span> website</a></p>

	<p><blockquote>The <span class="caps">ICC</span> will not replace national courts, but will be complementary to national criminal jurisdictions. The Court will only investigate and prosecute if a State is unwilling or unable to genuinely prosecute. This will be determined by the judges. <b>Unjustified delays in proceedings as well as proceedings which are merely intended to shield persons from criminal responsibility will not render a case inadmissible before the <span class="caps">ICC</span>.</b></blockquote></p>

	<p><i>does the <span class="caps">ICC</span> even have juristiction over countries that are not members?</i></p>

	<p>In theory, even though the US is not a party to the <span class="caps">ICC</span>, the <span class="caps">ICC</span> has jurisdiction over genocide, crimes against humanity or war crimes committed by US troops on the territory of any state which is a party. From the <a href="http://www.icc-cpi.int/about/ataglance/jurisdiction.html" rel="nofollow"><span class="caps">ICC</span> website</a></p>

	<p><blockquote>The Court may exercise its jurisdiction with respect to the crime of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes either when the situation is referred to the Prosecutor by a State Party or by the Security Council, or when the Prosecutor decides to initiate an investigation his or her own decision and on the basis of information received. However, in this last case, the Prosecutor must seek the authorization of the Pre-Trial Chamber before proceeding with the investigation.</blockquote></p>

	<p><blockquote>[In the case where the situation was not referred to the Court by the Security Council] the Court may exercise its jurisdiction only if either the State on the territory of which the suspected crime occurred (State of territoriality), or the State of which the person suspected of having committed the crime is a national (State of nationality of the suspected person), is a State Party to the Statute.</blockquote></p>

	<p><blockquote>If neither of these two States is a State Party to the Statute, the Court will not be in a position to investigate the suspected crimes, except if either the State of territoriality or the State of nationality of the suspected person accepts the exercise of jurisdiction of the Court by declaration lodged with the Registrar.</blockquote></p>

	<p>However, the US has taken aggressive action to prevent the <span class="caps">ICC</span> from exercising its jurisdiction over US personnel in accordance with the above. According to <a href="http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/icc/us.htm" rel="nofollow">Human Rights Watch</a>:</p>

	<p><blockquote>First, the Bush administration negotiated a Security Council resolution to provide an exemption for U.S. personnel operating in U.N. peacekeeping operations. &#8230;</blockquote></p>

	<p><blockquote>Second, the Bush administration is requesting states around the world to approve bilateral agreements requiring them not to surrender American nationals to the <span class="caps">ICC</span>. The goal of these agreements (&#8220;impunity agreements&#8221; or so-called &#8220;Article 98 agreements&#8221;) is to exempt U.S. nationals from <span class="caps">ICC</span> jurisdiction. They also lead to a two-tiered rule of law for the most serious international crimes: one that applies to U.S. nationals; another that applies to the rest of the world&#8217;s citizens. &#8230;&#8230;</blockquote></p>

	<p><blockquote>Thirdly, the U.S Congress has assisted the Bush administration&#8217;s effort to obtain bilateral impunity agreements. The Congress passed the American Servicemembers&#8217; Protection Act (ASPA), which was signed into law by President Bush on 3 August. The major anti-ICC provisions in <span class="caps">ASPA</span> are: a prohibition on U.S. cooperation with the <span class="caps">ICC</span>; an &#8220;invasion of the Hague&#8221; provision: authorizing the President to &#8220;use all means necessary and appropriate&#8221; to free U.S. personnel (and certain allied personnel) detained or imprisoned by the <span class="caps">ICC</span>; punishment for States that join the <span class="caps">ICC</span> treaty: refusing military aid to States&#8217; Parties to the treaty (except major U.S. allies); a prohibition on U.S. participation in peacekeeping activities unless immunity from the <span class="caps">ICC</span> is guaranteed for U.S. personnel&#8230;.</blockquote></p>
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		<title>By: just an observation &#171; ex-lion tamer</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/comment-page-1/#comment-212975</link>
		<dc:creator>just an observation &#171; ex-lion tamer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 16:39:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/#comment-212975</guid>
		<description>[...] 5th, 2007 &#183; No Comments  everyone&#8217;s talking about what&#8217;s wrong and wondering what to do&#8230;.when the fact is, we all know what we have to do. and what we have to do, we can&#8217;t [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] 5th, 2007 &middot; No Comments  everyone&#8217;s talking about what&#8217;s wrong and wondering what to do&#8230;.when the fact is, we all know what we have to do. and what we have to do, we can&#8217;t [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Quo Vadis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/comment-page-1/#comment-212973</link>
		<dc:creator>Quo Vadis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 16:25:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/#comment-212973</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;~50% of the American people don’t mind or actively support it.&lt;/i&gt;

This is the issue and it’s a matter of trust.  Presumably, that ~50% believe that those who have the responsibility to protect the US from terrorist attacks are doing these things because they are necessary.  Few people have the knowledge of intelligence requirements and interrogation methods to make the necessary value judgments themselves so they have to trust someone else to make these decisions for them.  If you are going to convince that 50% that those responsible should be punished, you are going to have to have to weaken that trust or provide an authoritative voice that is more trustworthy.  If this can’t be done, then any attempt to change the policies or punish those responsible will be impossible or at best, fraught with risk of consequences.  

Imagine if the UN or the ICC or the German courts or some other entity outside the US managed to convict and punish some US officials or intelligence personnel and thereby affect some change in US policy.  Imagine then that a terrorist attack against the US occurs and that someone is able to make a convincing case that the attack could have been prevented had the policy not been changed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>~50% of the American people don&#8217;t mind or actively support it.</i></p>

	<p>This is the issue and it&#8217;s a matter of trust.  Presumably, that ~50% believe that those who have the responsibility to protect the US from terrorist attacks are doing these things because they are necessary.  Few people have the knowledge of intelligence requirements and interrogation methods to make the necessary value judgments themselves so they have to trust someone else to make these decisions for them.  If you are going to convince that 50% that those responsible should be punished, you are going to have to have to weaken that trust or provide an authoritative voice that is more trustworthy.  If this can&#8217;t be done, then any attempt to change the policies or punish those responsible will be impossible or at best, fraught with risk of consequences.</p>

	<p>Imagine if the UN or the <span class="caps">ICC</span> or the German courts or some other entity outside the US managed to convict and punish some US officials or intelligence personnel and thereby affect some change in US policy.  Imagine then that a terrorist attack against the US occurs and that someone is able to make a convincing case that the attack could have been prevented had the policy not been changed.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/comment-page-1/#comment-212972</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 15:31:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/#comment-212972</guid>
		<description>Sorry, I trimmed my line:  &quot;I don&#039;t know&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sorry, I trimmed my line:  &#8220;I don&#8217;t know&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/comment-page-1/#comment-212971</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 15:30:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/#comment-212971</guid>
		<description>&quot;Maybe Barry, just maybe, the GOP thought the same thing in 1932. ‘We’ll be back in power by 1937!’. &quot;

I think that perhaps that whole Depression thing hurt them a bit.  Jeez.


&quot;Yes, that is possible. What do you propose? I repeat Barry, what do you propose? Me, I’m playing the optimist. &quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Maybe Barry, just maybe, the <span class="caps">GOP</span> thought the same thing in 1932. &#8216;We&#8217;ll be back in power by 1937!&#8217;. &#8221;</p>

	<p>I think that perhaps that whole Depression thing hurt them a bit.  Jeez.</p>


	<p>&#8220;Yes, that is possible. What do you propose? I repeat Barry, what do you propose? Me, I&#8217;m playing the optimist. &#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: jonst</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/comment-page-1/#comment-212970</link>
		<dc:creator>jonst</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 15:28:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/#comment-212970</guid>
		<description>Maybe Barry, just maybe, the GOP thought the same thing in 1932. &#039;We&#039;ll be back in power by 1937!&#039;. Look, I KNOW, and wrote, in my previous comment, the the present bunch of corporate knuckle-headed, gutless Dems will not &quot;fix things&quot;. Please don&#039;t attach that straw man to me.  In this thread...you want to be the pessimist. &#039;it won&#039;t work, and even if it does, you can&#039;t convict them of anything, and even if you do, they&#039;ll just be back in 2012&#039; and so on. Yes, that is possible. What do you propose? I repeat Barry, what do you propose? Me, I&#039;m playing the optimist. Maybe the things I propose are unrealistic. Ok. Look, all I can do is try to work, to do my small part, to get rid of these SOBs, in Nov 08. I don&#039;t know what comes after that. I guess it depends on the size of a Dem victory. And the kind of Dems that get elected. People will respond well, Hillary will get elected and YOU KNOW HER TYPE&quot;. I do. I feel I most certainly do. Its why I&#039;m optimistic. Which ever group is in the ascendancy in the Dem party, Hillary is for. If its progressives than by god we&#039;ll have no bigger progressive than Hillary. Until the progressives are unfashionable. Then she will drop progressives in a minute. So, my hope, and expectation is, progressives will come to power in 08. Hillary will gladly ride the wave. Even as she tries to slow it down. I can live with that. I can&#039;t live with Bush et al.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Maybe Barry, just maybe, the <span class="caps">GOP</span> thought the same thing in 1932. &#8216;We&#8217;ll be back in power by 1937!&#8217;. Look, <span class="caps">I KNOW</span>, and wrote, in my previous comment, the the present bunch of corporate knuckle-headed, gutless Dems will not &#8220;fix things&#8221;. Please don&#8217;t attach that straw man to me.  In this thread&#8230;you want to be the pessimist. &#8216;it won&#8217;t work, and even if it does, you can&#8217;t convict them of anything, and even if you do, they&#8217;ll just be back in 2012&#8217; and so on. Yes, that is possible. What do you propose? I repeat Barry, what do you propose? Me, I&#8217;m playing the optimist. Maybe the things I propose are unrealistic. Ok. Look, all I can do is try to work, to do my small part, to get rid of these SOBs, in Nov 08. I don&#8217;t know what comes after that. I guess it depends on the size of a Dem victory. And the kind of Dems that get elected. People will respond well, Hillary will get elected and <span class="caps">YOU KNOW HER TYPE</span>&#8221;. I do. I feel I most certainly do. Its why I&#8217;m optimistic. Which ever group is in the ascendancy in the Dem party, Hillary is for. If its progressives than by god we&#8217;ll have no bigger progressive than Hillary. Until the progressives are unfashionable. Then she will drop progressives in a minute. So, my hope, and expectation is, progressives will come to power in 08. Hillary will gladly ride the wave. Even as she tries to slow it down. I can live with that. I can&#8217;t live with Bush et al.</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Holmes</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/comment-page-1/#comment-212969</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Holmes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 14:52:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/#comment-212969</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Between this and Jane Mayer’s explosive article in August about the CIA black sites, I am increasingly confident that when the history of the Bush Administration is written, this systematic violation of statutory and treaty-based law concerning fundamental war crimes and other horrific offenses will be seen as the blackest mark in our nation’s recent history&lt;/i&gt;

I further boldly predict that almost no one will care, which is not a good sign for the future of American liberty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Between this and Jane Mayer&#8217;s explosive article in August about the <span class="caps">CIA</span> black sites, I am increasingly confident that when the history of the Bush Administration is written, this systematic violation of statutory and treaty-based law concerning fundamental war crimes and other horrific offenses will be seen as the blackest mark in our nation&#8217;s recent history</i></p>

	<p>I further boldly predict that almost no one will care, which is not a good sign for the future of American liberty.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/comment-page-1/#comment-212968</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 14:48:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/#comment-212968</guid>
		<description>jonst, electing a Democratic president in &#039;08 won&#039;t fix things; at best, it&#039;ll slow the unraveling.  The people who did these things won&#039;t be punished, even to the extent of career damage (with rare exceptions, of course; bad luck happens to even bad people). Given the layers of classification, the sheer legal difficulties of prosecution, the fanatical desire of the GOP to prevent such prosectuions, and the media&#039;s indifference (they&#039;ll be sniffing panties again), there will be no prosecutions to speak of.

This means that the people who did this will have correctly learned that they can get away with such things, that they can profit by such things, and that even general public knowledge of such things isn&#039;t a problem.  

The lessons of the GOP for the past six years also includes that a GOP president can tell a Democratic Congress to f*ck off to an extent that I wouldn&#039;t have believed back in 2000, or even 2005.  The Democratic leadership in Congress will probably attack the Democratic President (along with the GOP), but all that that will do is demonstrate that the Dem leadership only has the b*lls to attack their own, weakening the Democrats&#039; power.

In 2013 or 2015, a GOP administration will again take power.  Many of the senior people will be middle-management guys from this administration, just as many in this administration were from the Nixon, Ford, Reagan and Bush I administrations.  And the one clear lesson they&#039;ll have learned is that they can get away with so very, very much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>jonst, electing a Democratic president in &#8216;08 won&#8217;t fix things; at best, it&#8217;ll slow the unraveling.  The people who did these things won&#8217;t be punished, even to the extent of career damage (with rare exceptions, of course; bad luck happens to even bad people). Given the layers of classification, the sheer legal difficulties of prosecution, the fanatical desire of the <span class="caps">GOP</span> to prevent such prosectuions, and the media&#8217;s indifference (they&#8217;ll be sniffing panties again), there will be no prosecutions to speak of.</p>

	<p>This means that the people who did this will have correctly learned that they can get away with such things, that they can profit by such things, and that even general public knowledge of such things isn&#8217;t a problem.</p>

	<p>The lessons of the <span class="caps">GOP</span> for the past six years also includes that a <span class="caps">GOP</span> president can tell a Democratic Congress to f*ck off to an extent that I wouldn&#8217;t have believed back in 2000, or even 2005.  The Democratic leadership in Congress will probably attack the Democratic President (along with the <span class="caps">GOP</span>), but all that that will do is demonstrate that the Dem leadership only has the b*lls to attack their own, weakening the Democrats&#8217; power.</p>

	<p>In 2013 or 2015, a <span class="caps">GOP</span> administration will again take power.  Many of the senior people will be middle-management guys from this administration, just as many in this administration were from the Nixon, Ford, Reagan and Bush I administrations.  And the one clear lesson they&#8217;ll have learned is that they can get away with so very, very much.</p>
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		<title>By: matt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/comment-page-1/#comment-212966</link>
		<dc:creator>matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 14:45:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/04/war-crimes-2/#comment-212966</guid>
		<description>Matt W.- does the ICC even have juristiction over countries that are not members?  I don&#039;t think so but I can&#039;t recall for sure.  Also, it&#039;s highly unlikely that _any_ US figures would ever go before the ICC even if the US were a member since the ICC doesn&#039;t ahve jusridiction over any case that has been considered by a domestic court, even if the domestic action was not, in any real sense, plausible.  Surely something like this would happen before any US figures would go before the ICC.  This clause was necessary to get the ICC going at all but has seriously limited its power.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Matt W.- does the <span class="caps">ICC</span> even have juristiction over countries that are not members?  I don&#8217;t think so but I can&#8217;t recall for sure.  Also, it&#8217;s highly unlikely that <em>any</em> US figures would ever go before the <span class="caps">ICC</span> even if the US were a member since the <span class="caps">ICC</span> doesn&#8217;t ahve jusridiction over any case that has been considered by a domestic court, even if the domestic action was not, in any real sense, plausible.  Surely something like this would happen before any US figures would go before the <span class="caps">ICC</span>.  This clause was necessary to get the <span class="caps">ICC</span> going at all but has seriously limited its power.</p>
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