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	<title>Comments on: Are Philosophers Scruffy?</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: o</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/comment-page-1/#comment-213869</link>
		<dc:creator>o</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2007 17:04:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/#comment-213869</guid>
		<description>&quot;as everyone knows, its impossible to be scruffy wearing a tie.&quot;

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/3009535.jpg?v=1&amp;c=ViewImages&amp;k=2&amp;d=88652C1555D9EDEB0A6F7E1CE040C791A55A1E4F32AD3138</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;as everyone knows, its impossible to be scruffy wearing a tie.&#8221;</p>

	<p><a href="http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/3009535.jpg?v=1&#038;c=ViewImages&#038;k=2&#038;d=88652C1555D9EDEB0A6F7E1CE040C791A55A1E4F32AD3138" rel="nofollow">http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/3009535.jpg?v=1&#038;c=ViewImages&#038;k=2&#038;d=88652C1555D9EDEB0A6F7E1CE040C791A55A1E4F32AD3138</a></p>
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		<title>By: lindsey</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/comment-page-1/#comment-213834</link>
		<dc:creator>lindsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2007 07:10:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/#comment-213834</guid>
		<description>I stand by the Badger gear advice.  Val and I can help you pick something out!  It would definitly make you look smart (as the English keep saying over here).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I stand by the Badger gear advice.  Val and I can help you pick something out!  It would definitly make you look smart (as the English keep saying over here).</p>
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		<title>By: rea</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/comment-page-1/#comment-213813</link>
		<dc:creator>rea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 20:19:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/#comment-213813</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Whitty gave me a U of London tie as a parting gift (and a sort of joke). When I got back to Madison I started wearing it to work, my wife thinking the habit would last about 3 weeks. But I still do it 5 years later, and feel wierd without it now. But, scruffy I remain.&lt;/i&gt;

Man, if you have &lt;i&gt;one&lt;/i&gt; tie, which you&#039;ve been wearing every working day for &lt;i&gt;five years&lt;/i&gt;, you definitely qualify as scruffy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Whitty gave me a U of London tie as a parting gift (and a sort of joke). When I got back to Madison I started wearing it to work, my wife thinking the habit would last about 3 weeks. But I still do it 5 years later, and feel wierd without it now. But, scruffy I remain.</i></p>

	<p>Man, if you have <i>one</i> tie, which you&#8217;ve been wearing every working day for <i>five years</i>, you definitely qualify as scruffy.</p>
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		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/comment-page-1/#comment-213809</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 19:44:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/#comment-213809</guid>
		<description>Tom -- lindsey thinks I&#039;d get better evaluations if I wore some UW Madison paraphenalia, but it isn&#039;t going to happen. My distrust of the evaluations system is extreme, and I do get great evaluations, but I think it has more to do with my jovial manner and english accent than the ties... 

Honest, matt and lindsey, I know I&#039;m scruffy, and regard myself as the second best bit of evidence that one can be scruffy while wearing a tie (my dad is the best bit). I was kidding. 

Tom S -- Here&#039;s the story. I was a guest at a large &quot;Question Time&quot; - type event in London with Tooley and a couple of people connected with the government. Whitty was the moderator. Tooley dresses impeccably, and when I walked into the blue room he said, with genuine disappointment, &quot;Oh, Harry, you could at least have worn a tie&quot;. SO, a few months later when I letf, Whitty gave me a U of London tie as a parting gift (and a sort of joke). When I got back to Madison I started wearing it to work, my wife thinking the habit would last about 3 weeks. But I still do it 5 years later, and feel wierd without it now. But, scruffy I remain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Tom&#8212;lindsey thinks I&#8217;d get better evaluations if I wore some <span class="caps">UW </span>Madison paraphenalia, but it isn&#8217;t going to happen. My distrust of the evaluations system is extreme, and I do get great evaluations, but I think it has more to do with my jovial manner and english accent than the ties&#8230;</p>

	<p>Honest, matt and lindsey, I know I&#8217;m scruffy, and regard myself as the second best bit of evidence that one can be scruffy while wearing a tie (my dad is the best bit). I was kidding.</p>

	<p>Tom S&#8212;Here&#8217;s the story. I was a guest at a large &#8220;Question Time&#8221; &#8211; type event in London with Tooley and a couple of people connected with the government. Whitty was the moderator. Tooley dresses impeccably, and when I walked into the blue room he said, with genuine disappointment, &#8220;Oh, Harry, you could at least have worn a tie&#8221;. SO, a few months later when I letf, Whitty gave me a U of London tie as a parting gift (and a sort of joke). When I got back to Madison I started wearing it to work, my wife thinking the habit would last about 3 weeks. But I still do it 5 years later, and feel wierd without it now. But, scruffy I remain.</p>
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		<title>By: lindsey</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/comment-page-1/#comment-213789</link>
		<dc:creator>lindsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 15:50:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/#comment-213789</guid>
		<description>Harry,
I&#039;m happy to say this post coincides with my observation of the philosophy teacher at Lycee Littre.  It makes me feel at home, really.  I would have felt a bit strange if he was well put together.  And ps, I think you may qualify as scruffy.  Tweed jackets and cutesy ties aren&#039;t a cure all :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Harry,<br />
I&#8217;m happy to say this post coincides with my observation of the philosophy teacher at Lycee Littre.  It makes me feel at home, really.  I would have felt a bit strange if he was well put together.  And ps, I think you may qualify as scruffy.  Tweed jackets and cutesy ties aren&#8217;t a cure all :)</p>
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		<title>By: thag</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/comment-page-1/#comment-213783</link>
		<dc:creator>thag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:31:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/#comment-213783</guid>
		<description>I was delighted to see the stripes/checks theorem, because that was one I had actually constructed myself, though more by way of generalization from cases than by deduction from first principles.

But what the complaint about the finite undecideability of G really reveals is a deeper fact at issue:
people who have a sense of style don&#039;t *need* algorithms, and people who need algorithms are *never* going to get a clue.

What we&#039;re dealing with here is something entirely non-algorithmic in nature: it&#039;s closer to a secondary quality in things.

Imagine a color-blind person trying to come up with an algorithm for &quot;green&quot;--it would be hard to do, of course, but more to the point, it would be completely unrelated to how color-sighted people keep track of greenness.

That&#039;s why, if you ask someone (your girlfriend, e.g.) for a complete and exhaust set of rules for what counts as &quot;clashing&quot;, she will say &quot;it&#039;s not a bunch of rules, you moron, you just *look* at it, and you can see it clashes!&quot;.  And then you realize that you were born fashion-blind, and there&#039;s not much you can do.  Someone can try to tell you phenylthiocarbamide tastes like, but if you cannot taste it, no algorithm can function as a substitute.

So the very fact of *looking* for an algorithm shows you that the person looking for it does not yet realize how deeply clueless they are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I was delighted to see the stripes/checks theorem, because that was one I had actually constructed myself, though more by way of generalization from cases than by deduction from first principles.</p>

	<p>But what the complaint about the finite undecideability of G really reveals is a deeper fact at issue:<br />
people who have a sense of style don&#8217;t <strong>need</strong> algorithms, and people who need algorithms are <strong>never</strong> going to get a clue.</p>

	<p>What we&#8217;re dealing with here is something entirely non-algorithmic in nature: it&#8217;s closer to a secondary quality in things.</p>

	<p>Imagine a color-blind person trying to come up with an algorithm for &#8220;green&#8221;&#8212;it would be hard to do, of course, but more to the point, it would be completely unrelated to how color-sighted people keep track of greenness.</p>

	<p>That&#8217;s why, if you ask someone (your girlfriend, e.g.) for a complete and exhaust set of rules for what counts as &#8220;clashing&#8221;, she will say &#8220;it&#8217;s not a bunch of rules, you moron, you just <strong>look</strong> at it, and you can see it clashes!&#8221;.  And then you realize that you were born fashion-blind, and there&#8217;s not much you can do.  Someone can try to tell you phenylthiocarbamide tastes like, but if you cannot taste it, no algorithm can function as a substitute.</p>

	<p>So the very fact of <strong>looking</strong> for an algorithm shows you that the person looking for it does not yet realize how deeply clueless they are.</p>
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		<title>By: rea</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/comment-page-1/#comment-213782</link>
		<dc:creator>rea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:27:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/#comment-213782</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;

&lt;/i&gt;&lt;i&gt;[G]reat confusion ensued, and every one was compelled to drink large quantities of wine. Aristodemus said that Eryximachus, Phaedrus, and others went away-he himself fell asleep, and as the nights were long took a good rest: he was awakened towards daybreak by a crowing of cocks, and when he awoke, the others were either asleep, or had gone away; there remained only Socrates, Aristophanes, and Agathon, who were drinking out of a large goblet which they passed round, and Socrates was discoursing to them. Aristodemus was only half awake, and he did not hear the beginning of the discourse; the chief thing which he remembered was Socrates compelling the other two to acknowledge that the genius of comedy was the same with that of tragedy, and that the true artist in tragedy was an artist in comedy also. To this they were constrained to assent, being drowsy, and not quite following the argument. And first of all Aristophanes dropped off, then, when the day was already dawning, Agathon. Socrates, having laid them to sleep, rose to depart; Aristodemus, as his manner was, following him. At the Lyceum he took a bath, and passed the day as usual. In the evening he retired to rest at his own home.&lt;/i&gt;--Plato, &lt;i&gt;Symposium&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i></i></p>

	<p><i>[G]reat confusion ensued, and every one was compelled to drink large quantities of wine. Aristodemus said that Eryximachus, Phaedrus, and others went away-he himself fell asleep, and as the nights were long took a good rest: he was awakened towards daybreak by a crowing of cocks, and when he awoke, the others were either asleep, or had gone away; there remained only Socrates, Aristophanes, and Agathon, who were drinking out of a large goblet which they passed round, and Socrates was discoursing to them. Aristodemus was only half awake, and he did not hear the beginning of the discourse; the chief thing which he remembered was Socrates compelling the other two to acknowledge that the genius of comedy was the same with that of tragedy, and that the true artist in tragedy was an artist in comedy also. To this they were constrained to assent, being drowsy, and not quite following the argument. And first of all Aristophanes dropped off, then, when the day was already dawning, Agathon. Socrates, having laid them to sleep, rose to depart; Aristodemus, as his manner was, following him. At the Lyceum he took a bath, and passed the day as usual. In the evening he retired to rest at his own home.</i>&#8212;Plato, <i>Symposium</i></p>
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		<title>By: John Protevi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/comment-page-1/#comment-213776</link>
		<dc:creator>John Protevi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 13:34:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/#comment-213776</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s also a code at the APA meetings such that scruffiness denotes high status. Only desperate job-seekers wear suits; those who already have jobs don&#039;t. 

But regarding the continentals as PIBs (People In Black): a revolt is forming, led by Rosi Braidotti. Pastels have been seen!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There&#8217;s also a code at the <span class="caps">APA</span> meetings such that scruffiness denotes high status. Only desperate job-seekers wear suits; those who already have jobs don&#8217;t.</p>

	<p>But regarding the continentals as PIBs (People In Black): a revolt is forming, led by Rosi Braidotti. Pastels have been seen!</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Bertram</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/comment-page-1/#comment-213774</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bertram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 12:02:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/#comment-213774</guid>
		<description>Did Socrates wear socks with his sandals?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Did Socrates wear socks with his sandals?</p>
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		<title>By: Thom Brooks</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/comment-page-1/#comment-213771</link>
		<dc:creator>Thom Brooks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 10:25:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/#comment-213771</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t buy the view that philosophers are any more scruffy than other groups. I blame Plato&#039;s Symposium and its introductory note of what a rare treat is was to find Socrates bathed abd wearing new sandals for the picture of philosophers as scruffy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t buy the view that philosophers are any more scruffy than other groups. I blame Plato&#8217;s Symposium and its introductory note of what a rare treat is was to find Socrates bathed abd wearing new sandals for the picture of philosophers as scruffy.</p>
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		<title>By: Katherine</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/comment-page-1/#comment-213769</link>
		<dc:creator>Katherine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 09:58:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/#comment-213769</guid>
		<description>I reckon IT nerds can out-scruff-whilst-wearing-ties nearly anyone on the planet.  My other half actually had, and wore, a 10 year old South Park tie.  No really.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I reckon IT nerds can out-scruff-whilst-wearing-ties nearly anyone on the planet.  My other half actually had, and wore, a 10 year old South Park tie.  No really.</p>
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		<title>By: ben saunders</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/comment-page-1/#comment-213766</link>
		<dc:creator>ben saunders</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 09:20:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/#comment-213766</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m surprised no one here has yet picked up on the claim that Dutch academics trangress the limits of decency by wearing white socks:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3397043.stm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m surprised no one here has yet picked up on the claim that Dutch academics trangress the limits of decency by wearing white socks:<br />
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3397043.stm" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3397043.stm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Bertram</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/comment-page-1/#comment-213763</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bertram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 07:18:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/#comment-213763</guid>
		<description>Re Kieran at 15, the full passage is quoted by Chris Brooke at 

http://virtualstoa.net/2002/08/27/80771552/

bq. … but you have to hand it to US academics: they sure know how to organize a conference that feels like a serious business convention. There were actually men and women there in suits, especially those silver-sheeny ones in a mottled semi-reflective material that looks as if they descend from a job-lot of curtain lengths delivered by UFO somewhere over Colorado circa 1955… By dressing below this level, it was possible to regard oneself as a marginally dangerous intellectual presence, or at any rate a marginal one. (In the UK, by contrast, it is physically impossible to dress so low as to be the worst-dressed person present at the Annual Conference of the British Sociological Association).


Alan Carling, “Rational Choice Marxism and Postmodern Feminism: Towards a More Meaningful Incomprehension” in Rational Choice Marxism, ed. Terrell Carver and Paul Thomas, Pennsylvania University Press, 1995, p.301.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Re Kieran at 15, the full passage is quoted by Chris Brooke at</p>

	<p><a href="http://virtualstoa.net/2002/08/27/80771552/" rel="nofollow">http://virtualstoa.net/2002/08/27/80771552/</a></p>

	<blockquote>&#8230; but you have to hand it to US academics: they sure know how to organize a conference that feels like a serious business convention. There were actually men and women there in suits, especially those silver-sheeny ones in a mottled semi-reflective material that looks as if they descend from a job-lot of curtain lengths delivered by <span class="caps">UFO</span> somewhere over Colorado circa 1955&#8230; By dressing below this level, it was possible to regard oneself as a marginally dangerous intellectual presence, or at any rate a marginal one. (In the UK, by contrast, it is physically impossible to dress so low as to be the worst-dressed person present at the Annual Conference of the British Sociological Association).</blockquote>


	<p>Alan Carling, &#8220;Rational Choice Marxism and Postmodern Feminism: Towards a More Meaningful Incomprehension&#8221; in Rational Choice Marxism, ed. Terrell Carver and Paul Thomas, Pennsylvania University Press, 1995, p.301.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Krill</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/comment-page-1/#comment-213761</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Krill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 06:18:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/#comment-213761</guid>
		<description>Of course we&#039;re scruffy. Scruffy is the essence of free thought. ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Of course we&#8217;re scruffy. Scruffy is the essence of free thought. ;-)</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Hurka</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/comment-page-1/#comment-213749</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Hurka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 01:37:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/14/are-philosophers-scruffy/#comment-213749</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t it a fact that male professors who wear ties get better student evaluations? I&#039;m sure Harry gets great ones.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Isn&#8217;t it a fact that male professors who wear ties get better student evaluations? I&#8217;m sure Harry gets great ones.</p>
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