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	<title>Comments on: Bad teeth</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: eudoxis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/comment-page-2/#comment-214461</link>
		<dc:creator>eudoxis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Oct 2007 03:43:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/#comment-214461</guid>
		<description>&quot;eudoxis, going to the CDC reports, it’s clear that it should be “adults over 65”.

Professor Quiggin, one would reasonably expect that to be the case.  However, the numbers graphed by the NYT for &#039;88-&#039;94 (31%)and &#039;99-&#039;02 (25%) are the numbers cited in the 2005 CDC report for adults 60 and over.  The number graphed for &#039;03-&#039;04 (27%) is cited in the 2007 CDC report for adults 65 and over.  They are looking at the same cohort and excluding the younger, healthier seniors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;eudoxis, going to the <span class="caps">CDC</span> reports, it&#8217;s clear that it should be &#8220;adults over 65&#8221;.</p>

	<p>Professor Quiggin, one would reasonably expect that to be the case.  However, the numbers graphed by the <span class="caps">NYT</span> for &#8216;88-&#8217;94 (31%)and &#8216;99-&#8217;02 (25%) are the numbers cited in the 2005 <span class="caps">CDC</span> report for adults 60 and over.  The number graphed for &#8216;03-&#8217;04 (27%) is cited in the 2007 <span class="caps">CDC</span> report for adults 65 and over.  They are looking at the same cohort and excluding the younger, healthier seniors.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/comment-page-2/#comment-214321</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 02:16:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/#comment-214321</guid>
		<description>eudoxis, going to the CDC reports, it&#039;s clear that it should be &quot;adults over 65&quot;. Otherwise, I think the correct interpretation is that CDC was reporting improvements until recently, but the latest data does not support this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>eudoxis, going to the <span class="caps">CDC</span> reports, it&#8217;s clear that it should be &#8220;adults over 65&#8221;. Otherwise, I think the correct interpretation is that <span class="caps">CDC</span> was reporting improvements until recently, but the latest data does not support this.</p>
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		<title>By: SG</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/comment-page-2/#comment-214319</link>
		<dc:creator>SG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 01:55:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/#comment-214319</guid>
		<description>nick, they are even soaring in hobart.

When house prices are soaring in hobart, the world has gone badly wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>nick, they are even soaring in hobart.</p>

	<p>When house prices are soaring in hobart, the world has gone badly wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/comment-page-2/#comment-214189</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 14:56:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/#comment-214189</guid>
		<description>sg, #60:

Are home prices in Australia overinflated across the board, or only in particular markets?

FWIW, the current Atlantic Monthly has an interesting comparison of different markets in the United States.  Apparently, availability and price of housing doesn&#039;t depend solely on pushing out into distant suburbs:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200711/housing</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>sg, #60:</p>

	<p>Are home prices in Australia overinflated across the board, or only in particular markets?</p>

	<p><span class="caps">FWIW</span>, the current Atlantic Monthly has an interesting comparison of different markets in the United States.  Apparently, availability and price of housing doesn&#8217;t depend solely on pushing out into distant suburbs:</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200711/housing" rel="nofollow">http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200711/housing</a></p>
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		<title>By: novakant</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/comment-page-2/#comment-214152</link>
		<dc:creator>novakant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 08:03:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/#comment-214152</guid>
		<description>I think one factor that should be taken into account more is savings. When we talk about the size of average person&#039;s house or car, we need to know how much of it he actually owns and how much is owned by the bank. I&#039;m still amazed how people in the UK have no qualms juggling loans, credit cards and mortgages and from what I hear it&#039;s not much different in the US. It seems to work fine for now and actually be better for the economy than people behaving more conservatively in this regard, but I always think that one day the whole system will crash spectacularly and a good chunk of the so-called middle class will be left with nothing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think one factor that should be taken into account more is savings. When we talk about the size of average person&#8217;s house or car, we need to know how much of it he actually owns and how much is owned by the bank. I&#8217;m still amazed how people in the UK have no qualms juggling loans, credit cards and mortgages and from what I hear it&#8217;s not much different in the US. It seems to work fine for now and actually be better for the economy than people behaving more conservatively in this regard, but I always think that one day the whole system will crash spectacularly and a good chunk of the so-called middle class will be left with nothing.</p>
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		<title>By: eudoxis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/comment-page-2/#comment-214138</link>
		<dc:creator>eudoxis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 05:50:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/#comment-214138</guid>
		<description>The New York Times reports in a graph that nearly 30% of adults in the US have no teeth.  Does anyone read this material before it goes to print?  The rest of the article is misleading, though not as egregiously.  The author shows a datapoint on a trend, proceeds to call it a trend and has a host of reasons for it. 
The CDC reports that, overall, dental health in the US is still improving.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The New York Times reports in a graph that nearly 30% of adults in the US have no teeth.  Does anyone read this material before it goes to print?  The rest of the article is misleading, though not as egregiously.  The author shows a datapoint on a trend, proceeds to call it a trend and has a host of reasons for it.<br />
The <span class="caps">CDC</span> reports that, overall, dental health in the US is still improving.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/comment-page-2/#comment-214136</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 04:39:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/#comment-214136</guid>
		<description>So-- if I&#039;ve got this argument right-- US household income hasn&#039;t gone up much since the 1970s, but Americans have more and cooler stuff; that&#039;s partly because working-age Americans have smaller families (meaning more money to spend on stuff per person), and partly because the stuff is cheaper (or delivers more fun for the same real price). But education and health care and, in many markets, housing are way more expensive, raising the question of how the households with stagnant real incomes can afford all the cool stuff plus all the expensive education and health care.

Isn&#039;t part of the answer that we are saving much less, and borrowing more? What&#039;s happened to household savings since the 1970s? And aren&#039;t people now far more likely to borrow against the value of their homes?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>So&#8212;if I&#8217;ve got this argument right&#8212;US household income hasn&#8217;t gone up much since the 1970s, but Americans have more and cooler stuff; that&#8217;s partly because working-age Americans have smaller families (meaning more money to spend on stuff per person), and partly because the stuff is cheaper (or delivers more fun for the same real price). But education and health care and, in many markets, housing are way more expensive, raising the question of how the households with stagnant real incomes can afford all the cool stuff plus all the expensive education and health care.</p>

	<p>Isn&#8217;t part of the answer that we are saving much less, and borrowing more? What&#8217;s happened to household savings since the 1970s? And aren&#8217;t people now far more likely to borrow against the value of their homes?</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/comment-page-2/#comment-214133</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 04:08:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/#comment-214133</guid>
		<description>stostosto, the census publication you link says:

&quot;The Current Population Survey (CPS) collects income data for people Data on income collected in the ASEC by the U.S. Census Bureau cover money income received (exclusive of certain money receipts such as capital gains) before payments for personal income taxes, social security, union dues, Medicare deductions, etc. Therefore, money income does not reflect the fact that some families receive noncash benefits, such as food stamps, health benefits, subsidized housing, and goods produced and consumed on the farm. In addition, money income does not reflect the fact that noncash benefits are also received by some nonfarm residents, which often take the form of the use of business transportation and facilities, full or partial payments by business for retirement programs, medical and educational expenses, etc. Data users should consider these elements when comparing income levels.&quot;  

The median income numbers you cite from this report exclude noncash income, including, relevantly, increased expenditures on employer-sponsored health insurance.  If health care insurance costs to employers have grown faster than inflation (which I believe is the case), then the median income number is misleading in a sense--an increasing percentage of the total compensation package (health insurance) is ignored.  There may be good reasons for ignoring this in the ordinary circumstance (I confess I don&#039;t see it, given the size of the benefits involved), but in this context, where we&#039;re discussing income and health care, it seems entirely relevant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>stostosto, the census publication you link says:</p>

	<p>&#8220;The Current Population Survey (CPS) collects income data for people Data on income collected in the <span class="caps">ASEC</span> by the U.S. Census Bureau cover money income received (exclusive of certain money receipts such as capital gains) before payments for personal income taxes, social security, union dues, Medicare deductions, etc. Therefore, money income does not reflect the fact that some families receive noncash benefits, such as food stamps, health benefits, subsidized housing, and goods produced and consumed on the farm. In addition, money income does not reflect the fact that noncash benefits are also received by some nonfarm residents, which often take the form of the use of business transportation and facilities, full or partial payments by business for retirement programs, medical and educational expenses, etc. Data users should consider these elements when comparing income levels.&#8221;</p>

	<p>The median income numbers you cite from this report exclude noncash income, including, relevantly, increased expenditures on employer-sponsored health insurance.  If health care insurance costs to employers have grown faster than inflation (which I believe is the case), then the median income number is misleading in a sense&#8212;an increasing percentage of the total compensation package (health insurance) is ignored.  There may be good reasons for ignoring this in the ordinary circumstance (I confess I don&#8217;t see it, given the size of the benefits involved), but in this context, where we&#8217;re discussing income and health care, it seems entirely relevant.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Wilder</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/comment-page-2/#comment-214121</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Wilder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 00:45:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/#comment-214121</guid>
		<description>&quot;Overall, it seems reasonable to put down non-critical health care as a likely example of declining real median consumption in the US.&quot;

Given the vast increase in the proportion of total resources devoted to health care in the U.S. -- not exceeding 15% of GDP, more than in any other developed country -- a decline in median consumption of &quot;non-critical&quot; health care would be a bizarre and ironic development.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Overall, it seems reasonable to put down non-critical health care as a likely example of declining real median consumption in the US.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Given the vast increase in the proportion of total resources devoted to health care in the U.S.&#8212;not exceeding 15% of <span class="caps">GDP</span>, more than in any other developed country&#8212;a decline in median consumption of &#8220;non-critical&#8221; health care would be a bizarre and ironic development.</p>
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		<title>By: SG</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/comment-page-2/#comment-214116</link>
		<dc:creator>SG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:50:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/#comment-214116</guid>
		<description>The housing-space comparisons are a furphy too. Sure houses are bigger and &quot;better&quot; now,  but to my mind that&#039;s not the issue. The issue is that they are relatively less affordable. In Australia, the &quot;average&quot; house has increased from 3 times the average income to 6; in the UK banks are now routinely offering mortgages for 7 times the average wage, not 3. This is not because people want bigger houses, but because  housing market speculation has pushed the cost of housing beyond first market entrants. 

This is not a mystery either, or some confection of arcane statistics. The debate on this has been raging for 5 years now in Australia, and probably just as long in the UK. In Australia we have had inquiries into how this can  be fixed.

Basically, if you have asset-poor parents, unless you can find some holy grail job (or partner) worth more than $100,000 a year, you can wait till you turn 40 to buy a house. Basic goods and services are consuming a large portion of your disposable income, rent is cutting off a lot of the rest, and housing speculation is driving you further and further away from the city while you scrimp and save to find the deposit on a shrinking house. And the &quot;free-market&quot; solution? Release more land on the fringes of already hideously low-density cities, to fuel further speculation while simultaneously telling the poor that if they want to buy a house they can fuck off into the desert. 

But once you get it, and mortgage yourself to the hilt forever, you can have a damn fine PC in there for peanuts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The housing-space comparisons are a furphy too. Sure houses are bigger and &#8220;better&#8221; now,  but to my mind that&#8217;s not the issue. The issue is that they are relatively less affordable. In Australia, the &#8220;average&#8221; house has increased from 3 times the average income to 6; in the UK banks are now routinely offering mortgages for 7 times the average wage, not 3. This is not because people want bigger houses, but because  housing market speculation has pushed the cost of housing beyond first market entrants.</p>

	<p>This is not a mystery either, or some confection of arcane statistics. The debate on this has been raging for 5 years now in Australia, and probably just as long in the UK. In Australia we have had inquiries into how this can  be fixed.</p>

	<p>Basically, if you have asset-poor parents, unless you can find some holy grail job (or partner) worth more than $100,000 a year, you can wait till you turn 40 to buy a house. Basic goods and services are consuming a large portion of your disposable income, rent is cutting off a lot of the rest, and housing speculation is driving you further and further away from the city while you scrimp and save to find the deposit on a shrinking house. And the &#8220;free-market&#8221; solution? Release more land on the fringes of already hideously low-density cities, to fuel further speculation while simultaneously telling the poor that if they want to buy a house they can fuck off into the desert.</p>

	<p>But once you get it, and mortgage yourself to the hilt forever, you can have a damn fine PC in there for peanuts.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/comment-page-2/#comment-214112</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:30:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/#comment-214112</guid>
		<description>Roger, you miss the point.  I know who lobbies for the resrictions, but who actually implements the restrictions?  Do the restrictions on the practice of dentistry not exist in progressive strongholds like CA, NY, MA?  Also, the story on dental schools is a bit more complicated, isn&#039;t it? I mean, at one point private schools (e.g., Northwestern) made a decision that they couldn&#039;t compete financially with public dental schools, because public dental schools received state support for their clinics, while private schools did not.  As a (partial) consequence, public school tuitions were lower and private schools found it hard to compete for students.  (I say partial because obviously a school with Northwestern&#039;s extensive financial resources had a choice as to how to respond.) My understanding is that the round of closings is over, and that there are dental schools that will soon open. And application volume apparently is up 65% since 2001 (according to the American Dental Education Association), so apparently people do respond to incentives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Roger, you miss the point.  I know who lobbies for the resrictions, but who actually implements the restrictions?  Do the restrictions on the practice of dentistry not exist in progressive strongholds like CA, NY, MA?  Also, the story on dental schools is a bit more complicated, isn&#8217;t it? I mean, at one point private schools (e.g., Northwestern) made a decision that they couldn&#8217;t compete financially with public dental schools, because public dental schools received state support for their clinics, while private schools did not.  As a (partial) consequence, public school tuitions were lower and private schools found it hard to compete for students.  (I say partial because obviously a school with Northwestern&#8217;s extensive financial resources had a choice as to how to respond.) My understanding is that the round of closings is over, and that there are dental schools that will soon open. And application volume apparently is up 65% since 2001 (according to the American Dental Education Association), so apparently people do respond to incentives.</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian Holsclaw</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/comment-page-2/#comment-214109</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian Holsclaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:08:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/#comment-214109</guid>
		<description>&quot;Some people here speculate that cheaper prices on this and that, discounts, free downloads etc. may allow for an increasing standard of living in spite of stagnant incomes. But the CPI adjustment is designed to take care of that.&quot;

Not really.  By the time a good enters the CPI it has already seen an enormous price drop from luxury good to common good.  If you don&#039;t think that the access to personal computers for example is a rather large improvement in people&#039;s lives....I&#039;m rather surprised to find you writing in the comments to a blog.  

Health care improvements aren&#039;t well tracked at all.  As I said above your average worker wouldn&#039;t let you pay them to force them to take only 1970s level medical technology.  That fact is tracked as an INCREASE in the cost of medical care, when in fact for any static level of medical care over time you would see a decrease in price.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Some people here speculate that cheaper prices on this and that, discounts, free downloads etc. may allow for an increasing standard of living in spite of stagnant incomes. But the <span class="caps">CPI</span> adjustment is designed to take care of that.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Not really.  By the time a good enters the <span class="caps">CPI</span> it has already seen an enormous price drop from luxury good to common good.  If you don&#8217;t think that the access to personal computers for example is a rather large improvement in people&#8217;s lives&#8230;.I&#8217;m rather surprised to find you writing in the comments to a blog.</p>

	<p>Health care improvements aren&#8217;t well tracked at all.  As I said above your average worker wouldn&#8217;t let you pay them to force them to take only 1970s level medical technology.  That fact is tracked as an <span class="caps">INCREASE</span> in the cost of medical care, when in fact for any static level of medical care over time you would see a decrease in price.</p>
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		<title>By: Crooked Timber &#187; &#187; Overworked?</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/comment-page-2/#comment-214108</link>
		<dc:creator>Crooked Timber &#187; &#187; Overworked?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:06:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/#comment-214108</guid>
		<description>[...] up my post on consumption and living standards in the US, there was a fair bit of discussion of what&#8217;s been happening to leisure. Juliet Schor and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] up my post on consumption and living standards in the US, there was a fair bit of discussion of what&#8217;s been happening to leisure. Juliet Schor and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: stostosto</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/comment-page-2/#comment-214104</link>
		<dc:creator>stostosto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 21:04:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/#comment-214104</guid>
		<description>Oh, and there&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.census.gov/prod/2007pubs/p60-233.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;a 2007 update&lt;/a&gt; on the Census Bureau report I linked above. 

It says in the introduction: &quot;Real median household income increased between 2005 and 2006 for the second consecutive year.&quot; 

But it also has this: 

&quot;Earnings represent the largest component of income. Earnings trends and income trends are not perfectly correlated. While median household income in 2006 rose by 0.7 percent, the real median earnings of both men and women who worked full-time, year-round declined between 2005 and 2006 (Table 1 and Figure 2). The median earnings of men declined 1.1 percent to $42,261. The median earnings of women declined 1.2 percent to $32,515. This is the third consecutive year that men and women experienced a decline in earnings.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oh, and there&#8217;s <a href="http://www.census.gov/prod/2007pubs/p60-233.pdf" rel="nofollow">a 2007 update</a> on the Census Bureau report I linked above.</p>

	<p>It says in the introduction: &#8220;Real median household income increased between 2005 and 2006 for the second consecutive year.&#8221;</p>

	<p>But it also has this:</p>

	<p>&#8220;Earnings represent the largest component of income. Earnings trends and income trends are not perfectly correlated. While median household income in 2006 rose by 0.7 percent, the real median earnings of both men and women who worked full-time, year-round declined between 2005 and 2006 (Table 1 and Figure 2). The median earnings of men declined 1.1 percent to $42,261. The median earnings of women declined 1.2 percent to $32,515. This is the third consecutive year that men and women experienced a decline in earnings.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/comment-page-2/#comment-214103</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 21:00:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/17/bad-teeth/#comment-214103</guid>
		<description>As regards hours, you need to disaggregate by gender, since women&#039;s participation has changed so much and they are far more likely to work full time. Here are &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2006/oct/wk1/art03.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;some BLS stats&lt;/a&gt;.

Cross-section to be sure, but it doesn&#039;t look as if employed men have improved on the 1960s norm of 40 hours per work and of course women are doing more paid work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>As regards hours, you need to disaggregate by gender, since women&#8217;s participation has changed so much and they are far more likely to work full time. Here are <a href="http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2006/oct/wk1/art03.htm" rel="nofollow">some <span class="caps">BLS</span> stats</a>.</p>

	<p>Cross-section to be sure, but it doesn&#8217;t look as if employed men have improved on the 1960s norm of 40 hours per work and of course women are doing more paid work.</p>
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