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	<title>Comments on: The Demise of Liberal Internationalism</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Ginkgo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-214717</link>
		<dc:creator>Ginkgo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 22:46:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/#comment-214717</guid>
		<description>&quot;The US’s global system of military bases will have to be substantially retrenched, because of local political hostility if nothing else.&quot;

God, I wish! Remember the hilarious yammering and caterwauling from that trade union group in Germany at the really big drawdown on bases? Then there was the sound of jaw-dropping when the US actually pulled out of bases in the Philippines, often from the very people who had been calling for it. Both moves were long overdue and smashing those iron rice bowl was a side benefit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;The US&#8217;s global system of military bases will have to be substantially retrenched, because of local political hostility if nothing else.&#8221;</p>

	<p>God, I wish! Remember the hilarious yammering and caterwauling from that trade union group in Germany at the really big drawdown on bases? Then there was the sound of jaw-dropping when the US actually pulled out of bases in the Philippines, often from the very people who had been calling for it. Both moves were long overdue and smashing those iron rice bowl was a side benefit.</p>
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		<title>By: jack strocchi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-214438</link>
		<dc:creator>jack strocchi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 22:02:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/#comment-214438</guid>
		<description>There is little doubt that US citizens and its institutional leaders will have much appetite for international military adventures in the short to medium term. It is just not practical given the current stock of martial and fiscal resources.

For a start these peace-keeping ventures place a heavy demand on man-power. The US military is now stretched to the limit and needs every man on deck for core tasks.

Taxes will have to be raised to repay the national debt. Who wants to blow money away helping foreigners who repay the kindness with anti-Americanism?

The US&#039;s global system of military bases will have to be substantially retrenched, because of local political hostility if nothing else. About the only place where the US is welcome these days is AUS.

Also, the US finds its sovereignty increasingly compromised by the illegal trade in workers and drugs coming from South AMerica. The political pressure is on to stem that rising tide, using whatever military resources are at the disposal of national authority.

Invade the World is unpopular abroad. Invite the World is unpopular at home. So I see the US military &quot;coming home&quot; big time in the medium term.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There is little doubt that US citizens and its institutional leaders will have much appetite for international military adventures in the short to medium term. It is just not practical given the current stock of martial and fiscal resources.</p>

	<p>For a start these peace-keeping ventures place a heavy demand on man-power. The US military is now stretched to the limit and needs every man on deck for core tasks.</p>

	<p>Taxes will have to be raised to repay the national debt. Who wants to blow money away helping foreigners who repay the kindness with anti-Americanism?</p>

	<p>The US&#8217;s global system of military bases will have to be substantially retrenched, because of local political hostility if nothing else. About the only place where the US is welcome these days is <span class="caps">AUS</span>.</p>

	<p>Also, the US finds its sovereignty increasingly compromised by the illegal trade in workers and drugs coming from South AMerica. The political pressure is on to stem that rising tide, using whatever military resources are at the disposal of national authority.</p>

	<p>Invade the World is unpopular abroad. Invite the World is unpopular at home. So I see the US military &#8220;coming home&#8221; big time in the medium term.</p>
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		<title>By: jack strocchi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-214437</link>
		<dc:creator>jack strocchi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 22:00:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/#comment-214437</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cceia.org/resources/transcripts/120.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Walter Russel Mead&lt;/a&gt; types US foreign policy into four classes:

 - Jeffersonian: idealist nationalism,
 - Wilsonian: idealist internationalism
 - Hamiltonian: realist internationalism
 - Jacksonian: realist nationalism

Read argued that US foreign policy went through cycles where one or some combination of these types had predominance.

Bush&#039;s foreign policy is a strange mixture of Wilsonian idealist internationalism and Jacksonian realist nationalism. (Krauthammer has dubbed it &quot;democratic realism&quot;). 

The Wilsonian dream of promoting liberal democracy in Mesopotamia has turned into a flop. So I see Republicans getting twice shy with that bug.

I dont see the Democrats embracing Wilsonianism anytime soon. At most they will probably push towards embracing some descendant of Kyoto. Not exactly the kind of move to set pulses racing.

Meanwhile the Republicans will move towards their default Hamiltonian position: the use of US power abroad to advance US corporate interests at home. Political value for money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><a href="http://www.cceia.org/resources/transcripts/120.html" rel="nofollow">Walter Russel Mead</a> types US foreign policy into four classes:</p>
 &#8211; Jeffersonian: idealist nationalism, &#8211; Wilsonian: idealist internationalism &#8211; Hamiltonian: realist internationalism &#8211; Jacksonian: realist nationalism

	<p>Read argued that US foreign policy went through cycles where one or some combination of these types had predominance.</p>

	<p>Bush&#8217;s foreign policy is a strange mixture of Wilsonian idealist internationalism and Jacksonian realist nationalism. (Krauthammer has dubbed it &#8220;democratic realism&#8221;).</p>

	<p>The Wilsonian dream of promoting liberal democracy in Mesopotamia has turned into a flop. So I see Republicans getting twice shy with that bug.</p>

	<p>I dont see the Democrats embracing Wilsonianism anytime soon. At most they will probably push towards embracing some descendant of Kyoto. Not exactly the kind of move to set pulses racing.</p>

	<p>Meanwhile the Republicans will move towards their default Hamiltonian position: the use of US power abroad to advance US corporate interests at home. Political value for money.</p>
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		<title>By: jack strocchi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-214433</link>
		<dc:creator>jack strocchi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 21:41:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/#comment-214433</guid>
		<description>It is unlikely that other states not part of the British EMpire would have much interest in liberal internationalism. This movement was anchored in religious or quasi-religious sentiment.

Liberal internationalism of the Wilsonian kind has had a strong following in the US because of the influence of Yankee Quakers and the like. You could say that the War between the States over slavery was its test run.

Even the formation of the UN was a liberal internationalist idea. It came out of the Four Freedoms cooked up by Churchill (1/2 American) and Rooseveldt. Churchill was quite clear that the UN was bascially the Platonic form of the British Empire.

I dont see the PRC much interested in strategic do-goodism. The communists have done their utmost to extinguish that kind of thinking from the Chinese culture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It is unlikely that other states not part of the British EMpire would have much interest in liberal internationalism. This movement was anchored in religious or quasi-religious sentiment.</p>

	<p>Liberal internationalism of the Wilsonian kind has had a strong following in the US because of the influence of Yankee Quakers and the like. You could say that the War between the States over slavery was its test run.</p>

	<p>Even the formation of the UN was a liberal internationalist idea. It came out of the Four Freedoms cooked up by Churchill (1/2 American) and Rooseveldt. Churchill was quite clear that the UN was bascially the Platonic form of the British Empire.</p>

	<p>I dont see the <span class="caps">PRC</span> much interested in strategic do-goodism. The communists have done their utmost to extinguish that kind of thinking from the Chinese culture.</p>
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		<title>By: jack strocchi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-214431</link>
		<dc:creator>jack strocchi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 21:41:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/#comment-214431</guid>
		<description>Liberal internationalism will work well so long as the US is the world&#039;s supreme superpower and has surplus power to dedicate towards humanitarian causes eg Bosnia, Timor etc.

But once the PRC catches up to the US it is more doubtful that the superpowers will want to allocate strategic resources for good deeds. They will be more interested in maintaining the edge on their rivals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Liberal internationalism will work well so long as the US is the world&#8217;s supreme superpower and has surplus power to dedicate towards humanitarian causes eg Bosnia, Timor etc.</p>

	<p>But once the <span class="caps">PRC</span> catches up to the US it is more doubtful that the superpowers will want to allocate strategic resources for good deeds. They will be more interested in maintaining the edge on their rivals.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin James</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-214236</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 18:50:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/#comment-214236</guid>
		<description>lev,

I agree with your analysis except for the part about  them not giving voters what they want.  I would cite Sen. Lieberman as an example. 

An independent that supports the war beats a &quot;True Democrat&quot; that wants to withdraw above all else in most statewide votes.

Your beef should be with the average voter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>lev,</p>

	<p>I agree with your analysis except for the part about  them not giving voters what they want.  I would cite Sen. Lieberman as an example.</p>

	<p>An independent that supports the war beats a &#8220;True Democrat&#8221; that wants to withdraw above all else in most statewide votes.</p>

	<p>Your beef should be with the average voter.</p>
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		<title>By: aaron</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-214233</link>
		<dc:creator>aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 18:39:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/#comment-214233</guid>
		<description>Clinton&#039;s foreign policy was the closest thing we&#039;ve had to liberal internationalism, but it mostly consisted of postponing problems, rather than actually solving them.  This is what happens when your foreign policy consists of listening to the UN and encouraging freer markets around the world.  
So I suppose Clinton&#039;s presidency was the halcyon period of liberal internationalism, but there was definitely some room for improvement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Clinton&#8217;s foreign policy was the closest thing we&#8217;ve had to liberal internationalism, but it mostly consisted of postponing problems, rather than actually solving them.  This is what happens when your foreign policy consists of listening to the UN and encouraging freer markets around the world.<br />
So I suppose Clinton&#8217;s presidency was the halcyon period of liberal internationalism, but there was definitely some room for improvement.</p>
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		<title>By: aaron</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-214229</link>
		<dc:creator>aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 18:33:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/#comment-214229</guid>
		<description>lev - wasn&#039;t there just a conflict between the Dems and Bush over funding? (you may have read about it, it was that conflict where the dems insisted on tacking a concrete withdrawal date onto their funding bill).  Eventually, after a protracted battle, the Dems gave way, although winning some concessions in the process (in my opinion, this was the right decision, as they had no chance to actually win that battle).  So, good as your solution is, it&#039;s been tried.  The truth is that we&#039;re not going to pull out of Iraq while Bush is in the White House.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>lev &#8211; wasn&#8217;t there just a conflict between the Dems and Bush over funding? (you may have read about it, it was that conflict where the dems insisted on tacking a concrete withdrawal date onto their funding bill).  Eventually, after a protracted battle, the Dems gave way, although winning some concessions in the process (in my opinion, this was the right decision, as they had no chance to actually win that battle).  So, good as your solution is, it&#8217;s been tried.  The truth is that we&#8217;re not going to pull out of Iraq while Bush is in the White House.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Higgins</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-214214</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Higgins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 17:20:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/#comment-214214</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;The halcyon era of liberal internationalism is over...&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

When was this halcyon period meant to have taken place?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8220;The halcyon era of liberal internationalism is over&#8230;&#8221;</i></p>

	<p>When was this halcyon period meant to have taken place?</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian Holsclaw</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-214203</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian Holsclaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 16:15:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/#comment-214203</guid>
		<description>&quot; as long as it is to support the UN in upholding international law. &quot;

This is one of those things that almost anyone will support in theory, because it is fuzzy enough to mean almost anything.  The question is: what does it mean in practice?  You could get a large majority in the US to agree to &quot;an appropriate level of abortion restrictions when the fetus is developed enough&quot; but the definitions of &quot;appropriate&quot; and &quot;enough&quot; vary wildly such as to make abortion a rather polarized subject.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8221; as long as it is to support the UN in upholding international law. &#8221;</p>

	<p>This is one of those things that almost anyone will support in theory, because it is fuzzy enough to mean almost anything.  The question is: what does it mean in practice?  You could get a large majority in the US to agree to &#8220;an appropriate level of abortion restrictions when the fetus is developed enough&#8221; but the definitions of &#8220;appropriate&#8221; and &#8220;enough&#8221; vary wildly such as to make abortion a rather polarized subject.</p>
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		<title>By: Guano</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-214167</link>
		<dc:creator>Guano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:31:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/#comment-214167</guid>
		<description>Quo vadis has it exactly right. No US government would risk putting troops in harm&#039;s way unless the mission could be justified by US interests directly. Thus talk of liberal internationalism and humanitarian interventions have a distinctly surreal feeling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Quo vadis has it exactly right. No US government would risk putting troops in harm&#8217;s way unless the mission could be justified by US interests directly. Thus talk of liberal internationalism and humanitarian interventions have a distinctly surreal feeling.</p>
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		<title>By: MFB</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-214146</link>
		<dc:creator>MFB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 06:59:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/#comment-214146</guid>
		<description>Liberal internationalism depended on the United States being the big gorilla. During the Cold War it was the big gorilla in what was quaintly called the Free World, and thus could bully people into doing what it wanted. After the collapse of the USSR it was the big gorilla in the whole world, although it was a little overstretched, but that collapse so demoralised opponents to the US that the US, with a little bribing and schmoozing, could still do what it wanted with outside support.

That consensus is unravelling. It is not, however, being driven by the US. It is being driven by the declining state of the US in the world. The response of conservatives is to blame the system and claim that if only more violence were used everything would be all right. This is their standard response to every problem, and as usual it is wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Liberal internationalism depended on the United States being the big gorilla. During the Cold War it was the big gorilla in what was quaintly called the Free World, and thus could bully people into doing what it wanted. After the collapse of the <span class="caps">USSR</span> it was the big gorilla in the whole world, although it was a little overstretched, but that collapse so demoralised opponents to the US that the US, with a little bribing and schmoozing, could still do what it wanted with outside support.</p>

	<p>That consensus is unravelling. It is not, however, being driven by the US. It is being driven by the declining state of the US in the world. The response of conservatives is to blame the system and claim that if only more violence were used everything would be all right. This is their standard response to every problem, and as usual it is wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Aldous</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-214139</link>
		<dc:creator>Aldous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 06:08:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/#comment-214139</guid>
		<description>&quot;Furthermore, what survey evidence there is suggests that a large majority of Democratic voters do support the use of force – as long as it is to support the UN in upholding international law. You can’t get much more liberal internationalist than that.&quot;

I think that there&#039;s an important question as to whether there are enough liberal internationalist-sympathizers left in the general electorate. There&#039;s a paper in the works from Rick Herrmann (an early version is available &lt;a href=&quot;http://polisci.osu.edu/intranet/rip/herrmann.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; here&lt;/a&gt;) which explores ideology in the American public in relation to foreign policy questions (centered on Iraq). In my understanding the current version of the paper argues that ideological polarization on FP issues has actually solidified, and the results seem to also confirm that liberals continue to be more internationalist than their conservative counterparts. Unfortunately their data is taken from a survey conducted in 2004. Similarly the survey you cite is from 2005. It would be very instructive as to whether the liberal internationalist sentiments of the American electorate have waned since then, because intuitively I would expect that it has. Anyhow, this may be a bit of a non sequitar but I thought the paper was interesting and relevant to this question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Furthermore, what survey evidence there is suggests that a large majority of Democratic voters do support the use of force &#8211; as long as it is to support the UN in upholding international law. You can&#8217;t get much more liberal internationalist than that.&#8221;</p>

	<p>I think that there&#8217;s an important question as to whether there are enough liberal internationalist-sympathizers left in the general electorate. There&#8217;s a paper in the works from Rick Herrmann (an early version is available <a href="http://polisci.osu.edu/intranet/rip/herrmann.pdf" rel="nofollow"> here</a>) which explores ideology in the American public in relation to foreign policy questions (centered on Iraq). In my understanding the current version of the paper argues that ideological polarization on FP issues has actually solidified, and the results seem to also confirm that liberals continue to be more internationalist than their conservative counterparts. Unfortunately their data is taken from a survey conducted in 2004. Similarly the survey you cite is from 2005. It would be very instructive as to whether the liberal internationalist sentiments of the American electorate have waned since then, because intuitively I would expect that it has. Anyhow, this may be a bit of a non sequitar but I thought the paper was interesting and relevant to this question.</p>
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		<title>By: rea</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-214127</link>
		<dc:creator>rea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 02:53:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/#comment-214127</guid>
		<description>Lev:  You remind me of Owen Glendower

&lt;i&gt;GLENDOWER:
I can call spirits from the vasty deep. 

HOTSPUR:
Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them?&lt;/i&gt;

An attempt to defund the Iraq War would be just the beginning of a confrontation between Congress and the Bush adminstration.  You can refuse to pass a supplemental appropriation, but how are you going to enforce it?  The Bush adminstration will say that Congress is infringing on the president&#039;s powers as commander-in-chief, and take the money from elsewhere, all the while complaining that the troops are being stabbed int eh back.

The Democrats don&#039;t have the votes to impeach Bush and Cheney.Nothing less than that will bring the war to an end before the expiration of buhs&#039;s term.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Lev:  You remind me of Owen Glendower</p>

	<p><i><span class="caps">GLENDOWER</span>:<br />
I can call spirits from the vasty deep.</i></p>

	<p><span class="caps">HOTSPUR</span>:<br />
Why, so can I, or so can any man;<br />
But will they come when you do call for them?</p>

	<p>An attempt to defund the Iraq War would be just the beginning of a confrontation between Congress and the Bush adminstration.  You can refuse to pass a supplemental appropriation, but how are you going to enforce it?  The Bush adminstration will say that Congress is infringing on the president&#8217;s powers as commander-in-chief, and take the money from elsewhere, all the while complaining that the troops are being stabbed int eh back.</p>

	<p>The Democrats don&#8217;t have the votes to impeach Bush and Cheney.Nothing less than that will bring the war to an end before the expiration of buhs&#8217;s term.</p>
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		<title>By: Quo Vadis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-214125</link>
		<dc:creator>Quo Vadis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 02:06:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/18/the-demise-of-liberal-internationalism/#comment-214125</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;a large majority of Democratic voters do support the use of force – as long as it is to support the UN in upholding international law.&lt;/i&gt;

Let’s inject a bit of reality into this discussion:  The US military will never become the enforcement arm of the UN.  No US government would risk placing troops in harms way unless the mission could be justified by US interests directly.  The mission must be sold to the American public and few Americans are sufficiently enamored of international law and international institutions to fill body bags and incur other war costs solely in support of international law.  Of course, it doesn’t look like the people of any other country are willing to take on the responsibility either.  Who knows, maybe the Chinese will be different – or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>a large majority of Democratic voters do support the use of force &#8211; as long as it is to support the UN in upholding international law.</i></p>

	<p>Let&#8217;s inject a bit of reality into this discussion:  The US military will never become the enforcement arm of the UN.  No US government would risk placing troops in harms way unless the mission could be justified by US interests directly.  The mission must be sold to the American public and few Americans are sufficiently enamored of international law and international institutions to fill body bags and incur other war costs solely in support of international law.  Of course, it doesn&#8217;t look like the people of any other country are willing to take on the responsibility either.  Who knows, maybe the Chinese will be different &#8211; or not.</p>
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