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	<title>Comments on: The elimination of bigotry is a perfectly legitimate aim of government</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:24:44 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Mitchell Young</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/comment-page-3/#comment-215888</link>
		<dc:creator>Mitchell Young</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:35:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/#comment-215888</guid>
		<description>Unfortunately, Prof. Bertram lives in the UK -- there is no free speech. Differences of opionion on policy matters can be criminalised, as can be statements of scientific findings. In fact, the Labour party and the state-run media (BBC) teamed up to prosecute the head of the BNP for expressing his opinion about Islam. Of course, the decision to put Nick Griffin through two trials (one hung jury, one total equital) had nothing, nothing at all to do with the BNP&#039;s gaining vote share amongst the white working class. Nothing at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Unfortunately, Prof. Bertram lives in the <span class="caps">UK </span>&#8212;there is no free speech. Differences of opionion on policy matters can be criminalised, as can be statements of scientific findings. In fact, the Labour party and the state-run media (BBC) teamed up to prosecute the head of the <span class="caps">BNP</span> for expressing his opinion about Islam. Of course, the decision to put Nick Griffin through two trials (one hung jury, one total equital) had nothing, nothing at all to do with the <span class="caps">BNP</span>&#8217;s gaining vote share amongst the white working class. Nothing at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Bigotry and the Islamic Blogosphere &#171; Ali Eteraz</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/comment-page-3/#comment-215623</link>
		<dc:creator>Bigotry and the Islamic Blogosphere &#171; Ali Eteraz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:09:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/#comment-215623</guid>
		<description>[...] and the Islamic&#160;Blogosphere  Chris Bertram, at Crooked Timber argues that the elimination of bigotry is a perfectly legitimate aim of the government. One of his [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] and the Islamic&nbsp;Blogosphere  Chris Bertram, at Crooked Timber argues that the elimination of bigotry is a perfectly legitimate aim of the government. One of his [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sweating through Fog</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/comment-page-3/#comment-215600</link>
		<dc:creator>Sweating through Fog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Oct 2007 00:49:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/#comment-215600</guid>
		<description>&quot;If particular groups are so stigmatized and marginalized because of hate-speech messages that their members cannot get their voices heard in the public sphere (they may speak, but most people will not listen to people like them) then the freedom and equality of citizens is undermined, and the formal right that those people have to legal, civil and political equality is of lesser value than the formally similar rights of others.&quot;

Hate speech laws aren&#039;t designed to make people listen - they are designed to shut people up. And they are futile for advancing the interests of marginalized people.  I wrote more on this issue in my blog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;If particular groups are so stigmatized and marginalized because of hate-speech messages that their members cannot get their voices heard in the public sphere (they may speak, but most people will not listen to people like them) then the freedom and equality of citizens is undermined, and the formal right that those people have to legal, civil and political equality is of lesser value than the formally similar rights of others.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Hate speech laws aren&#8217;t designed to make people listen &#8211; they are designed to shut people up. And they are futile for advancing the interests of marginalized people.  I wrote more on this issue in my blog.</p>
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		<title>By: jayann</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/comment-page-3/#comment-215570</link>
		<dc:creator>jayann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Oct 2007 17:41:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/#comment-215570</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;“No law means no law.”&lt;/i&gt;

http://www.adultweblaw.com/laws/childporn.htm

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002256----000-.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment#Obscenity</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8220;No law means no law.&#8221;</i></p>

	<p><a href="http://www.adultweblaw.com/laws/childporn.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.adultweblaw.com/laws/childporn.htm</a></p>

	<p><a href="http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002256----000-.html" rel="nofollow">http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002256&#8212;&#8212;000-.html</a></p>

	<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment#Obscenity" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment#Obscenity</a></p>
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		<title>By: courtjester</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/comment-page-3/#comment-215532</link>
		<dc:creator>courtjester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Oct 2007 06:56:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/#comment-215532</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s some hate-speech for you:

&#039;There is a powerful zionist lobby in the US.&#039;

So let&#039;s have some hard-hitting legislation, immediately, while philosophers wrangle with racist science and associated insoluble dilemmas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Here&#8217;s some hate-speech for you:</p>

	<p>&#8216;There is a powerful zionist lobby in the US.&#8217;</p>

	<p>So let&#8217;s have some hard-hitting legislation, immediately, while philosophers wrangle with racist science and associated insoluble dilemmas.</p>
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		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/comment-page-3/#comment-215494</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Oct 2007 22:34:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/#comment-215494</guid>
		<description>But hurting people&#039;s feelings isn&#039;t what is at issue here. No-one proposes protecting people from that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>But hurting people&#8217;s feelings isn&#8217;t what is at issue here. No-one proposes protecting people from that.</p>
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		<title>By: m</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/comment-page-3/#comment-215492</link>
		<dc:creator>m</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Oct 2007 22:32:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/#comment-215492</guid>
		<description>If the concern is harm and we&#039;re committed to equality before the law, perhaps we should argue for legislation banning speech that hurts another individual&#039;s feelings regardless of who they are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If the concern is harm and we&#8217;re committed to equality before the law, perhaps we should argue for legislation banning speech that hurts another individual&#8217;s feelings regardless of who they are.</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/comment-page-3/#comment-215480</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Oct 2007 21:10:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/#comment-215480</guid>
		<description>&quot;Words can never hurt me&quot; is honestly a terribly glib response to the issues being discussed here. In addition to Harry&#039;s last comment (which I completely agree with) there is the point I made at #23, that words can cause harm (even in the most restricted sense) through the agency of third parties, which is the rationale behind laws against incitement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Words can never hurt me&#8221; is honestly a terribly glib response to the issues being discussed here. In addition to Harry&#8217;s last comment (which I completely agree with) there is the point I made at #23, that words can cause harm (even in the most restricted sense) through the agency of third parties, which is the rationale behind laws against incitement.</p>
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		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/comment-page-3/#comment-215474</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Oct 2007 20:31:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/#comment-215474</guid>
		<description>mq -- do you oppose laws against defamation, threats, and slander? 

And, while I agree that it is a good idea to teach people to deal with the hurt that words cause, it is not a good idea to teach that words should never hurt, because it is demonstrably false. An emotionally healthy person will often be hurt by words, and find it more challenging to rise above that than many minor physical assaults. Some speech acts in some circumstances are sufficiently hurtful to an emotionally healthy and reasonable person that they should be prohibited. That is why  we have laws against threats, even when it can be demonstrated after the fact that those threats could not be carried out. Some use of hate speech is relevantly like a threat, and the users and victims know that perfectly well. Figuring out which is not harder than figuring out what acts are threats or what acts constitute slanders.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>mq&#8212;do you oppose laws against defamation, threats, and slander?</p>

	<p>And, while I agree that it is a good idea to teach people to deal with the hurt that words cause, it is not a good idea to teach that words should never hurt, because it is demonstrably false. An emotionally healthy person will often be hurt by words, and find it more challenging to rise above that than many minor physical assaults. Some speech acts in some circumstances are sufficiently hurtful to an emotionally healthy and reasonable person that they should be prohibited. That is why  we have laws against threats, even when it can be demonstrated after the fact that those threats could not be carried out. Some use of hate speech is relevantly like a threat, and the users and victims know that perfectly well. Figuring out which is not harder than figuring out what acts are threats or what acts constitute slanders.</p>
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		<title>By: mq</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/comment-page-3/#comment-215439</link>
		<dc:creator>mq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Oct 2007 17:51:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/#comment-215439</guid>
		<description>&quot;words can never hurt me&quot; is the core of the issue, though. One can reasonably learn to rise above words in a way that one cannot rise above a punch in the face. Asking adults to learn this skill is very valuable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;words can never hurt me&#8221; is the core of the issue, though. One can reasonably learn to rise above words in a way that one cannot rise above a punch in the face. Asking adults to learn this skill is very valuable.</p>
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		<title>By: Knemon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/comment-page-3/#comment-215385</link>
		<dc:creator>Knemon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Oct 2007 05:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/#comment-215385</guid>
		<description>&quot;No law means *no law*.&quot;

- Justice Black</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;No law means <strong>no law</strong>.&#8221;</p>
 &#8211; Justice Black
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		<title>By: Nat</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/comment-page-3/#comment-215354</link>
		<dc:creator>Nat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Oct 2007 22:36:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/#comment-215354</guid>
		<description>[aeiou] Liberals think that hate speech is absolutely fine just so long as it&#039;s directed against the right people -- the ones who deserve it. Whites, men, heteros, people who disagree with liberals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Lbrls thnk tht ht spch s bsltly fn jst s lng s t&#8217;s drctd gnst th rght ppl&#8212;th ns wh dsrv t. Whts, mn, htrs, ppl wh dsgr wth lbrls.</p>
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		<title>By: PSP</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/comment-page-3/#comment-215352</link>
		<dc:creator>PSP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Oct 2007 22:32:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/#comment-215352</guid>
		<description>If anyone were idiotic enough to go forward with this, about two and a half minutes later there would be a prosecution of someone complaining about CEO salaries as classist hate speech.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If anyone were idiotic enough to go forward with this, about two and a half minutes later there would be a prosecution of someone complaining about <span class="caps">CEO</span> salaries as classist hate speech.</p>
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		<title>By: Planeshift</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/comment-page-3/#comment-215313</link>
		<dc:creator>Planeshift</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Oct 2007 17:12:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/#comment-215313</guid>
		<description>Oops, ignore last sentence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oops, ignore last sentence.</p>
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		<title>By: Planeshift</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/comment-page-3/#comment-215312</link>
		<dc:creator>Planeshift</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Oct 2007 17:08:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/25/the-elimination-of-bigotry-is-a-perfectly-legitimate-aim-of-government/#comment-215312</guid>
		<description>&quot;Similarly, how would you treat the equivalent of Hutu ‘shockjocks’ in Rwanda? &quot;

Thats probably the toughest test of the &quot;free speech for all&quot; position. It is clear that the hutu power shockjocks are partly responsible for one of the worst crimes against humanity of the 20th century, and without them things are likely to have been far less tragic. 

But in a way it also teaches us something of the nature of crimes against humanity. Far from simply having the ability to prevent the hutu radio stations broadcasting hate speech and choosing not to use it on liberal lines (which is one thing), the Rwandan government of the time was actually funding the radio stations and using them as part of its genocidal plan - which is another thing entirely.

The fact is that genocides and mass discrimination against minorities is rarely the result of groups acting alone whilst their liberal governments turn a blind eye. Governments are often highly involved with the atrocities. I suppose in the hypothetical world where temporary restrictions on free speech can prevent atrocities then I would support it reluctantly (usual caveats of last resort etc) in the same way others have supported the temporary restrictions on speech during times of war (i.e you can&#039;t spread enemy propaganda) - although I don&#039;t agree with them in this case.

However hypotheticals are only partially useful, in the real world such situations rarely occur. Mass levels of violence usually involve governments and elites, and usually can be improved by fewer restrictions on free speech not more. Solutions to racism rarely come from governments but the grassroots. 

In the real world I think there are far more effective and legitimate ways to tackle hate speech; ridicule (frankly there is something pathetic and comical about white supremacists), boycotts, employers firing racists (it doesn&#039;t make sense to be rude to customers), education etc. 

Having said that I fully support making racism an aggravating factor when considering the punishment for criminals, and think it is entirely legitimate for the state to promote anti-racism in schools and public bodies in the same way as it is legitimate to promote good sexual health to combat HIV. But putting people in prison purely for being racist jerks is not a sensible road to go down.   

Having said that I</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Similarly, how would you treat the equivalent of Hutu &#8216;shockjocks&#8217; in Rwanda? &#8221;</p>

	<p>Thats probably the toughest test of the &#8220;free speech for all&#8221; position. It is clear that the hutu power shockjocks are partly responsible for one of the worst crimes against humanity of the 20th century, and without them things are likely to have been far less tragic.</p>

	<p>But in a way it also teaches us something of the nature of crimes against humanity. Far from simply having the ability to prevent the hutu radio stations broadcasting hate speech and choosing not to use it on liberal lines (which is one thing), the Rwandan government of the time was actually funding the radio stations and using them as part of its genocidal plan &#8211; which is another thing entirely.</p>

	<p>The fact is that genocides and mass discrimination against minorities is rarely the result of groups acting alone whilst their liberal governments turn a blind eye. Governments are often highly involved with the atrocities. I suppose in the hypothetical world where temporary restrictions on free speech can prevent atrocities then I would support it reluctantly (usual caveats of last resort etc) in the same way others have supported the temporary restrictions on speech during times of war (i.e you can&#8217;t spread enemy propaganda) &#8211; although I don&#8217;t agree with them in this case.</p>

	<p>However hypotheticals are only partially useful, in the real world such situations rarely occur. Mass levels of violence usually involve governments and elites, and usually can be improved by fewer restrictions on free speech not more. Solutions to racism rarely come from governments but the grassroots.</p>

	<p>In the real world I think there are far more effective and legitimate ways to tackle hate speech; ridicule (frankly there is something pathetic and comical about white supremacists), boycotts, employers firing racists (it doesn&#8217;t make sense to be rude to customers), education etc.</p>

	<p>Having said that I fully support making racism an aggravating factor when considering the punishment for criminals, and think it is entirely legitimate for the state to promote anti-racism in schools and public bodies in the same way as it is legitimate to promote good sexual health to combat <span class="caps">HIV</span>. But putting people in prison purely for being racist jerks is not a sensible road to go down.</p>

	<p>Having said that I</p>
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