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	<title>Comments on: The Immanent Frame</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Badger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/comment-page-2/#comment-217130</link>
		<dc:creator>Badger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 12:30:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/#comment-217130</guid>
		<description>concordemus pacifice quod res ipsa loquitur, et prospere procedamus</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>concordemus pacifice quod res ipsa loquitur, et prospere procedamus</p>
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		<title>By: Thom Brooks</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/comment-page-2/#comment-217126</link>
		<dc:creator>Thom Brooks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 11:45:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/#comment-217126</guid>
		<description>There is no scholasticism on the Public Reason blog, a blog I am proud to contribute to. Why in the world would you think otherwise?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There is no scholasticism on the Public Reason blog, a blog I am proud to contribute to. Why in the world would you think otherwise?</p>
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		<title>By: Badger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/comment-page-2/#comment-217094</link>
		<dc:creator>Badger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 00:23:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/#comment-217094</guid>
		<description>Fair enough.   Maybe so.  I hadn&#039;t been looking at it that way, but you may be right.  Of course you understand my problem is communicating stuff to others, not just understanding my own process as you put it.   I guess I have been assuming that the imaginative side and the conceptual side translate back and forth, but I&#039;m going to have to gnaw on that...   Interesting point, to be sure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Fair enough.   Maybe so.  I hadn&#8217;t been looking at it that way, but you may be right.  Of course you understand my problem is communicating stuff to others, not just understanding my own process as you put it.   I guess I have been assuming that the imaginative side and the conceptual side translate back and forth, but I&#8217;m going to have to gnaw on that&#8230;   Interesting point, to be sure.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Edenbaum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/comment-page-2/#comment-217083</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Edenbaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 23:03:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/#comment-217083</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;the material I have seen on Public Reason and the comments here all seemed to start with the question of the applicability or otherwise of theories in books everyone reads, as opposed to expounding original ideas, and approach of starting from authority reminded me of the methods of medieval scholars,&lt;/blockquote&gt;Scholasticism is a good way to describe it, but at the same time Badger I don&#039;t think new ideas as such are the issue, here or on your blog.  A sympathetic curiosity has allowed you to come to terms with the events in Iraq in a way others have not.  You see the behavior of the insurgents with a clearer eye than most because I think you chose to assume that they were less foreign than many want to think. It&#039;s less about new ideas than a failure of imagination. 

That&#039;s not to say one has to agree with everything you say, with every articulated idea,  but that I agree at least with your process, and the ideas behind that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote>the material I have seen on Public Reason and the comments here all seemed to start with the question of the applicability or otherwise of theories in books everyone reads, as opposed to expounding original ideas, and approach of starting from authority reminded me of the methods of medieval scholars,</blockquote>Scholasticism is a good way to describe it, but at the same time Badger I don&#8217;t think new ideas as such are the issue, here or on your blog.  A sympathetic curiosity has allowed you to come to terms with the events in Iraq in a way others have not.  You see the behavior of the insurgents with a clearer eye than most because I think you chose to assume that they were less foreign than many want to think. It&#8217;s less about new ideas than a failure of imagination.</p>

	<p>That&#8217;s not to say one has to agree with everything you say, with every articulated idea,  but that I agree at least with your process, and the ideas behind that.</p>
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		<title>By: Badger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/comment-page-2/#comment-217082</link>
		<dc:creator>Badger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 22:54:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/#comment-217082</guid>
		<description>He certainly did mess it up, didn&#039;t he.  I&#039;m not that sophisticated, but I don&#039;t see why there aren&#039;t ways to deal with that via IP address and so on, rather than letting people just walk away from the net.  Certainly there&#039;s work involved, and you need to develop a bit of thickness in the skin, which is probably new for  a lot of people, but if you and I can learn to withstand that kind of thing, surely anyone can.  It&#039;s work, but it&#039;s worth it.       

Good of you to ferret out what I was trying to get at.  I&#039;m particularly interested in trying to &quot;elevate&quot; some of the issues that I write about to a plane where people will take them seriously as topics for real thought.  Obviously there are obstacles...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>He certainly did mess it up, didn&#8217;t he.  I&#8217;m not that sophisticated, but I don&#8217;t see why there aren&#8217;t ways to deal with that via IP address and so on, rather than letting people just walk away from the net.  Certainly there&#8217;s work involved, and you need to develop a bit of thickness in the skin, which is probably new for  a lot of people, but if you and I can learn to withstand that kind of thing, surely anyone can.  It&#8217;s work, but it&#8217;s worth it.</p>

	<p>Good of you to ferret out what I was trying to get at.  I&#8217;m particularly interested in trying to &#8220;elevate&#8221; some of the issues that I write about to a plane where people will take them seriously as topics for real thought.  Obviously there are obstacles&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Sam C</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/comment-page-2/#comment-217074</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 21:54:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/#comment-217074</guid>
		<description>Badger - no problem: sorry I snapped at you. I actually agree with you, if I’ve understood you, about the importance of original philosophical thinking, of public conversation which takes that thinking seriously, and of professional philosophers doing their bit in that conversation. I do my best on the last one. I just got pissed off with Walt for messing up the thread, and wasn’t in the state of mind to read your post in the right tone of voice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Badger &#8211; no problem: sorry I snapped at you. I actually agree with you, if I&#8217;ve understood you, about the importance of original philosophical thinking, of public conversation which takes that thinking seriously, and of professional philosophers doing their bit in that conversation. I do my best on the last one. I just got pissed off with Walt for messing up the thread, and wasn&#8217;t in the state of mind to read your post in the right tone of voice.</p>
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		<title>By: Badger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/comment-page-2/#comment-217065</link>
		<dc:creator>Badger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 20:34:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/#comment-217065</guid>
		<description>sam c, yes, of course I agree on those other two points of yours, as anyone would.   On the other remark about books generally, I guess nuance gets lost sometimes, I was mixing together several different ideas going through my mind at the time, including:  (1) I spend a lot of my time reading current stuff in my recently-learned Arabic, so I don&#039;t have time or spare eyesight for a lot of book-reading; (2) the material I have seen on Public Reason and the comments here all seemed to start with the question of the applicability or otherwise of theories in books everyone reads, as opposed to expounding original ideas, and approach of starting from authority reminded me of the methods of medieval scholars, (which is where I have my actual academic training, quite a while ago that is);(3) I have enough to think about with what I put up on my blog, without at the moment feeling the need for extra reading and also (4) I do think the importance of teaching people other languages is undervalued, so that was reflected in my other question.  On your other point, of course I have the greatest respect for the written traditions in all the liberal arts disciplines.   My remark that you refer to was meant in a flip and friendly way, and I am very sorry it didn&#039;t come out that way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>sam c, yes, of course I agree on those other two points of yours, as anyone would.   On the other remark about books generally, I guess nuance gets lost sometimes, I was mixing together several different ideas going through my mind at the time, including:  (1) I spend a lot of my time reading current stuff in my recently-learned Arabic, so I don&#8217;t have time or spare eyesight for a lot of book-reading; (2) the material I have seen on Public Reason and the comments here all seemed to start with the question of the applicability or otherwise of theories in books everyone reads, as opposed to expounding original ideas, and approach of starting from authority reminded me of the methods of medieval scholars, (which is where I have my actual academic training, quite a while ago that is);(3) I have enough to think about with what I put up on my blog, without at the moment feeling the need for extra reading and also (4) I do think the importance of teaching people other languages is undervalued, so that was reflected in my other question.  On your other point, of course I have the greatest respect for the written traditions in all the liberal arts disciplines.   My remark that you refer to was meant in a flip and friendly way, and I am very sorry it didn&#8217;t come out that way.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam C</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/comment-page-2/#comment-217063</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 20:05:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/#comment-217063</guid>
		<description>Walt: there was some snark, but also some worthwhile exchange in this thread... until you joined in. You derailed a conversation I was interested in by acting as though it was a drunken argument, while failing to say anything useful about the issues under discussion: calling anyone who disagrees with you a ‘careerist lickspittle’ does not count as intelligent critique. This makes you look a bit of a knob, and, more importantly, helps confirms the opinion of the many of my colleagues who don&#039;t think it&#039;s worth the bother getting involved in public discourse, especially on the web. I don’t share their opinion, but changing their minds has just got that much harder.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Walt: there was some snark, but also some worthwhile exchange in this thread&#8230; until you joined in. You derailed a conversation I was interested in by acting as though it was a drunken argument, while failing to say anything useful about the issues under discussion: calling anyone who disagrees with you a &#8216;careerist lickspittle&#8217; does not count as intelligent critique. This makes you look a bit of a knob, and, more importantly, helps confirms the opinion of the many of my colleagues who don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s worth the bother getting involved in public discourse, especially on the web. I don&#8217;t share their opinion, but changing their minds has just got that much harder.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/comment-page-2/#comment-217061</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 19:38:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/#comment-217061</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t go away mad, walt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Don&#8217;t go away mad, walt.</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/comment-page-2/#comment-217054</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 18:32:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/#comment-217054</guid>
		<description>No, I do not make comments other than contemptuous personal attacks.  I wait until they are deserved, though.  

Matt: I&#039;m glad to see you share the same careerist values as SCM, and I&#039;m sure that you&#039;ll do well in law school with those values.  Hey, you already have tenure, or you&#039;re going to get it someday, right?  Why do you need to care what anyone else thinks?  It&#039;s like being a made-man in the mob.  Pretty sweet deal you got going for yourself, and now you won&#039;t even have to hear the opinions of anyone outside your little circle.  If that&#039;s not upholding the highest values of John Rawls, I don&#039;t know what is.

Katherine: Academics is not a private activity.  It&#039;s a public one that receives generous public funding.  In some cases, undeserved public funding, apparently.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>No, I do not make comments other than contemptuous personal attacks.  I wait until they are deserved, though.</p>

	<p>Matt: I&#8217;m glad to see you share the same careerist values as <span class="caps">SCM</span>, and I&#8217;m sure that you&#8217;ll do well in law school with those values.  Hey, you already have tenure, or you&#8217;re going to get it someday, right?  Why do you need to care what anyone else thinks?  It&#8217;s like being a made-man in the mob.  Pretty sweet deal you got going for yourself, and now you won&#8217;t even have to hear the opinions of anyone outside your little circle.  If that&#8217;s not upholding the highest values of John Rawls, I don&#8217;t know what is.</p>

	<p>Katherine: Academics is not a private activity.  It&#8217;s a public one that receives generous public funding.  In some cases, undeserved public funding, apparently.</p>
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		<title>By: matt_s</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/comment-page-2/#comment-217040</link>
		<dc:creator>matt_s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 17:22:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/#comment-217040</guid>
		<description>wow.  i can&#039;t believe engels and badger and walt and all y&#039;all piling on simon/scm.

so, maybe the wording of the public reason contributors&#039; policy could have been put a little more diplomatically.  but, seriously - if public reason had been a blog for professional linguists and it was titled &quot;public discourse&quot; or something like that, and it had the same contributors&#039; policy, would you all get ticked off that those without PhD&#039;s couldn&#039;t offer your views on the latest developments in semantics?  

you guys really took the piss out of simon for no good reason and in a very good natured manner, he responded politely and without much rancor, even as you all went about deliberately misinterpreting him.

if anything, your behavior is an advertisement condemning the social skills of people who spend most their time blogging, while simon&#039;s behavior is an advertisement for the capacity of academic philosophers to debate vigorously but respectfully, Colin McGinn and Ted Honderich apparently being high-profile exceptions. (And Leiter, too? But, I like Brian&#039;s blog and think he&#039;s actually pretty fair, so i am not going to be a hater.)

In short, Engels and Badger both make the case, through their obnoxious behavior, for the usefulness of an academic-philosophers-only blog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>wow.  i can&#8217;t believe engels and badger and walt and all y&#8217;all piling on simon/scm.</p>

	<p>so, maybe the wording of the public reason contributors&#8217; policy could have been put a little more diplomatically.  but, seriously &#8211; if public reason had been a blog for professional linguists and it was titled &#8220;public discourse&#8221; or something like that, and it had the same contributors&#8217; policy, would you all get ticked off that those without PhD&#8217;s couldn&#8217;t offer your views on the latest developments in semantics?</p>

	<p>you guys really took the piss out of simon for no good reason and in a very good natured manner, he responded politely and without much rancor, even as you all went about deliberately misinterpreting him.</p>

	<p>if anything, your behavior is an advertisement condemning the social skills of people who spend most their time blogging, while simon&#8217;s behavior is an advertisement for the capacity of academic philosophers to debate vigorously but respectfully, Colin McGinn and Ted Honderich apparently being high-profile exceptions. (And Leiter, too? But, I like Brian&#8217;s blog and think he&#8217;s actually pretty fair, so i am not going to be a hater.)</p>

	<p>In short, Engels and Badger both make the case, through their obnoxious behavior, for the usefulness of an academic-philosophers-only blog.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam C</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/comment-page-2/#comment-217006</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 10:20:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/#comment-217006</guid>
		<description>I suspect that this thread has jumped the shark (thanks, Walt – do you ever make comments which &lt;i&gt;aren’t&lt;/i&gt; contemptuous personal attacks?). But I can’t let this from Badger @ 71 go past unremarked:

&lt;blockquote&gt;There may be something in books as you say, but I doubt it. Of course you mean English language books, which I particularly shun. Btw, where you teach, do they have a strong foreign-languages program to go with their excellent philosophy instruction?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Badger, do you seriously believe that there’s &lt;i&gt;nothing&lt;/i&gt; worth reading in the couple of thousand years of work in the canons of political philosophy? Do you seriously believe that you can get very far with the problems of PP without knowing how others have addressed them? Because if so, you have revealed yourself as a crank. Hopefully you’re just exaggerating for rhetorical effect. And as it happens, yes, my institution does have a highly-rated foreign language department, and many of my students do joint honours in languages and philosophy, although what this has to do with the conversation we were having, I have no idea. I note that you haven’t answered either of the other two points I made at 61. Is this because you now accept that they’re correct?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I suspect that this thread has jumped the shark (thanks, Walt &#8211; do you ever make comments which <i>aren&#8217;t</i> contemptuous personal attacks?). But I can&#8217;t let this from Badger @ 71 go past unremarked:</p>

	<p><blockquote>There may be something in books as you say, but I doubt it. Of course you mean English language books, which I particularly shun. Btw, where you teach, do they have a strong foreign-languages program to go with their excellent philosophy instruction?</blockquote></p>

	<p>Badger, do you seriously believe that there&#8217;s <i>nothing</i> worth reading in the couple of thousand years of work in the canons of political philosophy? Do you seriously believe that you can get very far with the problems of PP without knowing how others have addressed them? Because if so, you have revealed yourself as a crank. Hopefully you&#8217;re just exaggerating for rhetorical effect. And as it happens, yes, my institution does have a highly-rated foreign language department, and many of my students do joint honours in languages and philosophy, although what this has to do with the conversation we were having, I have no idea. I note that you haven&#8217;t answered either of the other two points I made at 61. Is this because you now accept that they&#8217;re correct?</p>
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		<title>By: Katherine</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/comment-page-2/#comment-217001</link>
		<dc:creator>Katherine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 08:27:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/#comment-217001</guid>
		<description>Shorter version of criticism of this membership and/or comments policy:  Wah, they&#039;re not letting everyone in!  Get over yourselves.  Geez, if this was something put together by a public body you might just have a point, but complaining about the private policy of a private (although academic) blog?  What self-important teddy throwing this all is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Shorter version of criticism of this membership and/or comments policy:  Wah, they&#8217;re not letting everyone in!  Get over yourselves.  Geez, if this was something put together by a public body you might just have a point, but complaining about the private policy of a private (although academic) blog?  What self-important teddy throwing this all is.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Edenbaum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/comment-page-2/#comment-216969</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Edenbaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2007 22:59:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/#comment-216969</guid>
		<description>Brilliant insights, or overreach?  Fine with me.
Just read Badger at #71 a few more times, and carefully.
I&#039;m out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Brilliant insights, or overreach?  Fine with me.<br />
Just read Badger at #71 a few more times, and carefully.<br />
I&#8217;m out.</p>
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		<title>By: Barbar</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/comment-page-2/#comment-216967</link>
		<dc:creator>Barbar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2007 22:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/03/the-immanent-frame/#comment-216967</guid>
		<description>From my perspective, it just amazes me that SCM can&#039;t seem to see how bad he looks getting sucked into an 85-comment thread with some cranks.  Jesus.  Here&#039;s a very serious vote for the EDU email requirement -- really, it&#039;s for your own good!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>From my perspective, it just amazes me that <span class="caps">SCM</span> can&#8217;t seem to see how bad he looks getting sucked into an 85-comment thread with some cranks.  Jesus.  Here&#8217;s a very serious vote for the <span class="caps">EDU</span> email requirement&#8212;really, it&#8217;s for your own good!</p>
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