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	<title>Comments on: A little rich</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Matt Weiner</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/comment-page-1/#comment-217200</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Weiner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 17:46:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/#comment-217200</guid>
		<description>Or I could just defer to &lt;a href=&quot;http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/your-votes-or-your-wallet&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Henry&#039;s followup&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Or I could just defer to <a href="http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/your-votes-or-your-wallet" rel="nofollow">Henry&#8217;s followup</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Weiner</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/comment-page-1/#comment-217199</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Weiner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 17:41:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/#comment-217199</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Furthermore, it should go without saying, but politicians care about the rich and poor for different reasons—the poor for their votes alone, but the rich more for their contributions than their votes. So the rich don’t have to form a large percentage of the Democratic base in order for the Democratic politicians to cater to them (in fact, rather obviously, the top 10% richest voters can’t form a large percentage of anybody’s base—there aren’t enough of them).&lt;/i&gt;

Ugh, I destroyed most of my reply with a cut-and-paste error. Anyway, I completely agree, but I don&#039;t think it helps Franc&#039;s argument. Since you don&#039;t have to restrict your donations to local politicans, the representative from Poorsville has every incentive to chase donations from the population of Richton, just as the representative from Richton does; so it doesn&#039;t make sense for Franc to talk about where the rich live. I also suspect that Franc would not be too comfortable with the argument &quot;The Democrats have trouble passing economically progressive policies because the wealthiest people have the power to buy off politicians.&quot; 

I also think your point works against Thomas&#039;s reading of Franc&#039;s argument. In how many districts, let alone states, are the wealthiest people a decisive voting bloc? Damn few, I&#039;d guess. Again, what we want to look at is not &quot;What percentage of rich people live in district X?&quot; but &quot;What percent of district X&#039;s constituents are rich people?&quot; 

[FWIW, according to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/2149.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this page&lt;/a&gt; the 10 richest districts (measured by overall federal income tax) are represented by 5 Democrats and 5 Republicans. Democratic-represented and Republican-represented districts have exactly the same effective tax rate.]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Furthermore, it should go without saying, but politicians care about the rich and poor for different reasons&#8212;the poor for their votes alone, but the rich more for their contributions than their votes. So the rich don&#8217;t have to form a large percentage of the Democratic base in order for the Democratic politicians to cater to them (in fact, rather obviously, the top 10% richest voters can&#8217;t form a large percentage of anybody&#8217;s base&#8212;there aren&#8217;t enough of them).</i></p>

	<p>Ugh, I destroyed most of my reply with a cut-and-paste error. Anyway, I completely agree, but I don&#8217;t think it helps Franc&#8217;s argument. Since you don&#8217;t have to restrict your donations to local politicans, the representative from Poorsville has every incentive to chase donations from the population of Richton, just as the representative from Richton does; so it doesn&#8217;t make sense for Franc to talk about where the rich live. I also suspect that Franc would not be too comfortable with the argument &#8220;The Democrats have trouble passing economically progressive policies because the wealthiest people have the power to buy off politicians.&#8221;</p>

	<p>I also think your point works against Thomas&#8217;s reading of Franc&#8217;s argument. In how many districts, let alone states, are the wealthiest people a decisive voting bloc? Damn few, I&#8217;d guess. Again, what we want to look at is not &#8220;What percentage of rich people live in district X?&#8221; but &#8220;What percent of district X&#8217;s constituents are rich people?&#8221;</p>

	<p>[FWIW, according to <a href="http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/2149.html" rel="nofollow">this page</a> the 10 richest districts (measured by overall federal income tax) are represented by 5 Democrats and 5 Republicans. Democratic-represented and Republican-represented districts have exactly the same effective tax rate.]</p>
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		<title>By: roger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/comment-page-1/#comment-217171</link>
		<dc:creator>roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 15:43:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/#comment-217171</guid>
		<description>Henry, I&#039;m sorry, but when hunting pundit, it is important to know their scat. You have misidentified Michael Franc&#039;s as buffalo dung, when so obviously, that is the excrement of a feral pig.   Adjust your strategy accordingly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Henry, I&#8217;m sorry, but when hunting pundit, it is important to know their scat. You have misidentified Michael Franc&#8217;s as buffalo dung, when so obviously, that is the excrement of a feral pig.   Adjust your strategy accordingly.</p>
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		<title>By: Crooked Timber &#187; &#187; Your votes or your wallet</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/comment-page-1/#comment-217170</link>
		<dc:creator>Crooked Timber &#187; &#187; Your votes or your wallet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 15:41:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/#comment-217170</guid>
		<description>[...] McArdle claims that I got Michael Franc&#8217;s op-ed [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] McArdle claims that I got Michael Franc&#8217;s op-ed [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/comment-page-1/#comment-217146</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 14:27:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/#comment-217146</guid>
		<description>Anybody who thinks that the Democratic Party is the party of the rich should really go to Andrew Gelman&#039;s blog, and check out the graphs of state distribution of votes by income category:

http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~gelman/blog/

His most recent post on party affiliation vs income is here:
http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~cook/movabletype/archives/2007/11/do_the_democrat.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Anybody who thinks that the Democratic Party is the party of the rich should really go to Andrew Gelman&#8217;s blog, and check out the graphs of state distribution of votes by income category:</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~gelman/blog/" rel="nofollow">http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~gelman/blog/</a></p>

	<p>His most recent post on party affiliation vs income is here:<br />
<a href="http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~cook/movabletype/archives/2007/11/do_the_democrat.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~cook/movabletype/archives/2007/11/do_the_democrat.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: stostosto</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/comment-page-1/#comment-217141</link>
		<dc:creator>stostosto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 14:15:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/#comment-217141</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;But this is a different question from what is being discussed here – which is a specific claim about the Democrats’ important constituency being rich.&lt;/i&gt;

Actually, my point is that the way you present things, the important issue appears to be the rather irrelevant fact that this claim was published in the Financial Times. But each to his own.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>But this is a different question from what is being discussed here &#8211; which is a specific claim about the Democrats&#8217; important constituency being rich.</i></p>

	<p>Actually, my point is that the way you present things, the important issue appears to be the rather irrelevant fact that this claim was published in the Financial Times. But each to his own.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/comment-page-1/#comment-217138</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 13:58:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/#comment-217138</guid>
		<description>Henry, you&#039;re right that Franc calls the Democrats the &quot;new party of the rich.&quot;  He follows that immediately with this: &quot;More and more Democrats represent areas with a high concentration of wealthy households. Using Internal Revenue Service data, the Heritage Foundation identified two categories of taxpayers – single filers with incomes of more than $100,000 and married filers with incomes of more than $200,000 – and combined them to discern where the wealthiest Americans live and who represents them.&quot;

Your interpretation of &quot;party of the rich&quot; is no better than your reading of the rest of the piece.  It seems clear enough that &quot;party of the rich&quot; is meant to be understood as meaning what follows.  You attacked what followed as being in error, but obviously it isn&#039;t.  The only error is yours.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Henry, you&#8217;re right that Franc calls the Democrats the &#8220;new party of the rich.&#8221;  He follows that immediately with this: &#8220;More and more Democrats represent areas with a high concentration of wealthy households. Using Internal Revenue Service data, the Heritage Foundation identified two categories of taxpayers &#8211; single filers with incomes of more than $100,000 and married filers with incomes of more than $200,000 &#8211; and combined them to discern where the wealthiest Americans live and who represents them.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Your interpretation of &#8220;party of the rich&#8221; is no better than your reading of the rest of the piece.  It seems clear enough that &#8220;party of the rich&#8221; is meant to be understood as meaning what follows.  You attacked what followed as being in error, but obviously it isn&#8217;t.  The only error is yours.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/comment-page-1/#comment-217137</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 13:42:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/#comment-217137</guid>
		<description>Which states would have won the last Presidential election based on voter income:

http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2007/10/rich-state-poor.html#comments</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Which states would have won the last Presidential election based on voter income:</p>

	<p><a href="http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2007/10/rich-state-poor.html#comments" rel="nofollow">http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2007/10/rich-state-poor.html#comments</a></p>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/comment-page-1/#comment-217135</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 13:30:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/#comment-217135</guid>
		<description>stostosto - there is a completely legitimate question about whether the Democrats are too responsive to wealth. Larry Bartels has a paper that I will try to dig out later showing that there is no evidence that politicians of either party are responsive to the interests of the lowest third of the income distribution. But this is a different question from what is being discussed here - which is a specific claim about the Democrats&#039; important constituency being rich. I did write about the disgracefulness of the tax loophole stuff and Harry Reid last week.

Thomas - given that Franc writes specifically about the Democrats being the &quot;party of the rich&quot; it is eminently and abundantly clear what sense of the word &quot;constituency&quot; he is using here. _Please_ don&#039;t be silly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>stostosto &#8211; there is a completely legitimate question about whether the Democrats are too responsive to wealth. Larry Bartels has a paper that I will try to dig out later showing that there is no evidence that politicians of either party are responsive to the interests of the lowest third of the income distribution. But this is a different question from what is being discussed here &#8211; which is a specific claim about the Democrats&#8217; important constituency being rich. I did write about the disgracefulness of the tax loophole stuff and Harry Reid last week.</p>

	<p>Thomas &#8211; given that Franc writes specifically about the Democrats being the &#8220;party of the rich&#8221; it is eminently and abundantly clear what sense of the word &#8220;constituency&#8221; he is using here. <em>Please</em> don&#8217;t be silly.</p>
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		<title>By: nobody</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/comment-page-1/#comment-217134</link>
		<dc:creator>nobody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 13:23:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/#comment-217134</guid>
		<description>maybe they are trying to change the meaning of the word rich.. like Liberal, which now means George Will and everyone to the left of him.. now Rich is supposed to include salaried workers with adjustable mortgages that outpace raises..

either that, or

the people in Blue states are good with the economy because we are Democratic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>maybe they are trying to change the meaning of the word rich.. like Liberal, which now means George Will and everyone to the left of him.. now Rich is supposed to include salaried workers with adjustable mortgages that outpace raises..</p>

	<p>either that, or</p>

	<p>the people in Blue states are good with the economy because we are Democratic.</p>
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		<title>By: Slocum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/comment-page-1/#comment-217128</link>
		<dc:creator>Slocum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 12:15:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/#comment-217128</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Not really. Michael Franc claims that if the Democratic Party raises taxes on the rich, it will be “inflict[ing] pain on its own constituency.” This only makes sense if the rich are a growing proportion of the Democratic constituency; the question is not what proportion of the rich are Democrats, but what proportion of Democrats are rich.&lt;/i&gt;

Well, first of all the rich are increasingly likely to vote Democratic -- and the trend is stronger than with poor voters for the simple reason that poor voters already were in the Democratic camp whereas rich voters have been changing their party identifications.  

Furthermore, it should go without saying, but politicians care about the rich and poor for different reasons -- the poor for their votes alone, but the rich more for their contributions than their votes.  So the rich don&#039;t have to form a large percentage of the Democratic base in order for the Democratic politicians to cater to them (in fact, rather obviously, the top 10% richest voters can&#039;t form a large percentage of anybody&#039;s base -- there aren&#039;t enough of them).

The Democrats have particular bases of support among the rich (Hollywood, trial lawyers, Silicon Valley) and they take care of them.  And what about hedge fund managers?  Hedge fund managers tend to be the types who contribute lavishly to both parties (and especially to whoever&#039;s in power) so they have chits to call.  Hence the inability of Congress to pass the votes to close the hedge fund &#039;loophole&#039;.

And consider AMT reform, which is linked to closing the hedge fund loophole.  Democrats are keenly interested in reforming the AMT even though it affects upper income voters -- because it tends to hit &lt;i&gt;their&lt;/i&gt; upper income voters more heavily than Republican upper income voters:

&quot;The focus on the AMT is hardly surprising, given that victims of the tax have been concentrated in high-cost urban areas such as Washington, New York and San Francisco -- places that tend to vote Democratic. Rangel, Hoyer and Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), the presumptive House speaker, all represent states hit hard by the AMT, which is sometimes called the &quot;blue-state tax.&quot; To map states with the highest concentrations of AMT taxpayers is to draw bull&#039;s-eyes over California and the Northeastern seaboard&quot;.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/10/AR2006111001800.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Not really. Michael Franc claims that if the Democratic Party raises taxes on the rich, it will be &#8220;inflict[ing] pain on its own constituency.&#8221; This only makes sense if the rich are a growing proportion of the Democratic constituency; the question is not what proportion of the rich are Democrats, but what proportion of Democrats are rich.</i></p>

	<p>Well, first of all the rich are increasingly likely to vote Democratic&#8212;and the trend is stronger than with poor voters for the simple reason that poor voters already were in the Democratic camp whereas rich voters have been changing their party identifications.</p>

	<p>Furthermore, it should go without saying, but politicians care about the rich and poor for different reasons&#8212;the poor for their votes alone, but the rich more for their contributions than their votes.  So the rich don&#8217;t have to form a large percentage of the Democratic base in order for the Democratic politicians to cater to them (in fact, rather obviously, the top 10% richest voters can&#8217;t form a large percentage of anybody&#8217;s base&#8212;there aren&#8217;t enough of them).</p>

	<p>The Democrats have particular bases of support among the rich (Hollywood, trial lawyers, Silicon Valley) and they take care of them.  And what about hedge fund managers?  Hedge fund managers tend to be the types who contribute lavishly to both parties (and especially to whoever&#8217;s in power) so they have chits to call.  Hence the inability of Congress to pass the votes to close the hedge fund &#8216;loophole&#8217;.</p>

	<p>And consider <span class="caps">AMT</span> reform, which is linked to closing the hedge fund loophole.  Democrats are keenly interested in reforming the <span class="caps">AMT</span> even though it affects upper income voters&#8212;because it tends to hit <i>their</i> upper income voters more heavily than Republican upper income voters:</p>

	<p>&#8220;The focus on the <span class="caps">AMT</span> is hardly surprising, given that victims of the tax have been concentrated in high-cost urban areas such as Washington, New York and San Francisco&#8212;places that tend to vote Democratic. Rangel, Hoyer and Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), the presumptive House speaker, all represent states hit hard by the <span class="caps">AMT</span>, which is sometimes called the &#8220;blue-state tax.&#8221; To map states with the highest concentrations of <span class="caps">AMT</span> taxpayers is to draw bull&#8217;s-eyes over California and the Northeastern seaboard&#8221;.<br />
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/10/AR2006111001800.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/10/AR2006111001800.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: stostosto</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/comment-page-1/#comment-217122</link>
		<dc:creator>stostosto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 10:12:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/#comment-217122</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;..the mega-millionaire hedge fund managers’ unreasonable, illogical, unjustified whopping tax privilege.&lt;/i&gt;

Addendum: Unproductive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>..the mega-millionaire hedge fund managers&#8217; unreasonable, illogical, unjustified whopping tax privilege.</i></p>

	<p>Addendum: Unproductive.</p>
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		<title>By: stostosto</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/comment-page-1/#comment-217121</link>
		<dc:creator>stostosto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 09:39:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/#comment-217121</guid>
		<description>Henry, why focus so much attention on the FT rather than the piece itself? The way you present things, the Very Very Serious Aspect appears to be a failure of authority (FT&#039;s) to assert itself. Why not simply take issue with the article? An op-ed isn&#039;t an editorial, you know.

Also, there is a legitimate question about whether the Democrats are indeed being &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/05/opinion/05krugman.html?_r=1&amp;n=Top%2fOpinion%2fEditorials%20and%20Op%2dEd%2fOp%2dEd%2fColumnists&amp;oref=slogin&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Wobbled By Wealth&lt;/a&gt;. 

And surely, the worst aspect of this entire issue is the fact that the Democrats are indeed protecting the mega-millionaire hedge fund managers&#039; unreasonable, illogical, unjustified whopping tax privilege.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Henry, why focus so much attention on the FT rather than the piece itself? The way you present things, the Very Very Serious Aspect appears to be a failure of authority (FT&#8217;s) to assert itself. Why not simply take issue with the article? An op-ed isn&#8217;t an editorial, you know.</p>

	<p>Also, there is a legitimate question about whether the Democrats are indeed being <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/05/opinion/05krugman.html?_r=1&#038;n=Top%2fOpinion%2fEditorials%20and%20Op%2dEd%2fOp%2dEd%2fColumnists&#038;oref=slogin" rel="nofollow">Wobbled By Wealth</a>.</p>

	<p>And surely, the worst aspect of this entire issue is the fact that the Democrats are indeed protecting the mega-millionaire hedge fund managers&#8217; unreasonable, illogical, unjustified whopping tax privilege.</p>
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		<title>By: SG</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/comment-page-1/#comment-217119</link>
		<dc:creator>SG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 09:20:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/#comment-217119</guid>
		<description>Henry, just out of interest and mostly OT, do you have a taxonomy of dung which you apply to these problems? Why buffalo?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Henry, just out of interest and mostly OT, do you have a taxonomy of dung which you apply to these problems? Why buffalo?</p>
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		<title>By: bad Jim</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/comment-page-1/#comment-217117</link>
		<dc:creator>bad Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 08:27:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/06/a-little-rich/#comment-217117</guid>
		<description>At least one group of conspicuously rich people has always been reliably liberal: Hollywood. There are any number of reasons for this. The movie industry at its inception was disproportionately Jewish, it employed artists, some of whom were gay or immigrants, and it absolutely depended upon freedom of expression.

It&#039;s also been noted that the talent tends not to be as allergic to taxation as the rest of the rich, due perhaps to their perception that their good fortune had as much to do with birth or luck as virtue. (Cite needed)

We can define the Democrats negatively as the party of those who are not greedy, racist, sexist, or fearful, which doesn&#039;t exclude a lot of fairly affluent folks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>At least one group of conspicuously rich people has always been reliably liberal: Hollywood. There are any number of reasons for this. The movie industry at its inception was disproportionately Jewish, it employed artists, some of whom were gay or immigrants, and it absolutely depended upon freedom of expression.</p>

	<p>It&#8217;s also been noted that the talent tends not to be as allergic to taxation as the rest of the rich, due perhaps to their perception that their good fortune had as much to do with birth or luck as virtue. (Cite needed)</p>

	<p>We can define the Democrats negatively as the party of those who are not greedy, racist, sexist, or fearful, which doesn&#8217;t exclude a lot of fairly affluent folks.</p>
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