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	<title>Comments on: one hundred and fifty days after</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Friday Procrastination: Link Love : OUPblog</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/comment-page-1/#comment-217425</link>
		<dc:creator>Friday Procrastination: Link Love : OUPblog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:27:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/#comment-217425</guid>
		<description>[...] 150 days later in Belgium. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] 150 days later in Belgium. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/comment-page-1/#comment-217287</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 11:10:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/#comment-217287</guid>
		<description>Well, the Ausgleich of 1867 worked reasonably well. It was pretty dysfunctional by 1914, but then, its problems were as much to do with conflicts within Austria/Cisleithania, perhaps more, than they were to do with conflicts between Austria and Hungary.

Further, a big source of trouble was the elite&#039;s unwillingness to accept that the working class had a valid claim on power, despite huge votes for the Social Democrats that cross-cut the ethnic divides.

None of these points really apply to Belgium.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, the Ausgleich of 1867 worked reasonably well. It was pretty dysfunctional by 1914, but then, its problems were as much to do with conflicts within Austria/Cisleithania, perhaps more, than they were to do with conflicts between Austria and Hungary.</p>

	<p>Further, a big source of trouble was the elite&#8217;s unwillingness to accept that the working class had a valid claim on power, despite huge votes for the Social Democrats that cross-cut the ethnic divides.</p>

	<p>None of these points really apply to Belgium.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/comment-page-1/#comment-217272</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 05:45:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/#comment-217272</guid>
		<description>I can think of three long term solutions for the Belgian problem:

1.  As has been suggested, the Belgian federal government shrinks down to the King, PM, and a handful of ministers (such as the Foreign Minister and Defense Minister).  The Austro-Hungarian arrangement actually worked fine until the federal government started a European wide war, which the federal Belgian government is unlikely to do.  The main problem I see with this is deciding on the internal boundaries.

2.  Belgium splits up, similar to how Czechoslovakia splits up, with the Wallon part maybe joining France.  The main problems are again the internal boundaries, and there doesn&#039;t seem to be any advantages over #1.  A clean break may be psychologically necessary.

3.  The opposite solution: Belgian becomes a unitary Flemish state, but the French speaking minority is guaranteed language rights (ie education and other government services in French, subsidies for French language TV, etc.).  The main problem is that historically Belguim has been governed by a French speaking elite.  The model here would be Quebec, where the nationalist movement was spurred by the disproportionate influence of a smaller anglophone elite.

What are the showstoppers for any of these proposals?  Why the need for muddle?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I can think of three long term solutions for the Belgian problem:</p>

	<p>1.  As has been suggested, the Belgian federal government shrinks down to the King, PM, and a handful of ministers (such as the Foreign Minister and Defense Minister).  The Austro-Hungarian arrangement actually worked fine until the federal government started a European wide war, which the federal Belgian government is unlikely to do.  The main problem I see with this is deciding on the internal boundaries.</p>

	<p>2.  Belgium splits up, similar to how Czechoslovakia splits up, with the Wallon part maybe joining France.  The main problems are again the internal boundaries, and there doesn&#8217;t seem to be any advantages over #1.  A clean break may be psychologically necessary.</p>

	<p>3.  The opposite solution: Belgian becomes a unitary Flemish state, but the French speaking minority is guaranteed language rights (ie education and other government services in French, subsidies for French language TV, etc.).  The main problem is that historically Belguim has been governed by a French speaking elite.  The model here would be Quebec, where the nationalist movement was spurred by the disproportionate influence of a smaller anglophone elite.</p>

	<p>What are the showstoppers for any of these proposals?  Why the need for muddle?</p>
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		<title>By: mijnheer</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/comment-page-1/#comment-217269</link>
		<dc:creator>mijnheer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 04:06:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/#comment-217269</guid>
		<description>CBC television news tonight (Wed., Nov. 7) ran a long segment (15 or 20 minutes) on the Belgian crisis - everything from politics to a language war among Smurfs.  This link may be out of date if you try viewing it tomorrow, but here it is:
http://www.cbc.ca/national/latestbroadcast.html
The Belgium segment starts just before the half-way mark in the hour-long program.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><span class="caps">CBC</span> television news tonight (Wed., Nov. 7) ran a long segment (15 or 20 minutes) on the Belgian crisis &#8211; everything from politics to a language war among Smurfs.  This link may be out of date if you try viewing it tomorrow, but here it is:<br />
<a href="http://www.cbc.ca/national/latestbroadcast.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.cbc.ca/national/latestbroadcast.html</a><br />
The Belgium segment starts just before the half-way mark in the hour-long program.</p>
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		<title>By: Hendrik</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/comment-page-1/#comment-217238</link>
		<dc:creator>Hendrik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 22:21:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/#comment-217238</guid>
		<description>Hmmm, I think the historic traditions in Low Countries (Belgium and the Netherlands) have had sufficient precedent to let anyone at any level organise a referendum on a major political issue and do not mind any legalistic objections about presumed constitutionality in a fundamental dispute on existence.

This tradition brought in the past the
Plakkaet van Verlatinghe [Oath of Abjuration], which was already in earlier medieval traditions that the people could get rid of non-functioning rulers. Het Plakkaet served as a model for a.o. the American Declaration of Independence.

So when majors in B-H-V want to hold local referenda, on proposal by other tiers of government, discussing legality is useless. Just holding them will already create a first order political impact.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hmmm, I think the historic traditions in Low Countries (Belgium and the Netherlands) have had sufficient precedent to let anyone at any level organise a referendum on a major political issue and do not mind any legalistic objections about presumed constitutionality in a fundamental dispute on existence.</p>

	<p>This tradition brought in the past the<br />
Plakkaet van Verlatinghe [Oath of Abjuration], which was already in earlier medieval traditions that the people could get rid of non-functioning rulers. Het Plakkaet served as a model for a.o. the American Declaration of Independence.</p>

	<p>So when majors in B-H-V want to hold local referenda, on proposal by other tiers of government, discussing legality is useless. Just holding them will already create a first order political impact.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Johnson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/comment-page-1/#comment-217195</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 17:27:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/#comment-217195</guid>
		<description>While I certainly don&#039;t expect to see a one-state solution in Israel &amp; Palestine in my lifetime, let&#039;s not draw too sweeping a conclusion from Belgium&#039;s current problems.

Belgium&#039;s been around since 1830.  It&#039;s had a functioning government for the vast majority of that time.  It hasn&#039;t fought a civil war.  Democracy can be a messy, ugly thing, with a lot of gridlock and shouting.  Citizens of a democratic state aren&#039;t require to like each other and often don&#039;t.  We muddle along, complain about the government or our neighbors, and generally avoid killing one another.

One way or another, Israelis and Palestinians will always have issues they&#039;ll need to make joint decisions on: water use, trade, security, environmental issues, etc.  On one hand, you&#039;ve got two states with their own militaries negotiating over sensitive issues.  On the other, you&#039;ve got two groups of politicians with their own constituencies negotiating.  I think Israel and Palestine would be lucky if it were possible to trade their current horrors for Belgium&#039;s political crisis.  And if Belgium does split in two in the future, well, no political arrangement works forever.  Taking that as a lesson that binational democracies don&#039;t work is like seeing an elderly couple divorce after 50 years of marriage and saying &quot;I knew it would never last.&quot;

Anyway, none of this is to suggest that a one state solution is remotely plausible or likely to work, or that a federated Israel/Palestine would be as peaceful and functional as Belgium has been.  I just don&#039;t think Belgium&#039;s latest crisis proves binational states are necessarily a bad idea - or worse than their alternatives.  They have friction.  All political systems do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>While I certainly don&#8217;t expect to see a one-state solution in Israel &#038; Palestine in my lifetime, let&#8217;s not draw too sweeping a conclusion from Belgium&#8217;s current problems.</p>

	<p>Belgium&#8217;s been around since 1830.  It&#8217;s had a functioning government for the vast majority of that time.  It hasn&#8217;t fought a civil war.  Democracy can be a messy, ugly thing, with a lot of gridlock and shouting.  Citizens of a democratic state aren&#8217;t require to like each other and often don&#8217;t.  We muddle along, complain about the government or our neighbors, and generally avoid killing one another.</p>

	<p>One way or another, Israelis and Palestinians will always have issues they&#8217;ll need to make joint decisions on: water use, trade, security, environmental issues, etc.  On one hand, you&#8217;ve got two states with their own militaries negotiating over sensitive issues.  On the other, you&#8217;ve got two groups of politicians with their own constituencies negotiating.  I think Israel and Palestine would be lucky if it were possible to trade their current horrors for Belgium&#8217;s political crisis.  And if Belgium does split in two in the future, well, no political arrangement works forever.  Taking that as a lesson that binational democracies don&#8217;t work is like seeing an elderly couple divorce after 50 years of marriage and saying &#8220;I knew it would never last.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Anyway, none of this is to suggest that a one state solution is remotely plausible or likely to work, or that a federated Israel/Palestine would be as peaceful and functional as Belgium has been.  I just don&#8217;t think Belgium&#8217;s latest crisis proves binational states are necessarily a bad idea &#8211; or worse than their alternatives.  They have friction.  All political systems do.</p>
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		<title>By: Ingrid Robeyns</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/comment-page-1/#comment-217180</link>
		<dc:creator>Ingrid Robeyns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 16:31:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/#comment-217180</guid>
		<description>Lemuel Pitkin - good questions. I am not sure about the first, I think in theory it could continue but after a while surely the population will demand a solution, which could be new elections or something else (it may well be that the longer this draggs on, the more the population radicalises).

The idea of new elections is alraedy been suggested. I think, though, that they would probably first try to form a coaltion around another group of parties, which would include the currently excluded social-democratic parties PS and SPA.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Lemuel Pitkin &#8211; good questions. I am not sure about the first, I think in theory it could continue but after a while surely the population will demand a solution, which could be new elections or something else (it may well be that the longer this draggs on, the more the population radicalises).</p>

	<p>The idea of new elections is alraedy been suggested. I think, though, that they would probably first try to form a coaltion around another group of parties, which would include the currently excluded social-democratic parties PS and <span class="caps">SPA</span>.</p>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/comment-page-1/#comment-217176</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 16:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/#comment-217176</guid>
		<description>Tow questions:

Is there some reason this situation can&#039;t continue indefinitely? Years, even?

Isn&#039;t the norm in parliamentary systems that if it&#039;s impossible to form a government, a new election is held?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Tow questions:</p>

	<p>Is there some reason this situation can&#8217;t continue indefinitely? Years, even?</p>

	<p>Isn&#8217;t the norm in parliamentary systems that if it&#8217;s impossible to form a government, a new election is held?</p>
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		<title>By: Noli Irritare Leones &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Blogwatch: Slavery Reparations, Living Biblically, Belgium, and Identity Theft</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/comment-page-1/#comment-217165</link>
		<dc:creator>Noli Irritare Leones &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Blogwatch: Slavery Reparations, Living Biblically, Belgium, and Identity Theft</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 15:33:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/#comment-217165</guid>
		<description>[...] Belgium still doesn&#8217;t have a government. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] Belgium still doesn&#8217;t have a government. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: eulogist</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/comment-page-1/#comment-217164</link>
		<dc:creator>eulogist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 15:23:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/#comment-217164</guid>
		<description>#11: &lt;i&gt;the Flemish political parties think they were legitimized in doing this since the whole problem has been dragging on for too long, and since they were provoked by the radical francophone party&lt;/i&gt;

Those reasons, and because the Constitutional Court has ruled the current arrangement was unconstitutional. So something had to be done anyway, or it would have been impossible to hold new elections (now *that* would have been an interesting outcome of the collapse of the current talks...).

On referendums: I don&#039;t think the Belgian constitution foresees in referendums on any level of government, meaning that a referendum would only have consultative status anyway (formally at least).

On the referendum wish of the Brussels and Brussels border region mayors: Of course such proceedings should, apart from referendums in each municipality concerned, also include referendums in both Flanders and Brussels. Re how the (French-speaking) Swiss &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ideesuisse.ch/61.0.html?&amp;changeLang=set&amp;L=0&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;canton Jura was created &lt;/a&gt; by splitting from canton Bern in 1978-79.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#11: <i>the Flemish political parties think they were legitimized in doing this since the whole problem has been dragging on for too long, and since they were provoked by the radical francophone party</i></p>

	<p>Those reasons, and because the Constitutional Court has ruled the current arrangement was unconstitutional. So something had to be done anyway, or it would have been impossible to hold new elections (now <strong>that</strong> would have been an interesting outcome of the collapse of the current talks&#8230;).</p>

	<p>On referendums: I don&#8217;t think the Belgian constitution foresees in referendums on any level of government, meaning that a referendum would only have consultative status anyway (formally at least).</p>

	<p>On the referendum wish of the Brussels and Brussels border region mayors: Of course such proceedings should, apart from referendums in each municipality concerned, also include referendums in both Flanders and Brussels. Re how the (French-speaking) Swiss <a href="http://www.ideesuisse.ch/61.0.html?&#038;changeLang=set&#038;L=0" rel="nofollow">canton Jura was created </a> by splitting from canton Bern in 1978-79.</p>
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		<title>By: Hidari</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/comment-page-1/#comment-217153</link>
		<dc:creator>Hidari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 14:49:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/#comment-217153</guid>
		<description>Proponents of the &#039;one state&#039; solution please take note.*


*If this completely derails this comments thread and provokes yet another aimless yet nasty discussion of the Israel-Palestine situation I apologise. But it does seem to me that proponents of the one state solution are simply not living in the real world, and what is happening to Belgium (and what happened to the Czech Republic and Slovakia) would seem to prove it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Proponents of the &#8216;one state&#8217; solution please take note.*</p>


	<p>*If this completely derails this comments thread and provokes yet another aimless yet nasty discussion of the Israel-Palestine situation I apologise. But it does seem to me that proponents of the one state solution are simply not living in the real world, and what is happening to Belgium (and what happened to the Czech Republic and Slovakia) would seem to prove it.</p>
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		<title>By: Ingrid Robeyns</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/comment-page-1/#comment-217148</link>
		<dc:creator>Ingrid Robeyns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 14:35:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/#comment-217148</guid>
		<description>Addition to the Update: The Francophone members left the Commission meeting before the vote was taken, so basically the Flemish imposed their will on the Francophone (the Flemish political parties think they were legitimized in doing this since the whole problem has been dragging on for too long, and since they were provoked by the radical francophone party). Not sure what will happen next - but it seems highly unlikely that the (already extremely difficult) coalition negotiations can now just continue as if nothing has happened. That doesn&#039;t necessarily imply that the negotiations will be aborted completely, but it doesn&#039;t make the conversations and negotiations between the two communities any easier, that&#039;s for sure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Addition to the Update: The Francophone members left the Commission meeting before the vote was taken, so basically the Flemish imposed their will on the Francophone (the Flemish political parties think they were legitimized in doing this since the whole problem has been dragging on for too long, and since they were provoked by the radical francophone party). Not sure what will happen next &#8211; but it seems highly unlikely that the (already extremely difficult) coalition negotiations can now just continue as if nothing has happened. That doesn&#8217;t necessarily imply that the negotiations will be aborted completely, but it doesn&#8217;t make the conversations and negotiations between the two communities any easier, that&#8217;s for sure.</p>
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		<title>By: Outside The Beltway &#124; OTB</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/comment-page-1/#comment-217147</link>
		<dc:creator>Outside The Beltway &#124; OTB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 14:29:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/#comment-217147</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Belgium:  No Government 150 Days after Elections...&lt;/strong&gt;

As screwed up as American politics can often be, our elections almost always provide relatively decisive outcomes.  As Ingrid Robeyns reminds us, that&#8217;s not true everywhere, not even in Europe.
Today is 150 days after the Belgian elections, and t...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><strong>Belgium:  No Government 150 Days after Elections&#8230;</strong></p>

	<p>As screwed up as American politics can often be, our elections almost always provide relatively decisive outcomes.  As Ingrid Robeyns reminds us, that&#8217;s not true everywhere, not even in Europe.<br />
Today is 150 days after the Belgian elections, and t&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: nu</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/comment-page-1/#comment-217145</link>
		<dc:creator>nu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 14:26:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/#comment-217145</guid>
		<description>Alex,

Since federal taxation and redistribution is at the center of the debate/problem, that wouldn&#039;t be a compromise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Alex,</p>

	<p>Since federal taxation and redistribution is at the center of the debate/problem, that wouldn&#8217;t be a compromise.</p>
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		<title>By: stostosto</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/comment-page-1/#comment-217144</link>
		<dc:creator>stostosto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 14:24:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/07/one-hundred-and-fifty-days-after/#comment-217144</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Austria-Hungary from 1867 to 1918 had two state-like entities owing loyalty to the same king and a tiny federal government.&lt;/i&gt;

And look how that ended...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Austria-Hungary from 1867 to 1918 had two state-like entities owing loyalty to the same king and a tiny federal government.</i></p>

	<p>And look how that ended&#8230;</p>
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