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	<title>Comments on: The Great Gravy Train Robbery</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Regnery &#171; Petunias</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/comment-page-1/#comment-217563</link>
		<dc:creator>Regnery &#171; Petunias</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Nov 2007 14:02:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/#comment-217563</guid>
		<description>[...] some of the writers published by Regnery are suing them (it&#8217;s also looked at here, here, here, here (Jane also talks a bit about another conservative operation Pajama Media), and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] some of the writers published by Regnery are suing them&#160;(it&#8217;s also looked at here, here, here, here&#160;(Jane also talks a bit about another conservative operation Pajama Media), and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Clyde Mnestra</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/comment-page-1/#comment-217498</link>
		<dc:creator>Clyde Mnestra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Nov 2007 00:06:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/#comment-217498</guid>
		<description>#34, touche.  I dropped the &quot;every&quot; -- of course, it&#039;s up the author/artist to decide.  Not everyone is so obviously served by upping distribution that an insistence on contractual rights (which may or may not exist here) is idiotic, as critics of the suit seem to be suggesting.  What pleases Radiohead may not suit Metallica.  And not every discounted distribution channel is free from self-dealing.  If Sony started bundling its artists&#039; CDs on the cheap or as freebies with Playstations, they might have a beef.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#34, touche.  I dropped the &#8220;every&#8221;&#8212;of course, it&#8217;s up the author/artist to decide.  Not everyone is so obviously served by upping distribution that an insistence on contractual rights (which may or may not exist here) is idiotic, as critics of the suit seem to be suggesting.  What pleases Radiohead may not suit Metallica.  And not every discounted distribution channel is free from self-dealing.  If Sony started bundling its artists&#8217; CDs on the cheap or as freebies with Playstations, they might have a beef.</p>
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		<title>By: thompsaj</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/comment-page-1/#comment-217491</link>
		<dc:creator>thompsaj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 23:28:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/#comment-217491</guid>
		<description>@33, please &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.myspace.com/madelineflash&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;download&lt;/a&gt; my bands songs for free!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@33, please <a href="http://www.myspace.com/madelineflash" rel="nofollow">download</a> my bands songs for free!</p>
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		<title>By: Clyde Mnestra</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/comment-page-1/#comment-217486</link>
		<dc:creator>Clyde Mnestra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 22:32:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/#comment-217486</guid>
		<description>#32 is exactly right.  This is a very unsympathetic group of authors, and they are stupid if they think that every dumped book is a foregone sale at full price.  But Jane Hamsher&#039;s ill-informed ridicule suggests that she doesn&#039;t have the firedoggiest clue about how these issues arise in other, more sympathetic contexts.  I would surprised if every author &quot;would kill to have their works seeded out there at such great expense&quot; -- if so, you would see authors, and music artists, clamoring for more discounted distribution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#32 is exactly right.  This is a very unsympathetic group of authors, and they are stupid if they think that every dumped book is a foregone sale at full price.  But Jane Hamsher&#8217;s ill-informed ridicule suggests that she doesn&#8217;t have the firedoggiest clue about how these issues arise in other, more sympathetic contexts.  I would surprised if every author &#8220;would kill to have their works seeded out there at such great expense&#8221;&#8212;if so, you would see authors, and music artists, clamoring for more discounted distribution.</p>
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		<title>By: publishing type</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/comment-page-1/#comment-217432</link>
		<dc:creator>publishing type</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 13:29:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/#comment-217432</guid>
		<description>dsquared,

You are correct that Regnery&#039;s business model is both clear and profit-driven. The &lt;i&gt;legal&lt;/i&gt; issue for the authors however, isn&#039;t that the sales though bookclubs substitute for bookstore sales at a higher royalty. It&#039;s that Regnery is supposed to treat their subsidiary companies at an arms-length basis, and if they did the authors would have received a higher royalty than they did. It would have been reduced, but not as much. 

If they had licensed books to Book of the Month Club, for instance, it would have resulted in a royalty per copy sold by BOMC that the authors split with the publisher. That is the standard in the industry and every pubisher who owns a bookclub treats internal licenses the same way they would one with a third party publisher. 

The authors probably have a winning case that all authors ought to be aware of and concerned about. I would expect that the Author&#039;s Guild would support them. If they don&#039;t have a clear cut win, it&#039;s only because they signed contracts that are so far out of industry standards as to be laughable, and they should fire their agents or lawyers for being fools or accept that they are fools for not not having had representation. 

What&#039;s delicious here is that the authors, all surely capitalists in tooth and claw, have been taken to the cleaners by cut-throat capitalists. I expect they&#039;ll gladly accept the assistance of the Author&#039;s Guild and other writers&#039; unions in pressing their case, which they&#039;ll get even if they don&#039;t deserve it. 

By the way, bookclub sales and bulk sales through retail booktores don&#039;t count towards placement on bestseller lists. Regnery did this to increase their profits, plain and simple, although they&#039;ll argue that there was pubicity value in what they did. My bet, based on many years in this industry, is that they will end up paying the authors, probably in a settlement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>dsquared,</p>

	<p>You are correct that Regnery&#8217;s business model is both clear and profit-driven. The <i>legal</i> issue for the authors however, isn&#8217;t that the sales though bookclubs substitute for bookstore sales at a higher royalty. It&#8217;s that Regnery is supposed to treat their subsidiary companies at an arms-length basis, and if they did the authors would have received a higher royalty than they did. It would have been reduced, but not as much.</p>

	<p>If they had licensed books to Book of the Month Club, for instance, it would have resulted in a royalty per copy sold by <span class="caps">BOMC</span> that the authors split with the publisher. That is the standard in the industry and every pubisher who owns a bookclub treats internal licenses the same way they would one with a third party publisher.</p>

	<p>The authors probably have a winning case that all authors ought to be aware of and concerned about. I would expect that the Author&#8217;s Guild would support them. If they don&#8217;t have a clear cut win, it&#8217;s only because they signed contracts that are so far out of industry standards as to be laughable, and they should fire their agents or lawyers for being fools or accept that they are fools for not not having had representation.</p>

	<p>What&#8217;s delicious here is that the authors, all surely capitalists in tooth and claw, have been taken to the cleaners by cut-throat capitalists. I expect they&#8217;ll gladly accept the assistance of the Author&#8217;s Guild and other writers&#8217; unions in pressing their case, which they&#8217;ll get even if they don&#8217;t deserve it.</p>

	<p>By the way, bookclub sales and bulk sales through retail booktores don&#8217;t count towards placement on bestseller lists. Regnery did this to increase their profits, plain and simple, although they&#8217;ll argue that there was pubicity value in what they did. My bet, based on many years in this industry, is that they will end up paying the authors, probably in a settlement.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Weiner</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/comment-page-1/#comment-217430</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Weiner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 13:12:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/#comment-217430</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/7789.html#comment-331321&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here&#039;s&lt;/a&gt; the link to Edroso&#039;s comment.

I&#039;m not sure I buy the theory. We&#039;re probably entering an era in which Democrats are more dominant than they have been, but I&#039;d figure that would be &lt;i&gt;good&lt;/i&gt; for the wingnuttiest wingnuts. More targets of anger.

On the other hand, Richard Mellon Scaife&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003661539&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;messy divorce&lt;/a&gt; could deal a serious blow to the wingnut welfare economy.

[Note: I&#039;m talking out of my ass here.]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><a href="http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/7789.html#comment-331321" rel="nofollow">Here&#8217;s</a> the link to Edroso&#8217;s comment.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m not sure I buy the theory. We&#8217;re probably entering an era in which Democrats are more dominant than they have been, but I&#8217;d figure that would be <i>good</i> for the wingnuttiest wingnuts. More targets of anger.</p>

	<p>On the other hand, Richard Mellon Scaife&#8217;s <a href="http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003661539" rel="nofollow">messy divorce</a> could deal a serious blow to the wingnut welfare economy.</p>

	<p>[Note: I&#8217;m talking out of my ass here.]</p>
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		<title>By: Karl Steel</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/comment-page-1/#comment-217424</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Steel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:22:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/#comment-217424</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s also funny to me that Kimball graces his column with the title of Mary McCarthy&#039;s academic satire. I&#039;ve yet to read it, but I&#039;m inclined to think that after the takedown-for-all-time it got in Randall Jarall&#039;s marvelous &lt;i&gt;Pictures from an Institution,&lt;/i&gt; Kimball would hesitate. But I suppose an academic who lovingly references the fantasy of &lt;i&gt;Lucky Jim&lt;/i&gt; (a novel in which our hero is rescued by a sugardaddy) might not quite know what he&#039;s up to, allusionarily speaking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It&#8217;s also funny to me that Kimball graces his column with the title of Mary McCarthy&#8217;s academic satire. I&#8217;ve yet to read it, but I&#8217;m inclined to think that after the takedown-for-all-time it got in Randall Jarall&#8217;s marvelous <i>Pictures from an Institution,</i> Kimball would hesitate. But I suppose an academic who lovingly references the fantasy of <i>Lucky Jim</i> (a novel in which our hero is rescued by a sugardaddy) might not quite know what he&#8217;s up to, allusionarily speaking.</p>
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		<title>By: dsquared</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/comment-page-1/#comment-217414</link>
		<dc:creator>dsquared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 08:21:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/#comment-217414</guid>
		<description>26:  nah, Regnery&#039;s business model is quite comprehensible and probably even profitable.  The books are a marketing tool for the mewsletters and the Conservative Book Club.  Taken as a whole, the operation probably breaks even or makes money.  But it&#039;s a newsletter business with an expensive hobby (as insurance companies can often be analysed as a closed-end mutual fund with an expensive hobby), not a book publishing business.  The authors believe that when Regnery sells 40,000 books at cost price to the Conservative Book Club, they&#039;re losing out on 40,000 full price sales, but this is pretty transparently wrong.  The matter at issue is whether they&#039;re being done out of say 20,000 full price sales by the book club (in which case Regnery probably is doing something unethical if not necessarily illegal), or whether the only way those copies would ever have shifted is through the book club at knocked down prices, in which case Regnery&#039;s doing the authors a big favour by allowing them to call themselves &quot;NEW YORK TIMES BESTSELLER WRITERSS!!!111!!&quot; and they are being quite disgracefully ungrateful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>26:  nah, Regnery&#8217;s business model is quite comprehensible and probably even profitable.  The books are a marketing tool for the mewsletters and the Conservative Book Club.  Taken as a whole, the operation probably breaks even or makes money.  But it&#8217;s a newsletter business with an expensive hobby (as insurance companies can often be analysed as a closed-end mutual fund with an expensive hobby), not a book publishing business.  The authors believe that when Regnery sells 40,000 books at cost price to the Conservative Book Club, they&#8217;re losing out on 40,000 full price sales, but this is pretty transparently wrong.  The matter at issue is whether they&#8217;re being done out of say 20,000 full price sales by the book club (in which case Regnery probably is doing something unethical if not necessarily illegal), or whether the only way those copies would ever have shifted is through the book club at knocked down prices, in which case Regnery&#8217;s doing the authors a big favour by allowing them to call themselves &#8220;NEW <span class="caps">YORK TIMES BESTSELLER WRITERSS</span><img src="!" alt="" border="0" />111!!&#8221; and they are being quite disgracefully ungrateful.</p>
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		<title>By: andrew cave</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/comment-page-1/#comment-217395</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew cave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 02:51:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/#comment-217395</guid>
		<description>In a Sadly,NO! thread on this very topic, Roy Edroso made a magnificent (and apposite) comment to the effect of:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
They&#039;ve realised the wheels have fallen off the gravy train - now they&#039;re just raiding it for provisions.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

making the point that the wingnuts have seen the writing on the wall for wingnut welfare and are now trying to make hay while the sun is still peeking over the Nov 2008 horizon.

I&#039;d provide the link but SN&#039;s language is so NSFW that I don&#039;t want to risk it on a work PC.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In a Sadly,NO! thread on this very topic, Roy Edroso made a magnificent (and apposite) comment to the effect of:<br />
<blockquote><br />
They&#8217;ve realised the wheels have fallen off the gravy train &#8211; now they&#8217;re just raiding it for provisions.<br />
</blockquote></p>

	<p>making the point that the wingnuts have seen the writing on the wall for wingnut welfare and are now trying to make hay while the sun is still peeking over the Nov 2008 horizon.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;d provide the link but SN&#8217;s language is so <span class="caps">NSFW</span> that I don&#8217;t want to risk it on a work PC.</p>
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		<title>By: sbk</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/comment-page-1/#comment-217393</link>
		<dc:creator>sbk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 02:42:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/#comment-217393</guid>
		<description>God, Kimball looks uncannily like David Brooks, except somehow... more so.

&lt;i&gt;On the other hand the idea of reading Roger Kimball explaining Wittgenstein makes me feel faint.&lt;/i&gt;

No joke.  I don&#039;t think you get to wear that bowtie until you can furnish a signed statement from God that you have never read, and will never read, anything between the first and last lines of the &lt;i&gt;Tractatus&lt;/i&gt;.  The back of the left half of the tie says &quot;Die Welt is alles, was der Fall ist,&quot; and the right side says, &quot;Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen,&quot; and this way you can tuck your chin into your neck and slur either of them out at a party without anyone being the wiser.  The tie also has a valve to spray ink on hostile art professors and allow Kimball to escape quickly in a cab.  The only catch is that if he ever meets the man wearing the tie that says &quot;Die Grenzen meiner Sprache bedeuten die Grenzen meiner Welt,&quot; that man will destroy him.  Or such is my understanding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>God, Kimball looks uncannily like David Brooks, except somehow&#8230; more so.</p>

	<p><i>On the other hand the idea of reading Roger Kimball explaining Wittgenstein makes me feel faint.</i></p>

	<p>No joke.  I don&#8217;t think you get to wear that bowtie until you can furnish a signed statement from God that you have never read, and will never read, anything between the first and last lines of the <i>Tractatus</i>.  The back of the left half of the tie says &#8220;Die Welt is alles, was der Fall ist,&#8221; and the right side says, &#8220;Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, dar&#252;ber mu&#223; man schweigen,&#8221; and this way you can tuck your chin into your neck and slur either of them out at a party without anyone being the wiser.  The tie also has a valve to spray ink on hostile art professors and allow Kimball to escape quickly in a cab.  The only catch is that if he ever meets the man wearing the tie that says &#8220;Die Grenzen meiner Sprache bedeuten die Grenzen meiner Welt,&#8221; that man will destroy him.  Or such is my understanding.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Oxford</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/comment-page-1/#comment-217348</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Oxford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 22:05:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/#comment-217348</guid>
		<description>So the Regnery business model is:

1. Game the best sellers lists by subsidized dumping of otherwise unsellable (and unreadable) books.

2. ?

3. Profit (not to be shared with &quot;authors&quot;).

Even assuming a closed system with Richard Mellon Scaife&#039;s trust fund, doesn&#039;t this violate some law of Friedmanomics</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>So the Regnery business model is:</p>

	<p>1. Game the best sellers lists by subsidized dumping of otherwise unsellable (and unreadable) books.</p>

	<p>2. ?</p>

	<p>3. Profit (not to be shared with &#8220;authors&#8221;).</p>

	<p>Even assuming a closed system with Richard Mellon Scaife&#8217;s trust fund, doesn&#8217;t this violate some law of Friedmanomics</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Bérubé</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/comment-page-1/#comment-217336</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Bérubé</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 20:02:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/#comment-217336</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Alas, it’s “Alasdair” not “Alisdair”. &lt;/i&gt;

Dang it all.  You know, there was a time when &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.michaelberube.com/index.php/weblog/thinking_about_thinking/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;I knew that&lt;/a&gt;.  But I was much younger then.

And yes, Karl, Roger&#039;s point is that NYU would be justified in discussing public toilets if the tuition rate were lower.  $24,400, I believe, is the cutoff; above that level, one is required to get one&#039;s mind off one&#039;s fundament and discuss more elevated subjects.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Alas, it&#8217;s &#8220;Alasdair&#8221; not &#8220;Alisdair&#8221;. </i></p>

	<p>Dang it all.  You know, there was a time when <a href="http://www.michaelberube.com/index.php/weblog/thinking_about_thinking/" rel="nofollow">I knew that</a>.  But I was much younger then.</p>

	<p>And yes, Karl, Roger&#8217;s point is that <span class="caps">NYU</span> would be justified in discussing public toilets if the tuition rate were lower.  $24,400, I believe, is the cutoff; above that level, one is required to get one&#8217;s mind off one&#8217;s fundament and discuss more elevated subjects.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Maier</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/comment-page-1/#comment-217330</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Maier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 18:58:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/#comment-217330</guid>
		<description>Speaking of Rorty, I imagine both he and Roger K would be appalled to see the similarity between the former&#039;s &quot;ethnocentrism&quot; and the quotation from the latter provided by jp stormcrow in comment #2.

Kimball likes that Wittgenstein quotation a lot, but to paraphrase someone else entirely: he keeps using that quotation; I don&#039;t think it means what he thinks it means.  On the other hand the idea of reading Roger Kimball explaining Wittgenstein makes me feel faint.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Speaking of Rorty, I imagine both he and Roger K would be appalled to see the similarity between the former&#8217;s &#8220;ethnocentrism&#8221; and the quotation from the latter provided by jp stormcrow in comment #2.</p>

	<p>Kimball likes that Wittgenstein quotation a lot, but to paraphrase someone else entirely: he keeps using that quotation; I don&#8217;t think it means what he thinks it means.  On the other hand the idea of reading Roger Kimball explaining Wittgenstein makes me feel faint.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/comment-page-1/#comment-217328</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 18:28:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/#comment-217328</guid>
		<description>20 reminds me of the two requirements for a career as a DC consultant: grey hair, to appear serious, and hemorrhoids, to look concerned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>20 reminds me of the two requirements for a career as a DC consultant: grey hair, to appear serious, and hemorrhoids, to look concerned.</p>
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		<title>By: There is No There</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/comment-page-1/#comment-217324</link>
		<dc:creator>There is No There</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 18:14:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/08/the-great-gravy-train-robbery/#comment-217324</guid>
		<description>... the perhaps metaphysical PARALLEL between ... 

Apologies.  Discovered a new label of Irish Whiskey last night ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8230; the perhaps metaphysical <span class="caps">PARALLEL</span> between &#8230;</p>

	<p>Apologies.  Discovered a new label of Irish Whiskey last night &#8230;</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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