Comments on: The Underbelly of the Nordic Model http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:24:44 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: engels http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/comment-page-1/#comment-218167 engels Fri, 16 Nov 2007 01:31:30 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/#comment-218167 <i>However, the fact that I’ve worked for TCS, currently do so for the Adam Smith Institute (as a freelance writer), occasionally for The Times and The Daily Telegraph in the UK: yes, for some that makes me a fully paid up member of the right-wing propaganda industry.</i> Ya think? However, the fact that I’ve worked for TCS, currently do so for the Adam Smith Institute (as a freelance writer), occasionally for The Times and The Daily Telegraph in the UK: yes, for some that makes me a fully paid up member of the right-wing propaganda industry.

Ya think?

]]> By: Jacob Christensen http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/comment-page-1/#comment-218120 Jacob Christensen Wed, 14 Nov 2007 14:12:21 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/#comment-218120 While we're at it: Media tells us that the Swedes are <a href="http://www.svd.se/nyheter/inrikes/artikel_593075.svd" rel="nofollow">a bunch of thieves</a>, at least when it comes to shoplifting. (Caution: The inquiry was made by a firm which sells surveillance equipment for retail shops). While we’re at it: Media tells us that the Swedes are a bunch of thieves, at least when it comes to shoplifting. (Caution: The inquiry was made by a firm which sells surveillance equipment for retail shops).

]]> By: Katherine http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/comment-page-1/#comment-218018 Katherine Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:55:06 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/#comment-218018 Ajay, that he believes what he says and is fairly honest about it would lead me to think that the way to address him would be with honesty and try to persuade him of your view with bona fides, rather than dismiss him as a right wing propogandist. You're never going to bring him back from the dark side with that attitude. Ajay, that he believes what he says and is fairly honest about it would lead me to think that the way to address him would be with honesty and try to persuade him of your view with bona fides, rather than dismiss him as a right wing propogandist. You’re never going to bring him back from the dark side with that attitude.

]]> By: Mr. Svinlesha http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/comment-page-1/#comment-218011 Mr. Svinlesha Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:57:29 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/#comment-218011 Here's the thing: with regard to the "4%" figure, that isn't really a measure of how widespread the cheating actually is. With regard to VAB days, for example, recent studies have discovered something like a 25% level of cheating (if memory serves) -- meaning that 25% of parents admit to having cheated at some point and falsely claimed VAB payments. (VAB stands for "Vård av barn": that is to say, workers are insured for 80% of their income loss for a day of work, if they are required to stay at home with a sick child.) Now, the problem is two-fold. One, it has been discovered that many parents take advantage of this by taking a day off while claiming to be home with a sick child. But of course, they don't do that <i>all the time</i>: they might do it once or twice a year. So the cheating is widespread, but still only makes up a fairly small proportion of the total insurance payments. The other, rather astounding, problem, is the fact that the social insurance program has no control system in place. That really speaks to the very high social morality one finds over here, but even with such a high level of social cooperation, of course there will always be freeloaders, and so obviously some sort of controls need to be established. Before drawing conclusions about what the high level of cheating means, one needs to take this into account. The new right-wing government has instituted new controls on the payouts: they have people call the daycare centers and confirm that the child was really absent on the day the parent applied for VAB. This seems to have resulted in a major decrease in the number of VAB days claimed by parents, (although this system is also somewhat controversial). Of course, there will always be freeloaders in a generous welfare system. As an American ex-pat now living in Sweden for almost two decades, I will gladly accept that minor inconvenience in exchange for the excellent social welfare I and my family receive over here, thank you very much. Here’s the thing: with regard to the “4%” figure, that isn’t really a measure of how widespread the cheating actually is. With regard to VAB days, for example, recent studies have discovered something like a 25% level of cheating (if memory serves)—meaning that 25% of parents admit to having cheated at some point and falsely claimed VAB payments. (VAB stands for “Vård av barn”: that is to say, workers are insured for 80% of their income loss for a day of work, if they are required to stay at home with a sick child.)

Now, the problem is two-fold. One, it has been discovered that many parents take advantage of this by taking a day off while claiming to be home with a sick child. But of course, they don’t do that all the time: they might do it once or twice a year. So the cheating is widespread, but still only makes up a fairly small proportion of the total insurance payments.

The other, rather astounding, problem, is the fact that the social insurance program has no control system in place. That really speaks to the very high social morality one finds over here, but even with such a high level of social cooperation, of course there will always be freeloaders, and so obviously some sort of controls need to be established.

Before drawing conclusions about what the high level of cheating means, one needs to take this into account. The new right-wing government has instituted new controls on the payouts: they have people call the daycare centers and confirm that the child was really absent on the day the parent applied for VAB. This seems to have resulted in a major decrease in the number of VAB days claimed by parents, (although this system is also somewhat controversial).

Of course, there will always be freeloaders in a generous welfare system. As an American ex-pat now living in Sweden for almost two decades, I will gladly accept that minor inconvenience in exchange for the excellent social welfare I and my family receive over here, thank you very much.

]]> By: Peter Clay http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/comment-page-1/#comment-217950 Peter Clay Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:55:40 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/#comment-217950 “Citizen’s basic income.” What's wrong with that? My hobby horse would be asking for a minimum marginal wage, a less drastic but harder to implement change. “Citizen’s basic income.”

What’s wrong with that?

My hobby horse would be asking for a minimum marginal wage, a less drastic but harder to implement change.

]]> By: ajay http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/comment-page-1/#comment-217936 ajay Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:54:19 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/#comment-217936 42: exactly. It's worse than that; he actually believes what he says. ("Citizen's basic income." Love it.) 42: exactly. It’s worse than that; he actually believes what he says. (“Citizen’s basic income.” Love it.)

]]> By: Erik Lundbom http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/comment-page-1/#comment-217926 Erik Lundbom Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:48:11 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/#comment-217926 I have to agree with drr; the reason for the outrage in Sweden is at least partly due to the honesty required to make the model work. Yes you are entitled to benefits if you require them but you are also expected to do your bit for the common god, i.e. work if you can and pay your taxes. In the last twenty or so years there has however - in my experience - been a rather marked change in attitude among many, especially in the lager cities. The other reason, as I see it, for the outrage is the political agenda of large parts of Swedish mainstream media. They have, at least since the early nineties, been pushing neocon views and the dismantling of the welfare state has been high on the agenda. Most of the things that made Sweden in the seventies one of the best places in the world to live are gone, and my prediction would be that you will see the Scandinavian countries slowly adapt to standard eurolevels of corruption and greed as time goes on. I have to agree with drr; the reason for the outrage in Sweden is at least partly due to the honesty required to make the model work. Yes you are entitled to benefits if you require them but you are also expected to do your bit for the common god, i.e. work if you can and pay your taxes. In the last twenty or so years there has however – in my experience – been a rather marked change in attitude among many, especially in the lager cities.
The other reason, as I see it, for the outrage is the political agenda of large parts of Swedish mainstream media. They have, at least since the early nineties, been pushing neocon views and the dismantling of the welfare state has been high on the agenda. Most of the things that made Sweden in the seventies one of the best places in the world to live are gone, and my prediction would be that you will see the Scandinavian countries slowly adapt to standard eurolevels of corruption and greed as time goes on.

]]> By: Tim Worstall http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/comment-page-1/#comment-217921 Tim Worstall Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:37:42 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/#comment-217921 Thank you Katherine. However, the fact that I've worked for TCS, currently do so for the Adam Smith Institute (as a freelance writer), occasionally for The Times and The Daily Telegraph in the UK: yes, for some that makes me a fully paid up member of the right-wing propaganda industry. That my actual views on welfare are that we should simply abolish the entire system makes me more so, that I would replace it with a citizen's basic income, well, that could put me almost anywhere on the map. Thank you Katherine. However, the fact that I’ve worked for TCS, currently do so for the Adam Smith Institute (as a freelance writer), occasionally for The Times and The Daily Telegraph in the UK: yes, for some that makes me a fully paid up member of the right-wing propaganda industry.

That my actual views on welfare are that we should simply abolish the entire system makes me more so, that I would replace it with a citizen’s basic income, well, that could put me almost anywhere on the map.

]]> By: Katherine http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/comment-page-1/#comment-217915 Katherine Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:14:40 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/#comment-217915 @ 31 "Tim is part of the right-wing propaganda industry" I think that is a rather harsh assessment of Mr Worstall. He certainly is from the right wing side of the economic debate, but I've never seen him deliberately dissemble or distort to put his views forward. Or at least, not to the point of labelling him part of a "propoganda industry". Call him that, and you have to call CT part of the left-wing propoganda industry. @ 31 “Tim is part of the right-wing propaganda industry”

I think that is a rather harsh assessment of Mr Worstall. He certainly is from the right wing side of the economic debate, but I’ve never seen him deliberately dissemble or distort to put his views forward. Or at least, not to the point of labelling him part of a “propoganda industry”. Call him that, and you have to call CT part of the left-wing propoganda industry.

]]> By: Jacob Christensen http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/comment-page-1/#comment-217914 Jacob Christensen Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:01:10 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/#comment-217914 @John Emerson: :-P (Yes, Danes drink and smoke more than the Swedes. And they also have a health care system which has been pathetic in dealing with cancer) @John Emerson: :-P (Yes, Danes drink and smoke more than the Swedes. And they also have a health care system which has been pathetic in dealing with cancer)

]]> By: david http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/comment-page-1/#comment-217892 david Mon, 12 Nov 2007 03:10:18 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/#comment-217892 Not entirely off topic, but the movie "Together" offers a pretty great view of Sweden in the 70's, and makes the Nordic model seem pretty appealing and flawed by the end. Not entirely off topic, but the movie “Together” offers a pretty great view of Sweden in the 70’s, and makes the Nordic model seem pretty appealing and flawed by the end.

]]> By: John Emerson http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/comment-page-1/#comment-217884 John Emerson Mon, 12 Nov 2007 01:29:58 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/#comment-217884 Asian Americans aren't exactly party animals either. Asian Americans aren’t exactly party animals either.

]]> By: John Emerson http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/comment-page-1/#comment-217883 John Emerson Mon, 12 Nov 2007 01:26:39 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/#comment-217883 Danes have slightly more fun, right? In a recent study of the US which I can't recover at the moment, they separated out one very peculiar demographic: about 3 million poor whites in the Upper Midwest (which tends to be Scandinavian or German). They were healthier than any American group (including prosperous whites and poor whites elsewhere) except Asian Americans. I tend to think it's because of the Aryan tendency not to have much fun. Danes have slightly more fun, right?

In a recent study of the US which I can’t recover at the moment, they separated out one very peculiar demographic: about 3 million poor whites in the Upper Midwest (which tends to be Scandinavian or German). They were healthier than any American group (including prosperous whites and poor whites elsewhere) except Asian Americans. I tend to think it’s because of the Aryan tendency not to have much fun.

]]> By: Jacob Christensen http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/comment-page-1/#comment-217876 Jacob Christensen Mon, 12 Nov 2007 00:10:59 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/#comment-217876 @34+35: I think Cowen has confused some numbers (a harsh criticism of an economist, I know). If you look at the Nordic Statistical Yearbook - available as <a href="http://www.norden.org/pub/ovrigt/statistik/sk/N2007001.pdf" rel="nofollow">a pdf for free here</a> - table 48, page 108 (or figure 35, page 109), you get somewhat lower figures for the general workforce - and given the high share of local council employees, we should expect higher numbers if 25% were absent. That there are interesting variations between the private and public sector beyond what can be explained by gender is correct. And we Nordics are interested in the variations between states as well: The Danes have notoriously bad health (as in: We die earlier), but the Swedes and Norwegians are sicker than we are. @34+35: I think Cowen has confused some numbers (a harsh criticism of an economist, I know).

If you look at the Nordic Statistical Yearbook – available as a pdf for free here – table 48, page 108 (or figure 35, page 109), you get somewhat lower figures for the general workforce – and given the high share of local council employees, we should expect higher numbers if 25% were absent. That there are interesting variations between the private and public sector beyond what can be explained by gender is correct.

And we Nordics are interested in the variations between states as well: The Danes have notoriously bad health (as in: We die earlier), but the Swedes and Norwegians are sicker than we are.

]]> By: Gdr http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/comment-page-1/#comment-217869 Gdr Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:30:39 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/10/the-underbelly-of-the-nordic-model/#comment-217869 The UK's example suggests that the rate of fraud and error is to some extent a feature of the benefits system, not of the culture. According to the UK Department of Work and Pensions, the rate of fraud and error in Job Seeker's Allowance and Income Support was around 10% in 1997–1998, but fell to around 5% in 2005–2006 as a result of fairly aggressive target setting by the government. No doubt this change has negative consequences for benefit recipients, for example more difficulty claiming benefits, and increased bureaucratic intrusion. And I'm pretty sure some of the fraud has merely been pushed around the system into other areas like Housing Benefit (where fraud and error have increased slightly over the same period) and Disability Living Allowance. But I don't think British attitudes to benefit fraud have changed much over the last ten years. The UK’s example suggests that the rate of fraud and error is to some extent a feature of the benefits system, not of the culture.

According to the UK Department of Work and Pensions, the rate of fraud and error in Job Seeker’s Allowance and Income Support was around 10% in 1997–1998, but fell to around 5% in 2005–2006 as a result of fairly aggressive target setting by the government.

No doubt this change has negative consequences for benefit recipients, for example more difficulty claiming benefits, and increased bureaucratic intrusion. And I’m pretty sure some of the fraud has merely been pushed around the system into other areas like Housing Benefit (where fraud and error have increased slightly over the same period) and Disability Living Allowance. But I don’t think British attitudes to benefit fraud have changed much over the last ten years.

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