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	<title>Comments on: Response</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/13/response-3/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: William Newman</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/13/response-3/comment-page-1/#comment-218286</link>
		<dc:creator>William Newman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2007 17:03:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/13/response-3/#comment-218286</guid>
		<description>Dani Rodrik writes &quot;But the point I am making in the book is precisely that such a system is in the interest of both advanced countries and developing nations --- because it is the only one that can sustain the type of globalization that actually benefits them! &quot;

Necessarily the *only* way? And everyone will cooperate effectively to achieve it because everyone will agree with you about that even down to all the gritty details?

It seems reasonable for Drezner to look for more consideration of incentives than this. He can&#039;t reasonably expect you to slavishly follow his house style of analysis of incentives, or anything like that: an interesting alternative would be a crushing counterattack against thinking in the shallow Federalist Papers tradition when history has long been understood to show no useful pattern of organizations following analyzable incentives. But whatever argument you choose to make, his point deserves a more serious reply. Even if the exclamation point had been conveniently available for use in the 18th century, it wouldn&#039;t&#039;ve been enough to predict the Constitution going down in flames &quot;because rich and poor and north and south can all see that cooperating effectively against ratification is the only way that they can sustain the type of Confederation that actually benefits them!&quot; 

&quot;Something that advances your interest is incentive compatible, no?&quot; I&#039;m no expert, but I will guess that for at least one commonly used definition the answer is &quot;no.&quot; Even just lumping individual interests together through voting mechanisms seems to make questions like that quite tricky. And the real world is complicated by other things, too, like the limited rationality of actors. (You may have noticed that even though now that you have demonstrated that yours the only way to sustain the kind of globalization that benefits them, not everyone has internalized it yet.:-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Dani Rodrik writes &#8220;But the point I am making in the book is precisely that such a system is in the interest of both advanced countries and developing nations&#8212;- because it is the only one that can sustain the type of globalization that actually benefits them! &#8221;</p>

	<p>Necessarily the <strong>only</strong> way? And everyone will cooperate effectively to achieve it because everyone will agree with you about that even down to all the gritty details?</p>

	<p>It seems reasonable for Drezner to look for more consideration of incentives than this. He can&#8217;t reasonably expect you to slavishly follow his house style of analysis of incentives, or anything like that: an interesting alternative would be a crushing counterattack against thinking in the shallow Federalist Papers tradition when history has long been understood to show no useful pattern of organizations following analyzable incentives. But whatever argument you choose to make, his point deserves a more serious reply. Even if the exclamation point had been conveniently available for use in the 18th century, it wouldn&#8217;t&#8217;ve been enough to predict the Constitution going down in flames &#8220;because rich and poor and north and south can all see that cooperating effectively against ratification is the only way that they can sustain the type of Confederation that actually benefits them!&#8221;</p>

	<p>&#8220;Something that advances your interest is incentive compatible, no?&#8221; I&#8217;m no expert, but I will guess that for at least one commonly used definition the answer is &#8220;no.&#8221; Even just lumping individual interests together through voting mechanisms seems to make questions like that quite tricky. And the real world is complicated by other things, too, like the limited rationality of actors. (You may have noticed that even though now that you have demonstrated that yours the only way to sustain the kind of globalization that benefits them, not everyone has internalized it yet.:-)</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/13/response-3/comment-page-1/#comment-218137</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:14:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/13/response-3/#comment-218137</guid>
		<description>er, mq, not pj.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>er, mq, not pj.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/13/response-3/comment-page-1/#comment-218136</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:13:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/13/response-3/#comment-218136</guid>
		<description>pj-

Right. As I suggested in response to Henry&#039;s kick-off post, these seminars would generate much better discussions if they were spread out over a week instead of being posted all at once.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>pj-</p>

	<p>Right. As I suggested in response to Henry&#8217;s kick-off post, these seminars would generate much better discussions if they were spread out over a week instead of being posted all at once.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: mq</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/13/response-3/comment-page-1/#comment-218135</link>
		<dc:creator>mq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:08:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Oh, and one reason these round tables might not get enough commentary is that the comments are split between too many different threads. Hard to find where the relevant conversation is happening.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oh, and one reason these round tables might not get enough commentary is that the comments are split between too many different threads. Hard to find where the relevant conversation is happening.</p>
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		<title>By: mq</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/13/response-3/comment-page-1/#comment-218134</link>
		<dc:creator>mq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:07:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/13/response-3/#comment-218134</guid>
		<description>Comment #1 is very interesting. Is it clear enough what needs to be done in practice, so that we don&#039;t need to approach problems using theoretical framing devices? Are the mental models that come out of ordinary experience superior or inferior to ones that have been worked over to be internally consistent with a grand theory of how societies function? Is that a general problem with social theorizing vs. attention to the particular, or is it unique to economics because of e.g. methodological individualism or excessive abstraction?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Comment #1 is very interesting. Is it clear enough what needs to be done in practice, so that we don&#8217;t need to approach problems using theoretical framing devices? Are the mental models that come out of ordinary experience superior or inferior to ones that have been worked over to be internally consistent with a grand theory of how societies function? Is that a general problem with social theorizing vs. attention to the particular, or is it unique to economics because of e.g. methodological individualism or excessive abstraction?</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/13/response-3/comment-page-1/#comment-218129</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 18:56:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/13/response-3/#comment-218129</guid>
		<description>I actually hold off with my comments around here sometimes just because I&#039;m not really part of the argument, but people are being so cautious that the threads are dying.

It strikes me that Hodgson&#039;s &quot;How Economics Forgot History&quot; and Dennis Wrong&#039;s &quot;The Persistence of the Particular&quot; are relevant here, at least for someone who is less interested in remaining within the orthodoxy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I actually hold off with my comments around here sometimes just because I&#8217;m not really part of the argument, but people are being so cautious that the threads are dying.</p>

	<p>It strikes me that Hodgson&#8217;s &#8220;How Economics Forgot History&#8221; and Dennis Wrong&#8217;s &#8220;The Persistence of the Particular&#8221; are relevant here, at least for someone who is less interested in remaining within the orthodoxy.</p>
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		<title>By: dsquared</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/13/response-3/comment-page-1/#comment-218114</link>
		<dc:creator>dsquared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 12:33:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/13/response-3/#comment-218114</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;It is still the case that the concept clarifies what we should do in practice &lt;/i&gt;

I don&#039;t think it does - or at least, not to anyone except a neoclassical economist (hence my crack about neoclassical economics as being only useful as a means of communicating with neoclassical economists).  As I said in my piece, I think that even thinking about distortions and reforms in terms of shadow prices is potentially misleading, and thinking in terms of those shadow prices as Lagrange multipliers encourages a mental model of the economy that isn&#039;t actually very realistic.  

The institutional search for &quot;what we should do in practice&quot; is actually very clear and doesn&#039;t need clarifying.  The fact that it needs to be forced into a particular means of expression in order to convince economists who have been trained a certain way, just means that we need to stop training economists that way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>It is still the case that the concept clarifies what we should do in practice </i></p>

	<p>I don&#8217;t think it does &#8211; or at least, not to anyone except a neoclassical economist (hence my crack about neoclassical economics as being only useful as a means of communicating with neoclassical economists).  As I said in my piece, I think that even thinking about distortions and reforms in terms of shadow prices is potentially misleading, and thinking in terms of those shadow prices as Lagrange multipliers encourages a mental model of the economy that isn&#8217;t actually very realistic.</p>

	<p>The institutional search for &#8220;what we should do in practice&#8221; is actually very clear and doesn&#8217;t need clarifying.  The fact that it needs to be forced into a particular means of expression in order to convince economists who have been trained a certain way, just means that we need to stop training economists that way.</p>
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