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	<title>Comments on: Busty barmaids and other developments in science</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Lynn Gazis-Sax</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/comment-page-2/#comment-218481</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynn Gazis-Sax</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 05:01:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/#comment-218481</guid>
		<description>FWIW, I think women genuinely vary in how much they care about penis size, relative to other things (slow hand, easy touch, whatever).  Some care a lot, some not much at all.  But I doubt many of us sleep with a sufficient representative sample of men of all races that we&#039;d have any way of knowing from personal experience who&#039;s statistically better endowed.  Let alone measure lots of men&#039;s flaccid penises.  Even when we engage in team sports :-).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><span class="caps">FWIW</span>, I think women genuinely vary in how much they care about penis size, relative to other things (slow hand, easy touch, whatever).  Some care a lot, some not much at all.  But I doubt many of us sleep with a sufficient representative sample of men of all races that we&#8217;d have any way of knowing from personal experience who&#8217;s statistically better endowed.  Let alone measure lots of men&#8217;s flaccid penises.  Even when we engage in team sports :-).</p>
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		<title>By: Danielle Day</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/comment-page-2/#comment-218405</link>
		<dc:creator>Danielle Day</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:01:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/#comment-218405</guid>
		<description>How long will it be before expressions such as &quot;FWIW&quot; (&quot;for what it&#039;s worth&quot;), &quot;IMHO&quot; (&quot;in my humble opinion&quot;), and &quot;MILF&quot; (moms I&#039;d like to play soccer with) enter the dictionaries as uncapitalized versions meaning exactly what the acronyms mean? WYSIWYG (&quot;whizzy-wig&quot;) has.

And, FWIW, I dispute the findings of Masters and Johnson. Mr. D. is on the large side-- both coming and going. Women who maintain that they don&#039;t enjoy this are (usually) just being nice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>How long will it be before expressions such as &#8220;FWIW&#8221; (&#8220;for what it&#8217;s worth&#8221;), &#8220;IMHO&#8221; (&#8220;in my humble opinion&#8221;), and &#8220;MILF&#8221; (moms I&#8217;d like to play soccer with) enter the dictionaries as uncapitalized versions meaning exactly what the acronyms mean? <span class="caps">WYSIWYG </span>(&#8220;whizzy-wig&#8221;) has.</p>

	<p>And, <span class="caps">FWIW</span>, I dispute the findings of Masters and Johnson. Mr. D. is on the large side&#8212;both coming and going. Women who maintain that they don&#8217;t enjoy this are (usually) just being nice.</p>
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		<title>By: &#187; More breakthru&#8217;s from evo-psych</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/comment-page-2/#comment-218341</link>
		<dc:creator>&#187; More breakthru&#8217;s from evo-psych</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:19:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/#comment-218341</guid>
		<description>[...] Busty barmaids and other developments in science This week in evolutionary psychology fun and games (and via Marginal Revolution), I engage in the most shameless piece of dumpster-diving yet. A commenter on last week’s post picked me up for a tendency to pluck out the most ridiculous things I can find and present them as representative of the entire field of evolutionary psychology, rather in the manner of those irritating “Crazzzeeeee Postmodernists!” articles that you used to find in the National Review during the 1980s (or on “Butterflies and Wheels” now). I suspect that commenter is unlikely to be impressed with the latest find, because it comes from that world-renowned centre of evolutionary genetics research, the Cornell University School of Hotel Administration. On that age old question of “Do Sexy Waitresses Get More Tips?”. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] Busty barmaids and other developments in science This week in evolutionary psychology fun and games (and via Marginal Revolution), I engage in the most shameless piece of dumpster-diving yet. A commenter on last week&#8217;s post picked me up for a tendency to pluck out the most ridiculous things I can find and present them as representative of the entire field of evolutionary psychology, rather in the manner of those irritating &#8220;Crazzzeeeee Postmodernists!&#8221; articles that you used to find in the National Review during the 1980s (or on &#8220;Butterflies and Wheels&#8221; now). I suspect that commenter is unlikely to be impressed with the latest find, because it comes from that world-renowned centre of evolutionary genetics research, the Cornell University School of Hotel Administration. On that age old question of &#8220;Do Sexy Waitresses Get More Tips?&#8221;. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Frank</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/comment-page-2/#comment-218308</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 09:46:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/#comment-218308</guid>
		<description>&#039;..a lactating woman is not your best bet, reproductively speaking.&#039;

Many of the men who display exorbitant enthusiasm about big boobs, affect revulsion at the sight of a woman breastfeeding in public.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8216;..a lactating woman is not your best bet, reproductively speaking.&#8217;</p>

	<p>Many of the men who display exorbitant enthusiasm about big boobs, affect revulsion at the sight of a woman breastfeeding in public.</p>
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		<title>By: Lynn Gazis-Sax</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/comment-page-2/#comment-218307</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynn Gazis-Sax</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 07:44:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/#comment-218307</guid>
		<description>78, I suppose Masters and Johnson were looking at what would influence women&#039;s choices, rather than what would influence men&#039;s fears.  Most of us women don&#039;t have reason to examine the flaccid penis size of all that many men.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>78, I suppose Masters and Johnson were looking at what would influence women&#8217;s choices, rather than what would influence men&#8217;s fears.  Most of us women don&#8217;t have reason to examine the flaccid penis size of all that many men.</p>
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		<title>By: emjaybee</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/comment-page-2/#comment-218304</link>
		<dc:creator>emjaybee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 04:02:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/#comment-218304</guid>
		<description>The &quot;big breasts=lactation=fertility&quot; idea is completely off--lactating women are *less* fertile. Extended breast feeding is actually a mildly effective form of birth control. So a lactating woman is not your best bet, reproductively speaking.

What about the idea that big breasts are not so much about sex as food--as an infant, you sought out a (to you) enormous breast in order to survive. Maybe  the sight of a large breast triggers an infantile instinct.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The &#8220;big breasts=lactation=fertility&#8221; idea is completely off&#8212;lactating women are <strong>less</strong> fertile. Extended breast feeding is actually a mildly effective form of birth control. So a lactating woman is not your best bet, reproductively speaking.</p>

	<p>What about the idea that big breasts are not so much about sex as food&#8212;as an infant, you sought out a (to you) enormous breast in order to survive. Maybe  the sight of a large breast triggers an infantile instinct.</p>
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		<title>By: vivian</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/comment-page-2/#comment-218302</link>
		<dc:creator>vivian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 02:14:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/#comment-218302</guid>
		<description>If men were so hardwired to love reproducing on such a large scale, then there would be no (evolutionary, just-so-story) need for orgasms to be so good. &quot;Clearly&quot; they were a factor determining how much sex - and children - men have. So handwavingly, men clearly prefer free orgasms - ones that don&#039;t lead to children to feed and shelter. Now as noted above several times, nursing tends to increase the sag factor. So gravity-defying breasts can be a (weak) indicator of &lt;i&gt;lack&lt;/i&gt; of fertility, so far at least. A woman well-past puberty who hasn&#039;t had kids yet may look like a great reward-to-risk ratio for someone thinking with the helper-brain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If men were so hardwired to love reproducing on such a large scale, then there would be no (evolutionary, just-so-story) need for orgasms to be so good. &#8220;Clearly&#8221; they were a factor determining how much sex &#8211; and children &#8211; men have. So handwavingly, men clearly prefer free orgasms &#8211; ones that don&#8217;t lead to children to feed and shelter. Now as noted above several times, nursing tends to increase the sag factor. So gravity-defying breasts can be a (weak) indicator of <i>lack</i> of fertility, so far at least. A woman well-past puberty who hasn&#8217;t had kids yet may look like a great reward-to-risk ratio for someone thinking with the helper-brain.</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/comment-page-2/#comment-218300</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2007 23:54:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/#comment-218300</guid>
		<description>75: Donne was an Anglican though. Marot was, in theory, a Calvinist. 

This was before the lines had hardened. Marot wasn&#039;t completely happy in Geneva, and he didn&#039;t stay long.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>75: Donne was an Anglican though. Marot was, in theory, a Calvinist.</p>

	<p>This was before the lines had hardened. Marot wasn&#8217;t completely happy in Geneva, and he didn&#8217;t stay long.</p>
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		<title>By: nu</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/comment-page-2/#comment-218294</link>
		<dc:creator>nu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2007 21:22:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/#comment-218294</guid>
		<description>did i miss it or nobody mentionned the oedipian explanation ?
i mean what if men (and women) like breasts because until very recently, most of us spent the first years of our life sucking on them for food or something ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>did i miss it or nobody mentionned the oedipian explanation ?<br />
i mean what if men (and women) like breasts because until very recently, most of us spent the first years of our life sucking on them for food or something ?</p>
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		<title>By: George</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/comment-page-2/#comment-218290</link>
		<dc:creator>George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2007 20:01:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/#comment-218290</guid>
		<description>When is the companion study coming out?

&lt;i&gt;The Determinants and Consequences of Male Unattractiveness and Sexual Aggression: Realistic Tests with Restaurant Waitresses&lt;/i&gt;

Anytime soon?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>When is the companion study coming out?</p>

	<p><i>The Determinants and Consequences of Male Unattractiveness and Sexual Aggression: Realistic Tests with Restaurant Waitresses</i></p>

	<p>Anytime soon?</p>
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		<title>By: PJ</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/comment-page-2/#comment-218289</link>
		<dc:creator>PJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:20:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/#comment-218289</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;&quot;IIRC, it’s been pretty well established that, after you control for ethnic group, the ratio of breast size to the rest of the body is actually a very good measure of fertility potential. Even though most of the breast is fat, the amount of that fat is pretty strongly regulated by estrogen levels and nutrition during puberty.&quot;&lt;/em&gt;

I&#039;ve heard this claimed a few times recently - probably derived from &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&amp;Cmd=ShowDetailView&amp;TermToSearch=15306344&amp;ordinalpos=1&amp;itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; - but, while my reproductive endocrinology is a little rusty, oestrogen is hardly the main determinant of female fertility (once it is in the normal range obviously). The above study refers to a paper finding mid-follicular levels of oestrogen correlate with &lt;em&gt;cycles&lt;/em&gt; which lead to conception, but the above paper does not measure mid-follicular oestrogen and finds that luteal but not other oestrogen measures correlates (rather weakly, ~.2) with breast size. Unfortunately it gives no data on whether women with low levels of oestrogen are less fertile since it concentrates on cycles, not women (pooling the data together), and the data from the luteal phase is obviously uninterpretable in this context because of the hormonal effects of pregnancy. 

Given the length of human gestation, the adverse effects of pregnancy and multiparity, and the relative ease with which women without fertility problems conceive I&#039;d be surprised if the putative weak relationship between breast size and the effect of higher oestrogen levels on fertility was a significant determinant of female fertility versus say the significant effect of anovulation and problems with tubal patency.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>&#8220;IIRC, it&#8217;s been pretty well established that, after you control for ethnic group, the ratio of breast size to the rest of the body is actually a very good measure of fertility potential. Even though most of the breast is fat, the amount of that fat is pretty strongly regulated by estrogen levels and nutrition during puberty.&#8221;</em></p>

	<p>I&#8217;ve heard this claimed a few times recently &#8211; probably derived from <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&#038;Cmd=ShowDetailView&#038;TermToSearch=15306344&#038;ordinalpos=1&#038;itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum" rel="nofollow">this</a> &#8211; but, while my reproductive endocrinology is a little rusty, oestrogen is hardly the main determinant of female fertility (once it is in the normal range obviously). The above study refers to a paper finding mid-follicular levels of oestrogen correlate with <em>cycles</em> which lead to conception, but the above paper does not measure mid-follicular oestrogen and finds that luteal but not other oestrogen measures correlates (rather weakly, ~.2) with breast size. Unfortunately it gives no data on whether women with low levels of oestrogen are less fertile since it concentrates on cycles, not women (pooling the data together), and the data from the luteal phase is obviously uninterpretable in this context because of the hormonal effects of pregnancy.</p>

	<p>Given the length of human gestation, the adverse effects of pregnancy and multiparity, and the relative ease with which women without fertility problems conceive I&#8217;d be surprised if the putative weak relationship between breast size and the effect of higher oestrogen levels on fertility was a significant determinant of female fertility versus say the significant effect of anovulation and problems with tubal patency.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Webb</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/comment-page-2/#comment-218288</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Webb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:19:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/#comment-218288</guid>
		<description>I have never dared put this particular theory forward but since we are both talking containers and penises maybe it can work.

There is a persistent cultural meme that black men have larger cocks and asian men smaller with white guys coming (pun intended) in between. Well Masters and Johnson seemed to debunk that idea in their sexual survey as published in their 1966 study. When you actually measured erect cocks the differences became statistically meaningless. But heterosexual men by and large don&#039;t measure themselves against other men by erect size, they don&#039;t see it and mostly don&#039;t want to see it. What they do know is the ratio between their own cock in flaccid stage and what it looks like erect and it is only natural to think that ratio is true for everyone. So when you are showering next to a guy whose flaccid member is inches longer than yours the logical assumption is that when pumped up it will be proportionally larger. This turns out on scientific examination to not be true, but then again in centuries past who was checking?

Because people who insist that black guys on average don&#039;t have larger flaccid cocks have simply not been in the military or engaged in team sports. An amazing amount of history can be reinterpreted in terms of men not understanding the actual ratio of flaccid/erect across races and cultures.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I have never dared put this particular theory forward but since we are both talking containers and penises maybe it can work.</p>

	<p>There is a persistent cultural meme that black men have larger cocks and asian men smaller with white guys coming (pun intended) in between. Well Masters and Johnson seemed to debunk that idea in their sexual survey as published in their 1966 study. When you actually measured erect cocks the differences became statistically meaningless. But heterosexual men by and large don&#8217;t measure themselves against other men by erect size, they don&#8217;t see it and mostly don&#8217;t want to see it. What they do know is the ratio between their own cock in flaccid stage and what it looks like erect and it is only natural to think that ratio is true for everyone. So when you are showering next to a guy whose flaccid member is inches longer than yours the logical assumption is that when pumped up it will be proportionally larger. This turns out on scientific examination to not be true, but then again in centuries past who was checking?</p>

	<p>Because people who insist that black guys on average don&#8217;t have larger flaccid cocks have simply not been in the military or engaged in team sports. An amazing amount of history can be reinterpreted in terms of men not understanding the actual ratio of flaccid/erect across races and cultures.</p>
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		<title>By: links for 2007-11-17 &#124; Prof Ron&#8217;s Test Area</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/comment-page-2/#comment-218287</link>
		<dc:creator>links for 2007-11-17 &#124; Prof Ron&#8217;s Test Area</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2007 18:27:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/#comment-218287</guid>
		<description>[...] Busty barmaids and other developments in science Scientists ask: Do sexy waitresses get more tips? (tags: research) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] Busty barmaids and other developments in science Scientists ask: Do sexy waitresses get more tips? (tags: research) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Frank</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/comment-page-2/#comment-218284</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2007 09:38:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/#comment-218284</guid>
		<description>I find big breasted waitresses overfacing.  I don&#039;t know where to look i.e. my sexual response is inconvenient---especially if I am with my wife and daughters.  If I tip extravagantly, after a  display of cleavage, it is probably for the same reason that unsolicited performances of music always elicit my small change.  I can brush away a single rose, or an &quot;african carving&quot;, when offered .  What I can&#039;t return, to their vendors, is:  sexual display; musical performance--not unless I get my whistle out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I find big breasted waitresses overfacing.  I don&#8217;t know where to look i.e. my sexual response is inconvenient&#8212;-especially if I am with my wife and daughters.  If I tip extravagantly, after a  display of cleavage, it is probably for the same reason that unsolicited performances of music always elicit my small change.  I can brush away a single rose, or an &#8220;african carving&#8221;, when offered .  What I can&#8217;t return, to their vendors, is:  sexual display; musical performance&#8212;not unless I get my whistle out.</p>
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		<title>By: Lynn Gazis-Sax</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/comment-page-2/#comment-218282</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynn Gazis-Sax</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2007 06:27:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/16/busty-barmaids-and-other-developments-in-science/#comment-218282</guid>
		<description>16, well, my Just So story about why men like female breasts &lt;b&gt;so much&lt;/b&gt; is that it encourages them to spend sufficient time stimulating them to make sex more fun for the woman.  After all, if I&#039;m going to pick a Just So story, I&#039;d like to pick one that favors men being good in bed :-).

34, maybe the French aren&#039;t all that different, when you think of the career of John Donne.

69, well, you have to consider that cultures with arranged marriages do have a certain amount of adultery, so sexual attractiveness still has some value in maximizing your offspring, even if much attenuated relative to those cultures where you can choose your own spouse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>16, well, my Just So story about why men like female breasts <b>so much</b> is that it encourages them to spend sufficient time stimulating them to make sex more fun for the woman.  After all, if I&#8217;m going to pick a Just So story, I&#8217;d like to pick one that favors men being good in bed :-).</p>

	<p>34, maybe the French aren&#8217;t all that different, when you think of the career of John Donne.</p>

	<p>69, well, you have to consider that cultures with arranged marriages do have a certain amount of adultery, so sexual attractiveness still has some value in maximizing your offspring, even if much attenuated relative to those cultures where you can choose your own spouse.</p>
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