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	<title>Comments on: Google&#8217;s new venture is like &#8220;trying to start a new waste management firm on Tony Soprano&#8217;s street&#8221;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Luis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/comment-page-1/#comment-218566</link>
		<dc:creator>Luis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:10:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/#comment-218566</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The worry is that an open phone is not much comfort if your data is all stored by closed web services.&lt;/i&gt;

To be more specific, the philosophical goal of free software is to increase user autonomy. If your phone has free software which speaks only to closed services, not much autonomy is gained, because your data (and in the facebook/myspace case, your online identity) is in the end controlled by another party over whom you have very little leverage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>The worry is that an open phone is not much comfort if your data is all stored by closed web services.</i></p>

	<p>To be more specific, the philosophical goal of free software is to increase user autonomy. If your phone has free software which speaks only to closed services, not much autonomy is gained, because your data (and in the facebook/myspace case, your online identity) is in the end controlled by another party over whom you have very little leverage.</p>
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		<title>By: S</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/comment-page-1/#comment-218563</link>
		<dc:creator>S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:04:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/#comment-218563</guid>
		<description>One thing that I think Google is working hard at is ensuring that consumers know that their data is not &quot;locked up&quot; inside Google the way it is with some other web/PC software companies. They&#039;ll happily store/index your information, but they&#039;ve worked really well to create open interfaces for export and import to standard formats (email access, document export, photo export, etc).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>One thing that I think Google is working hard at is ensuring that consumers know that their data is not &#8220;locked up&#8221; inside Google the way it is with some other web/PC software companies. They&#8217;ll happily store/index your information, but they&#8217;ve worked really well to create open interfaces for export and import to standard formats (email access, document export, photo export, etc).</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/comment-page-1/#comment-218553</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:19:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/#comment-218553</guid>
		<description>Slocum, yes, that&#039;s exactly what I&#039;m saying; the only way for them to make money is to sell ads. 

I&#039;m not so sure about them selling your personal information to a third party, it might be illegal. They&#039;ll probably use it to fine-tune their ads for you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Slocum, yes, that&#8217;s exactly what I&#8217;m saying; the only way for them to make money is to sell ads.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m not so sure about them selling your personal information to a third party, it might be illegal. They&#8217;ll probably use it to fine-tune their ads for you.</p>
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		<title>By: voyou</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/comment-page-1/#comment-218550</link>
		<dc:creator>voyou</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:56:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/#comment-218550</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;By that point people will be so invested in GoogleWorld (using it for all their email, documents, phone books, files, photographs, software, social networking, blogs etc), that changing will be hard; and even if you do switch, they still have a copy of all your data.&lt;/em&gt;

This is entirely on the money. The problem with Android is less likely that it won&#039;t really be open; an open source phone stack is a perfectly good free razor for Google to use to sell razor blades (i.e., its ad-revenue-generating web services). The worry is that an open phone is not much comfort if your data is all stored by closed web services. This isn&#039;t just a problem with Google, of course, it applies to Facebook, MySpace and lots of &quot;Web 2.0&quot; stuff.

There&#039;s a small but growing group of people in the free software world thinking about how the principles of open-ness that guide free software could be applied to web services. See, for instance, &lt;a href=&quot;http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/07/22/evaluating-a-freeopen-service-definition-rough-draft/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Luis Villa&#039;s attempt to define &quot;Open Services&quot;&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>By that point people will be so invested in GoogleWorld (using it for all their email, documents, phone books, files, photographs, software, social networking, blogs etc), that changing will be hard; and even if you do switch, they still have a copy of all your data.</em></p>

	<p>This is entirely on the money. The problem with Android is less likely that it won&#8217;t really be open; an open source phone stack is a perfectly good free razor for Google to use to sell razor blades (i.e., its ad-revenue-generating web services). The worry is that an open phone is not much comfort if your data is all stored by closed web services. This isn&#8217;t just a problem with Google, of course, it applies to Facebook, MySpace and lots of &#8220;Web 2.0&#8221; stuff.</p>

	<p>There&#8217;s a small but growing group of people in the free software world thinking about how the principles of open-ness that guide free software could be applied to web services. See, for instance, <a href="http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/07/22/evaluating-a-freeopen-service-definition-rough-draft/" rel="nofollow">Luis Villa&#8217;s attempt to define &#8220;Open Services&#8221;</a></p>
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		<title>By: Slocum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/comment-page-1/#comment-218531</link>
		<dc:creator>Slocum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:45:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/#comment-218531</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I got nothing against google, but once you allow opensource software and get real competition going among the service providers – then, I reckon, there’s simply no money to be made off this gadget. Something has to give.&lt;/i&gt;

Huh?  Google makes vast sums of money on an open source platform with real competition.  You can run any web browser on any computing platform and as long as you use google.com for searches (with Google ads) and google is perfectly happy.  

So google has every reason to believe it could make money in an open phone platform environment, but also reason to worry that companies like Verizon (all your ring tones are belong to us) will use control over closed platforms to monopolize the business.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I got nothing against google, but once you allow opensource software and get real competition going among the service providers &#8211; then, I reckon, there&#8217;s simply no money to be made off this gadget. Something has to give.</i></p>

	<p>Huh?  Google makes vast sums of money on an open source platform with real competition.  You can run any web browser on any computing platform and as long as you use google.com for searches (with Google ads) and google is perfectly happy.</p>

	<p>So google has every reason to believe it could make money in an open phone platform environment, but also reason to worry that companies like Verizon (all your ring tones are belong to us) will use control over closed platforms to monopolize the business.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Peter Clay</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/comment-page-1/#comment-218530</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Clay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:34:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/#comment-218530</guid>
		<description>The real money for Google will come when they sell out the back end of their database of personal information. By that point people will be so invested in GoogleWorld (using it for all their email, documents, phone books, files, photographs, software, social networking, blogs etc), that changing will be hard; and even if you do switch, they still have a copy of all your data.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The real money for Google will come when they sell out the back end of their database of personal information. By that point people will be so invested in GoogleWorld (using it for all their email, documents, phone books, files, photographs, software, social networking, blogs etc), that changing will be hard; and even if you do switch, they still have a copy of all your data.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: SG</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/comment-page-1/#comment-218506</link>
		<dc:creator>SG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:22:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/#comment-218506</guid>
		<description>I am bothered by the increasing dominance of advertising as a business model in itself. Advertising to me seems parasitic. As a medium for information, not only does advertising have a strong disincentive to tell the truth, but the main means of testing the truth of the information (from buying and using the product) shifts the test of its truthfulness downstream from the producer of the advertising. Combining that with a monopoly like google that bases its profits on free access for those liars seems dangerous. Also, on top of that, advertising generally is the lowest form of culture (outside of the wingnet, anyway) and I do wonder about what it means about our culture that we are so willing to give it the license we have.

I am particularly thinking here of the &quot;live&quot; coverage of AFL in Australia, the way google sends adverts into my email, that sort of thing. I wonder if there is a better model of the internet out there, and we are missing it because the dominance of players like google has prevented us seeing it. And I don&#039;t think a free phone based on advertising is going to help us see the forest for the trees.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I am bothered by the increasing dominance of advertising as a business model in itself. Advertising to me seems parasitic. As a medium for information, not only does advertising have a strong disincentive to tell the truth, but the main means of testing the truth of the information (from buying and using the product) shifts the test of its truthfulness downstream from the producer of the advertising. Combining that with a monopoly like google that bases its profits on free access for those liars seems dangerous. Also, on top of that, advertising generally is the lowest form of culture (outside of the wingnet, anyway) and I do wonder about what it means about our culture that we are so willing to give it the license we have.</p>

	<p>I am particularly thinking here of the &#8220;live&#8221; coverage of <span class="caps">AFL</span> in Australia, the way google sends adverts into my email, that sort of thing. I wonder if there is a better model of the internet out there, and we are missing it because the dominance of players like google has prevented us seeing it. And I don&#8217;t think a free phone based on advertising is going to help us see the forest for the trees.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/comment-page-1/#comment-218420</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 20:02:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/#comment-218420</guid>
		<description>You can&#039;t get (yet) get one in the US, but I believe they are available in some other countries. Certainly their development is a lot farther along than android&#039;s!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>You can&#8217;t get (yet) get one in the US, but I believe they are available in some other countries. Certainly their development is a lot farther along than android&#8217;s!</p>
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		<title>By: tom s.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/comment-page-1/#comment-218419</link>
		<dc:creator>tom s.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:48:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/#comment-218419</guid>
		<description>matt - in what way is Google making a platform for open development? The Android SDK does not look particularly open to me - any more than various Microsoft SDKs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>matt &#8211; in what way is Google making a platform for open development? The Android <span class="caps">SDK</span> does not look particularly open to me &#8211; any more than various Microsoft SDKs.</p>
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		<title>By: Colin Danby</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/comment-page-1/#comment-218418</link>
		<dc:creator>Colin Danby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:47:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/#comment-218418</guid>
		<description>Re #9, how do I get a Linux phone?  I did a quick search but see nothing consumer-ready.

Neel at #12 seems right on all points.  Matt at #15 merits a better response.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Re #9, how do I get a Linux phone?  I did a quick search but see nothing consumer-ready.</p>

	<p>Neel at #12 seems right on all points.  Matt at #15 merits a better response.</p>
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		<title>By: uptown</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/comment-page-1/#comment-218414</link>
		<dc:creator>uptown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:22:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/#comment-218414</guid>
		<description>Got to spend their billions somewhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Got to spend their billions somewhere.</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/comment-page-1/#comment-218412</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:06:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/#comment-218412</guid>
		<description>Matt, complaints about shallow Google hatred is much less compelling when followed by shallow Linux hatred.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Matt, complaints about shallow Google hatred is much less compelling when followed by shallow Linux hatred.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/comment-page-1/#comment-218411</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:04:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/#comment-218411</guid>
		<description>I got nothing against google, but once you allow opensource software and get real competition going among the service providers - then, I reckon, there&#039;s simply no money to be made off this gadget. Something has to give.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I got nothing against google, but once you allow opensource software and get real competition going among the service providers &#8211; then, I reckon, there&#8217;s simply no money to be made off this gadget. Something has to give.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Kuzma</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/comment-page-1/#comment-218409</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Kuzma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:52:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/#comment-218409</guid>
		<description>I sense a lot of really shallow Google-hate in the comments so far.  The openness is not a shell game; they really are making a platform for open development.  There are no hidden biases towards their products, and if they deploy a mobile application with obtrusive ads, a rival application will soon replace it.  Google really does encourage competition in exactly the way that Microsoft and the Bells stifle it.  The various Google products to date have been so successful precisely because they are good and while they have ads and they make Google a lot of money, the market really has demonstrated that, on balance, Google&#039;s solutions are better.

As for why this is better than Linux, it has everything to do with market share.  You only get good apps if you have a critical mass of developers and consumers to create a vibrant market.  In its entire history, Linux has failed to do that and it still isn&#039;t a real solution, especially not in the mobile world.  You may be happy as can be with a Linux phone, but the fact is that most people won&#039;t be.  Android will fulfill all the potential that Linux could never realize because its development community and user base is peopled entirely by arrogant snobs who can&#039;t be bothered to make things accessible to the common user.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I sense a lot of really shallow Google-hate in the comments so far.  The openness is not a shell game; they really are making a platform for open development.  There are no hidden biases towards their products, and if they deploy a mobile application with obtrusive ads, a rival application will soon replace it.  Google really does encourage competition in exactly the way that Microsoft and the Bells stifle it.  The various Google products to date have been so successful precisely because they are good and while they have ads and they make Google a lot of money, the market really has demonstrated that, on balance, Google&#8217;s solutions are better.</p>

	<p>As for why this is better than Linux, it has everything to do with market share.  You only get good apps if you have a critical mass of developers and consumers to create a vibrant market.  In its entire history, Linux has failed to do that and it still isn&#8217;t a real solution, especially not in the mobile world.  You may be happy as can be with a Linux phone, but the fact is that most people won&#8217;t be.  Android will fulfill all the potential that Linux could never realize because its development community and user base is peopled entirely by arrogant snobs who can&#8217;t be bothered to make things accessible to the common user.</p>
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		<title>By: tom s.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/comment-page-1/#comment-218407</link>
		<dc:creator>tom s.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:45:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/19/googles-new-venture-is-like-trying-to-start-a-new-waste-management-firm-on-tony-sopranos-street/#comment-218407</guid>
		<description>Google is a monopoly-in-the-making and will inevitably take on the characteristics of those other monopolies it displaces. Their talk of openness and friendliness comes to a halt when it comes to things you would think innocuous like talking about how much water it takes to cool their servers. More 
&lt;a href=&quot;http://whimsley.typepad.com/whimsley/2007/05/believe_the_opp.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Google is a monopoly-in-the-making and will inevitably take on the characteristics of those other monopolies it displaces. Their talk of openness and friendliness comes to a halt when it comes to things you would think innocuous like talking about how much water it takes to cool their servers. More<br />
<a href="http://whimsley.typepad.com/whimsley/2007/05/believe_the_opp.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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