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	<title>Comments on: The Monkey Wrench Gang</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/the-monkey-wrench-gang/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: faux facsimile</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/the-monkey-wrench-gang/comment-page-1/#comment-219564</link>
		<dc:creator>faux facsimile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 01:20:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/the-monkey-wrench-gang/#comment-219564</guid>
		<description>Edward Abbey&#039;s ghost is banging on your server and he wants his gang back. Unless you&#039;re planning some criminal anarchy on that new blog of yours. In which case it&#039;d be okay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Edward Abbey&#8217;s ghost is banging on your server and he wants his gang back. Unless you&#8217;re planning some criminal anarchy on that new blog of yours. In which case it&#8217;d be okay.</p>
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		<title>By: Fred</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/the-monkey-wrench-gang/comment-page-1/#comment-219525</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:28:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/the-monkey-wrench-gang/#comment-219525</guid>
		<description>Cost of war:
Children not born because the future father died:
Value: Zero</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Cost of war:<br />
Children not born because the future father died:<br />
Value: Zero</p>
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		<title>By: Ragout</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/the-monkey-wrench-gang/comment-page-1/#comment-219477</link>
		<dc:creator>Ragout</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 03:41:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/the-monkey-wrench-gang/#comment-219477</guid>
		<description>Well, first of all, there&#039;s an important distinction between the costs of the war and the &quot;long term costs.&quot;  The first are real costs: fighter planes get built instead of passenger planes, tanks instead of cars, soldiers get killed instead of dying of old age.  The long-term costs are mostly just transfers, not economic costs: some people pay taxes to fund others&#039; pensions.

Second, at least for the Civil War and WW1, the long term costs were pensions.  As someone has already pointed out, pensions for Civil War and WW1 veterans made up about as large a percentage of the government budget as Social Security does today.  Today, though, we already have Social Security and soldiers are already entitled to pensions whether they fight or not.  So, if you do the accounting right, retirement benefits aren&#039;t an additional cost of the war.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, first of all, there&#8217;s an important distinction between the costs of the war and the &#8220;long term costs.&#8221;  The first are real costs: fighter planes get built instead of passenger planes, tanks instead of cars, soldiers get killed instead of dying of old age.  The long-term costs are mostly just transfers, not economic costs: some people pay taxes to fund others&#8217; pensions.</p>

	<p>Second, at least for the Civil War and <span class="caps">WW1</span>, the long term costs were pensions.  As someone has already pointed out, pensions for Civil War and <span class="caps">WW1</span> veterans made up about as large a percentage of the government budget as Social Security does today.  Today, though, we already have Social Security and soldiers are already entitled to pensions whether they fight or not.  So, if you do the accounting right, retirement benefits aren&#8217;t an additional cost of the war.</p>
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		<title>By: M. Gordon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/the-monkey-wrench-gang/comment-page-1/#comment-219441</link>
		<dc:creator>M. Gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:35:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/the-monkey-wrench-gang/#comment-219441</guid>
		<description>One difference between this war and the previous war is the extensive use of &quot;contractors&quot; (mercenaries).  Assuming they even get post-war care, it is from their employer, and so the costs are charged to the client (the US) up front.  This, in addition to how much more costly contractors are than troops, probably will tend to front-load the costs of the Iraq war more than other wars, though I&#039;m not sure of the magnitude of that shift.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>One difference between this war and the previous war is the extensive use of &#8220;contractors&#8221; (mercenaries).  Assuming they even get post-war care, it is from their employer, and so the costs are charged to the client (the US) up front.  This, in addition to how much more costly contractors are than troops, probably will tend to front-load the costs of the Iraq war more than other wars, though I&#8217;m not sure of the magnitude of that shift.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/the-monkey-wrench-gang/comment-page-1/#comment-219348</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 18:50:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/the-monkey-wrench-gang/#comment-219348</guid>
		<description>comments are now working over there ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>comments are now working over there &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: c.l. ball</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/the-monkey-wrench-gang/comment-page-1/#comment-219320</link>
		<dc:creator>c.l. ball</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:15:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/the-monkey-wrench-gang/#comment-219320</guid>
		<description>Someone has to tell the monkey cage crew that they need to turn their Typekey comments section on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Someone has to tell the monkey cage crew that they need to turn their Typekey comments section on.</p>
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		<title>By: Hogan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/the-monkey-wrench-gang/comment-page-1/#comment-219308</link>
		<dc:creator>Hogan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 15:38:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/the-monkey-wrench-gang/#comment-219308</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;some portion of that 1.8 is going to be paid regardless of whether there is a war or not.&lt;/i&gt;

Especially since we decided to go to war with the army we had, rather than raise an army appropriate to the task, as we did in the Civil War and WWI/II. It&#039;s not clear that we&#039;ve produced any new veterans this time around.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>some portion of that 1.8 is going to be paid regardless of whether there is a war or not.</i></p>

	<p>Especially since we decided to go to war with the army we had, rather than raise an army appropriate to the task, as we did in the Civil War and <span class="caps">WWI</span>/II. It&#8217;s not clear that we&#8217;ve produced any new veterans this time around.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/the-monkey-wrench-gang/comment-page-1/#comment-219306</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 15:08:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/the-monkey-wrench-gang/#comment-219306</guid>
		<description>Joel - I think you are misunderstanding the question I was asking, which wasn&#039;t &quot;Is the Iraq war likely to be as costly in absolute terms over the long run as previous wars,&quot; but instead, &quot;Is the Iraq war likely to display the same pattern of having a considerably more costly aftermath than fighting phase.&quot; I probably could have phrased it better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Joel &#8211; I think you are misunderstanding the question I was asking, which wasn&#8217;t &#8220;Is the Iraq war likely to be as costly in absolute terms over the long run as previous wars,&#8221; but instead, &#8220;Is the Iraq war likely to display the same pattern of having a considerably more costly aftermath than fighting phase.&#8221; I probably could have phrased it better.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom T.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/the-monkey-wrench-gang/comment-page-1/#comment-219298</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom T.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:56:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/the-monkey-wrench-gang/#comment-219298</guid>
		<description>One other question to ask is to what extent the 1.8 ratio of future benefits over operating costs for wartime veterans differs from the applicable ratio for non-wartime veterans.  I.e., veterans of a standing peacetime armed force incur future benefits as well.  Presumably not as much, but some portion of that 1.8 is going to be paid regardless of whether there is a war or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>One other question to ask is to what extent the 1.8 ratio of future benefits over operating costs for wartime veterans differs from the applicable ratio for non-wartime veterans.  I.e., veterans of a standing peacetime armed force incur future benefits as well.  Presumably not as much, but some portion of that 1.8 is going to be paid regardless of whether there is a war or not.</p>
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		<title>By: joel turnipseed</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/the-monkey-wrench-gang/comment-page-1/#comment-219285</link>
		<dc:creator>joel turnipseed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 07:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/the-monkey-wrench-gang/#comment-219285</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure the question is properly put...

A few quick thoughts:

1) It&#039;s unlikely that even if we fought in Iraq for 20 years that we would approach spending on WWII, either in terms of direct or indirect and subsequent costs; in terms of either dollars spent or lives lost or men wounded.

2) Both our government and our economy are MUCH larger than they&#039;ve ever been. So, if you take something like the GAR after the Civil War or the American Legion after World War One, it&#039;s highly unlikely that veterans will ever again form as effective a political coalition or consume as high a percentage of the national tax base. One reason the 1932 Bonus March was so controversial is that the veterans were demanding $2B in payment--at that time an amount equal to the entire federal budget &amp; at a time when veteran&#039;s benefits consumed something like 40% of the existing federal budget.

3) Even Vietnam positively dwarfed the Iraq War in terms of size and cost. Nearly 8M men &amp; women served in the Vietnam war. I think it&#039;s doubtful that 1M have served thus far in Iraq and Afghanistan (though it may be right around that number)--and again, our country and our economy are much, much bigger than they were 40-odd years ago.

4) Soldiers are paid better and better trained than at any time in our nation&#039;s history. They are backed up by the most sophisticated and expensive weapons and support systems in the history of the human race. They also receive fewer constant-dollar post-service benefits compared to WWII and Vietnam. 

So, even if there is some high number (and there&#039;s reason to believe it&#039;s very high) of wounded soldiers and Marines needing post-war benefits relative to those who served, it&#039;s highly unlikely that these numbers and associated costs would be greater than in other wars. And even if they were... as a percentage of our economy and society, they wouldn&#039;t and couldn&#039;t come close to the impact our previous wars have had--because this is, relatively-speaking, a very small war by comparison.

Finally, all these figures are off the top of my head at 1:30 AM. Feel free to revise/refine... but the gist, I think, will remain just about right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m not sure the question is properly put&#8230;</p>

	<p>A few quick thoughts:</p>

	<p>1) It&#8217;s unlikely that even if we fought in Iraq for 20 years that we would approach spending on <span class="caps">WWII</span>, either in terms of direct or indirect and subsequent costs; in terms of either dollars spent or lives lost or men wounded.</p>

	<p>2) Both our government and our economy are <span class="caps">MUCH</span> larger than they&#8217;ve ever been. So, if you take something like the <span class="caps">GAR</span> after the Civil War or the American Legion after World War One, it&#8217;s highly unlikely that veterans will ever again form as effective a political coalition or consume as high a percentage of the national tax base. One reason the 1932 Bonus March was so controversial is that the veterans were demanding $2B in payment&#8212;at that time an amount equal to the entire federal budget &#038; at a time when veteran&#8217;s benefits consumed something like 40% of the existing federal budget.</p>

	<p>3) Even Vietnam positively dwarfed the Iraq War in terms of size and cost. Nearly 8M men &#038; women served in the Vietnam war. I think it&#8217;s doubtful that 1M have served thus far in Iraq and Afghanistan (though it may be right around that number)&#8212;and again, our country and our economy are much, much bigger than they were 40-odd years ago.</p>

	<p>4) Soldiers are paid better and better trained than at any time in our nation&#8217;s history. They are backed up by the most sophisticated and expensive weapons and support systems in the history of the human race. They also receive fewer constant-dollar post-service benefits compared to <span class="caps">WWII</span> and Vietnam.</p>

	<p>So, even if there is some high number (and there&#8217;s reason to believe it&#8217;s very high) of wounded soldiers and Marines needing post-war benefits relative to those who served, it&#8217;s highly unlikely that these numbers and associated costs would be greater than in other wars. And even if they were&#8230; as a percentage of our economy and society, they wouldn&#8217;t and couldn&#8217;t come close to the impact our previous wars have had&#8212;because this is, relatively-speaking, a very small war by comparison.</p>

	<p>Finally, all these figures are off the top of my head at 1:30 AM. Feel free to revise/refine&#8230; but the gist, I think, will remain just about right.</p>
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		<title>By: SG</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/the-monkey-wrench-gang/comment-page-1/#comment-219284</link>
		<dc:creator>SG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 06:33:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/the-monkey-wrench-gang/#comment-219284</guid>
		<description>I would say that since:

1. health care costs tend to rise faster than inflation

2. this war has a higher rate of casualties to deaths than previous wars

3. the casualties are often more serious and involve novel head injuries

the ratio of veterans benefits costs to war costs ought to be higher after this war. Except that Bush has tried very hard to push down the cost of veterans services.

(And except also that my understanding of 2 and 3 is based on a few things I have read in the newspaper - but that never stopped me giving a wrong opinion before).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I would say that since:</p>

	<p>1. health care costs tend to rise faster than inflation</p>

	<p>2. this war has a higher rate of casualties to deaths than previous wars</p>

	<p>3. the casualties are often more serious and involve novel head injuries</p>

	<p>the ratio of veterans benefits costs to war costs ought to be higher after this war. Except that Bush has tried very hard to push down the cost of veterans services.</p>

	<p>(And except also that my understanding of 2 and 3 is based on a few things I have read in the newspaper &#8211; but that never stopped me giving a wrong opinion before).</p>
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