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	<title>Comments on: White Collar</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: a very public sociologist</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/comment-page-1/#comment-219874</link>
		<dc:creator>a very public sociologist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 22:35:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/#comment-219874</guid>
		<description>You are right Lemuel. Over here it&#039;s bloody difficult trying to get workers into unions unless they have a leadership that proactively fights for their interests.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>You are right Lemuel. Over here it&#8217;s bloody difficult trying to get workers into unions unless they have a leadership that proactively fights for their interests.</p>
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		<title>By: c.l. ball</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/comment-page-1/#comment-219669</link>
		<dc:creator>c.l. ball</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:08:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/#comment-219669</guid>
		<description>While the WGA has benefits and flaws, this is not a story about unions v. management in the usual &quot;labor&quot; sense. If that was the case, the set crews, many of whom might be laid off soon, have an equal claim to make more money off Internet and other revenue streams.

The issue is writers have been compensated in part by salary and in part by residuals -- payments based on how often and in what format the show is rebroadcast or show. In other words, writers take a risk: if the show flops and is never rebroadcast or sold on DVD or VHS, they get no residuals. If the show is popular, they make more money. 

But residuals in the contract-covered markets will likely decline or those that will rise have lower residual percentages, so the writers will likely get paid less in the future. Writers want access or in some  cases larger residuals of the new-market sources. And higher salaries. Actors will demand this, too. 

Of course the writers are being greedy. But so are the producers! 

Keep in mind that writers rarely have guaranteed jobs. They can usually be fired at will, and if their show is canceled, they are out of work. That said, most are doing well (six figure incomes), but if the producers are raking it in, they want a greater share. 

For the lame arguments that producers make, this is great: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFntFDfaf5o&amp;feature=related</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>While the <span class="caps">WGA</span> has benefits and flaws, this is not a story about unions v. management in the usual &#8220;labor&#8221; sense. If that was the case, the set crews, many of whom might be laid off soon, have an equal claim to make more money off Internet and other revenue streams.</p>

	<p>The issue is writers have been compensated in part by salary and in part by residuals&#8212;payments based on how often and in what format the show is rebroadcast or show. In other words, writers take a risk: if the show flops and is never rebroadcast or sold on <span class="caps">DVD</span> or <span class="caps">VHS</span>, they get no residuals. If the show is popular, they make more money.</p>

	<p>But residuals in the contract-covered markets will likely decline or those that will rise have lower residual percentages, so the writers will likely get paid less in the future. Writers want access or in some  cases larger residuals of the new-market sources. And higher salaries. Actors will demand this, too.</p>

	<p>Of course the writers are being greedy. But so are the producers!</p>

	<p>Keep in mind that writers rarely have guaranteed jobs. They can usually be fired at will, and if their show is canceled, they are out of work. That said, most are doing well (six figure incomes), but if the producers are raking it in, they want a greater share.</p>

	<p>For the lame arguments that producers make, this is great: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFntFDfaf5o&#038;feature=related" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFntFDfaf5o&#038;feature=related</a></p>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/comment-page-1/#comment-219448</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 17:53:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/#comment-219448</guid>
		<description>Dunno about the general public, but if you talk to someone who&#039;s done union organizing, the general view is that workers are much less motivated to join a union by specific wage-and-working-conditions issues than by the chance to say &quot;fuck you&quot; to their boss.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Dunno about the general public, but if you talk to someone who&#8217;s done union organizing, the general view is that workers are much less motivated to join a union by specific wage-and-working-conditions issues than by the chance to say &#8220;fuck you&#8221; to their boss.</p>
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		<title>By: a very public sociologist</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/comment-page-1/#comment-219438</link>
		<dc:creator>a very public sociologist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:40:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/#comment-219438</guid>
		<description>If it turns out the Writers&#039; Guild leadership hasn&#039;t got the best deal, does anyone know if there&#039;s much of a mood among the workers to carry on fighting until all their demands have been won?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If it turns out the Writers&#8217; Guild leadership hasn&#8217;t got the best deal, does anyone know if there&#8217;s much of a mood among the workers to carry on fighting until all their demands have been won?</p>
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		<title>By: Miguel Martinez</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/comment-page-1/#comment-219428</link>
		<dc:creator>Miguel Martinez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:25:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/#comment-219428</guid>
		<description>Unions do or don&#039;t matter to the extent that their political functions are or aren&#039;t addressed in the context of the society within which their potential members exist.

In a free market democracy a union is &quot;needed&quot; by the employees or laborers when the membership feels that their desires, concerns, or needs will not be addressed in timely manner by normal market forces, majority will, or current law and practices.  The &quot;need&quot; is in reference to a particular group.  To the other groups that issue may very well not be seen as a &quot;need&quot; until a case for the other groups can be made (if ever).

The 19th century examples are good for showing unions can have a positive function for the general public but it&#039;s important to get to the ultimate point that unions may be able to provide a similar public benefit for contemporary issues.  
It&#039;s probably overstepping things to imply that unions are some sort of caretakers for the general public, however, since initially any particular union is concerned with the conditions faced by its membership with general public needs being either ancillary or even antagonistic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Unions do or don&#8217;t matter to the extent that their political functions are or aren&#8217;t addressed in the context of the society within which their potential members exist.</p>

	<p>In a free market democracy a union is &#8220;needed&#8221; by the employees or laborers when the membership feels that their desires, concerns, or needs will not be addressed in timely manner by normal market forces, majority will, or current law and practices.  The &#8220;need&#8221; is in reference to a particular group.  To the other groups that issue may very well not be seen as a &#8220;need&#8221; until a case for the other groups can be made (if ever).</p>

	<p>The 19th century examples are good for showing unions can have a positive function for the general public but it&#8217;s important to get to the ultimate point that unions may be able to provide a similar public benefit for contemporary issues.<br />
It&#8217;s probably overstepping things to imply that unions are some sort of caretakers for the general public, however, since initially any particular union is concerned with the conditions faced by its membership with general public needs being either ancillary or even antagonistic.</p>
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		<title>By: John Holbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/comment-page-1/#comment-219421</link>
		<dc:creator>John Holbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 09:35:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/#comment-219421</guid>
		<description>Sorry, nbarnes, I think you missed my point, which was just this: lots of people think about unions as things that were useful once, but not so much any more. If that is the case - if people feel this way - the way to overcome their antiunion sentiments is NOT to emphasize things they associate with Dickens novels - like debtors prisons. I don&#039;t actually think that unions are obsolete, but advertising them in 19th century terms is likely to make them seem more antique, to people already inclined to see them that way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sorry, nbarnes, I think you missed my point, which was just this: lots of people think about unions as things that were useful once, but not so much any more. If that is the case &#8211; if people feel this way &#8211; the way to overcome their antiunion sentiments is <span class="caps">NOT</span> to emphasize things they associate with Dickens novels &#8211; like debtors prisons. I don&#8217;t actually think that unions are obsolete, but advertising them in 19th century terms is likely to make them seem more antique, to people already inclined to see them that way.</p>
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		<title>By: NBarnes</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/comment-page-1/#comment-219416</link>
		<dc:creator>NBarnes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 08:54:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/#comment-219416</guid>
		<description>You &lt;i&gt;must&lt;/i&gt; be kidding us, John.  &quot;Obviously we needed unions once upon a time – yeah – but, it looks like, not any longer.&quot; ??!?  Suuuuuuure.  Did you notice some massive upgrade to human nature since the publication of &lt;i&gt;The Jungle&lt;/i&gt; that I just missed?

That&#039;s all way more sarcastic than I want to be, since I know for a fact that John Holbo is about a million times smarter than I am, but, seriously, that post seemed really naive to me.  Labor peonage is the historical rule, not the exception, and the middle class the exception, rather than the rule.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>You <i>must</i> be kidding us, John.  &#8220;Obviously we needed unions once upon a time &#8211; yeah &#8211; but, it looks like, not any longer.&#8221; ??!?  Suuuuuuure.  Did you notice some massive upgrade to human nature since the publication of <i>The Jungle</i> that I just missed?</p>

	<p>That&#8217;s all way more sarcastic than I want to be, since I know for a fact that John Holbo is about a million times smarter than I am, but, seriously, that post seemed really naive to me.  Labor peonage is the historical rule, not the exception, and the middle class the exception, rather than the rule.</p>
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		<title>By: Keith</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/comment-page-1/#comment-219404</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 03:47:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/#comment-219404</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Focusing on 19th century horrors reinforces the sense that unions are an antique solution, not suited to the 21st century.&lt;/i&gt;

Not if you draw a line of continuity and show people that those who say we don&#039;t need unions are the ones also talking about abolishing things that unions have already won, like health benefits and overtime pay. Frame it in terms of tradition and keeping what good we already have and fighting for new benefits that will help people. Keeping it simple and practical though is the key.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Focusing on 19th century horrors reinforces the sense that unions are an antique solution, not suited to the 21st century.</i></p>

	<p>Not if you draw a line of continuity and show people that those who say we don&#8217;t need unions are the ones also talking about abolishing things that unions have already won, like health benefits and overtime pay. Frame it in terms of tradition and keeping what good we already have and fighting for new benefits that will help people. Keeping it simple and practical though is the key.</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Holmes</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/comment-page-1/#comment-219391</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Holmes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 00:25:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/#comment-219391</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t see why free markets and unions should be enemies.  Certainly, unions as they are currently run don&#039;t match up with free market principles, but the same is true of most any business of any substantial size.  I don&#039;t see where one is much worse than the other.  Check that, there&#039;s no Halliburton or Blackwater of unions.

The same principles that guarantee liberty and property work just as well for organizing labor as they do for organizing capital, and free market types should be policy-neutral in the labor-management struggle.  I expect a genuine free market would contain a variety of economic structures, unions included.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t see why free markets and unions should be enemies.  Certainly, unions as they are currently run don&#8217;t match up with free market principles, but the same is true of most any business of any substantial size.  I don&#8217;t see where one is much worse than the other.  Check that, there&#8217;s no Halliburton or Blackwater of unions.</p>

	<p>The same principles that guarantee liberty and property work just as well for organizing labor as they do for organizing capital, and free market types should be policy-neutral in the labor-management struggle.  I expect a genuine free market would contain a variety of economic structures, unions included.</p>
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		<title>By: jholbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/comment-page-1/#comment-219388</link>
		<dc:creator>jholbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 00:02:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/#comment-219388</guid>
		<description>Keith, I&#039;m sympathetic but I don&#039;t think it works so well. Because people who aren&#039;t in unions already look around and say: I&#039;m not in debtors prison. My kids fingers haven&#039;t been cut off yet. Obviously we needed unions once upon a time - yeah - but, it looks like, not any longer. 

Focusing on 19th century horrors reinforces the sense that unions are an antique solution, not suited to the 21st century.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Keith, I&#8217;m sympathetic but I don&#8217;t think it works so well. Because people who aren&#8217;t in unions already look around and say: I&#8217;m not in debtors prison. My kids fingers haven&#8217;t been cut off yet. Obviously we needed unions once upon a time &#8211; yeah &#8211; but, it looks like, not any longer.</p>

	<p>Focusing on 19th century horrors reinforces the sense that unions are an antique solution, not suited to the 21st century.</p>
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		<title>By: Keith</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/comment-page-1/#comment-219381</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:25:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/#comment-219381</guid>
		<description>The argument pro-union is simple:

&quot;You like weekends? Regular pay? Sick leave? How about your kids not getting their fingers cut off in machinery because they  go to school instead of work? Unions did all that and more. The Free Market created debtor&#039;s prison, child labor and the need for a minimum wage, because otherwise, we&#039;d all still be working sixteen hour days, seven days a week, for pennies a day.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The argument pro-union is simple:</p>

	<p>&#8220;You like weekends? Regular pay? Sick leave? How about your kids not getting their fingers cut off in machinery because they  go to school instead of work? Unions did all that and more. The Free Market created debtor&#8217;s prison, child labor and the need for a minimum wage, because otherwise, we&#8217;d all still be working sixteen hour days, seven days a week, for pennies a day.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: jholbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/comment-page-1/#comment-219380</link>
		<dc:creator>jholbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:24:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/#comment-219380</guid>
		<description>Oops, that was me, not Belle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oops, that was me, not Belle.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/comment-page-1/#comment-219377</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:18:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/#comment-219377</guid>
		<description>As I said, Belle, it was a blog post (and a mult-page one), not boiled down to a slogan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>As I said, Belle, it was a blog post (and a mult-page one), not boiled down to a slogan.</p>
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		<title>By: belle waring</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/comment-page-1/#comment-219372</link>
		<dc:creator>belle waring</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 22:57:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/#comment-219372</guid>
		<description>&quot;What would your life be like if, in order to keep your current job, you suddenly had to learn to do the of every person in the company above you, and a couple of your co-worker’s jobs, just to stay employed. Given the choice of that radical new existence or just, say, making a bit of noise to make sure they’re fairly compensated for their work, I’d bet most people would go for the bit of noise.&quot;

Well, I enjoyed the post but I don&#039;t think this would really fly as a general argument because what it doesn&#039;t capture is why the company isn&#039;t shooting itself in the foot by driving away perfectly good talent, in effect, by trying to refuse to pay for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;What would your life be like if, in order to keep your current job, you suddenly had to learn to do the of every person in the company above you, and a couple of your co-worker&#8217;s jobs, just to stay employed. Given the choice of that radical new existence or just, say, making a bit of noise to make sure they&#8217;re fairly compensated for their work, I&#8217;d bet most people would go for the bit of noise.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Well, I enjoyed the post but I don&#8217;t think this would really fly as a general argument because what it doesn&#8217;t capture is why the company isn&#8217;t shooting itself in the foot by driving away perfectly good talent, in effect, by trying to refuse to pay for it.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam C</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/comment-page-1/#comment-219365</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 21:39:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/26/white-collar/#comment-219365</guid>
		<description>Largely OT, but those snippets of Patri are beautiful, and I&#039;ve just added &lt;i&gt;Graphic Witness&lt;/i&gt; to my wishlist. Thanks, John.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Largely OT, but those snippets of Patri are beautiful, and I&#8217;ve just added <i>Graphic Witness</i> to my wishlist. Thanks, John.</p>
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